Australia’s Mona asked a court to reverse its ruling that allowed men inside a women’s only space.
Archived version: https://archive.ph/oHT6U
There shouldn’t be such thing as gender x only spaces. Or race, or sexuality. The women aren’t wrong about their points, but that doesn’t make it an acceptable or thankfully, legal thing to do. I’m sure the guy who sued them did it for all the wrong reasons though. Both sides seem a bit slimy.
I’m all for segregation spaces as long as essential spaces are open to all such as hospitals, parks etc. There are women only gyms where I am and I used to go to them because I felt safer and more comfortable.
This is a slippery slope to things you wouldn’t want to be excluded from, if this appeal wins and creates precident to make much worse places. Thinking this is a feminist battle is narrow minded, selfish, and will absolutely backfire.
But the idea is that everyone can open their own and run it by the rules they want. If you or a group don’t like how one thing is run, there is freedom to open up the same thing but make it open for all. This museum is a private one, rather than run by the government, and therefore they can do what they like. The government ones should be open to all because they are elected by the public.
I’m not at all in favour of forcing everyone to comply to uniformity for the sake of inclusivity but I’m all for ensuring that there are spaces available that are inclusive and that there’s freedom to operate how you like, provided that it doesn’t hurt anyone.
Antidiscrimination law apply everywhere, regardless whether it’s government or public or private. Otherwise America would still have Jim Crow. The laws that stop that stop this too, for the same reason. Discrimination is wrong, full stop. I don’t give a fuck if women want their own spaces, be my guest, but barring people you don’t want and then crying about it is moronic.
I’ve been to lesbian bars with my sister and even though my sister is gay, I got glared at, got scoffs, and sighs. I could tell I wasn’t wanted. It kinda pissed me off, but whatever, I was there to drink with my sister and have fun. Imagine if that was a women only bar and my sister couldn’t bring me. Then imagine all the other lesbian bars my sister wanted to bring me too (because she liked them!) were the same. You get my point. I don’t want to live in that world. Some people do and I say, fuck those nearsighted fools.
So what you’re saying is I can open up a place, put a sign in front with ‘Irish need not apply’ and water fountain inside that says ‘colored only’, and that should be legal according to you?
Only if I’m allowed to open up a space next to you with a water fountain outside and allow everyone in.
In this context, your business plan would severely limit your customer base and therefore end up ruining your own finances than anything else, while my business plan will definitely get more customers.
You plan would only end up working if the society you’re living in is more racist than not, which is not the case in the real world. There’s no need to regulate everything when moral code can do the job just fine.
Or what will happen is all private businesses in communities high in inherent prejudice will exclude certain out groups and pressure any businesses that don’t to either conform or they’ll be boycotted, harassed, and/or vandalized until they go under.
That’s a pretty scary and naïve world view. Luckily you’re not in charge of making the laws (I presume).
So there shouldn’t be girls’ locker rooms either?
Why do we need girls locker rooms when we’ve had the technology for mixed gender locker rooms for generations? We call them doors and use them even in single gender bathrooms.
Certainly it’s inappropriate for sexual predators to be able to leer at girls or women, but there I also no need to have a lack of privacy from those of the same gender, if that’s what people wish.
Apparently you’ve never been in a locker room before.
Modern locker rooms can be built with individual stalls so I understand the point being made. Personally though, it’s less efficient to have a locker room with multiple single-serve rooms. Extra material, extra cost, decreased functional area, additional readying time. If you use a locker room frequently you know how invaluable all those things are.
These are the same excuses given for the enshittification of American bathroom stalls.
Fuck the companies - give the humans the privacy they like. Many locker rooms I’ve been in already have stalls, too - the shower stalls.
So my work did something like this when they moved buildings. Our old locker room was a long rectangular room with lockers on one side, a bench on the other. No privacy once you were in that space.
New one is mixed usage private change rooms and showers. It’s a huge, huge, huge downgrade on the space. So, anecdotally, not on board. The old one still had bathroom stalls and private bathrooms if you needed it. I don’t understand the push to make it all uniform when that’s not the best use for the majority of the users. I’m not sorry about this opinion.
Why do you think that space is a huge downgrade though?
You know who actually want women-only spaces?
Women.
Please share your mental gymnastics for how a rape survivor is supposed to feel safe in your space.
Sincerely, a rape survivor
What about a space for rape victims, male or female? Spaces for survivors of things, people dealing with things, etc. are fine, and if those things only touch women, it’ll naturally only be women, or men who are (let’s argue good faith, here) trying to support someone else. Rape isn’t a female only problem, and so segregating it artificially may feel like a good idea at first glance, but creates other issues.
What about a space for black cop abuse survivors? I’d think that’s pretty inappropriate. It’ll already be mostly black, for sure, and a lot of that perspective will come through, but it’s not a black only issue.
I think the intent behind a safe space is that it is separated from potential triggers. So people who were abused by a man may wish to be in a space with no men, since the sight of men might bring up past trauma. Same for people abused by women. Putting men and women together, even though they have all experienced abuse, may still be exposing them all to the same triggers they want to avoid.
Of course all these people have the same right to having safe spaces, but those spaces don’t have to be in the same place.
So we need a space for women abused by men, women abused by women, men abused by men, men abused by women, and people abused by mascots.
How about if people who want to create safe spaces just create the safe spaces they want to create, and we try to respect their need instead of making sure they’ve covered every corner case an uninvolved third party can imagine?
I’m pretty sure that if there is a large enough community of people abused by mascots in a given locality, someone will create a safe space for those people. The presence of a “safe space for female rape survivors” doesn’t preclude someone who wants to from creating that, nor a safe space for male rape survivors.
The problem I see is bigots using that as cover for their bigotry. “Sorry, this golf club is a safe space for people triggered by black people and women.”
The government would have to decide that the discrimination we like is ok, but the discrimination we don’t like isn’t. Which has incredible potential for abuse when the wrong people end up in charge.
Here’s my problem with that (reasonable) viewpoint.
I think there is a fairly reasonable distinction that could be made between those two scenarios such that it should not be difficult to write the related laws in a way that handles both circumstances appropriately. You can phrase it as “the discrimination we like vs the discrimination we don’t like” but I think that’s overly reductive.
No one using this example (and there are a few) finds it hard to see the difference between a safe space for women and a club for bigots. If we can perceive that distinction, we can describe it with words, and we can legislate accordingly.
Otherwise, we’re deciding not to let people who need them have safe spaces because assholes might take advantage of our permissiveness. I’m not OK with that.
