Dutch beach volleyball player Steven van de Velde, who served time in prison after he was convicted of raping a 12-year-old girl, won his second match at the Paris Olympics and received an even harsher reaction from the crowd on Wednesday than for his first match.
People seem to find it terribly hard to find nuance when something awful like this happened. But losing sight of nuance doesn’t help in any way. Can he participate? Of course he can. Do you need to cheer for him? Of course not, boo as you please, but you’re not helping any one with it.
He was sentenced for his crime, first in England but ultimately he served a sentence according to the Dutch rule of Law, which found him guilty of sexual misconduct of a 12 year old, but not of rape, which in Dutch law is an important distinction. He served his time, he’s had his punishment. You’re more than free to disagree with the Dutch laws and the sentence that he got accordingly. But it’s not up to you. One should be judged by a court, not by the media nor by the public.
I read many people claiming that he has no remorse, quoting all sorts of media coverage. If you think you can judge whether there is remorse based on media coverage you’re awfully mistaken. I’m not claiming he has remorse, but obviously he’ll respond negatively to journalists, and quotes can easily be taken out of context. English media is renowned for being total assholes with zero interest in nuance.
People do horrible things, and this surely is such a thing, but that shouldn’t prevent people from ever participating in society ever again. If we would ban people, make them outcasts forever, that is not helping victims nor prevention in any way. What it will do is increase the taboo, people will refrain from testifying against suspects because even though they want them to be punished, they don’t want media and public going after them and ruining the rest of their lifes. Despite it emotionally being very understandable, this type of shortsighted public outrage is very counter productive and people should use their brains before they rage.
Okay so firstly, use some paragraphs, that was a wall of text.
Secondly, there’s a huge difference between releasing someone from prison after them serving their time and letting them go back to their normal life, and having that individual represent your country on the international world stage where they will gain a lot of fame. You see the problem there, he’s being put in a position of power, or at least he would be if the general public weren’t aware of who he is and what he did.
Fair point about the paragraphs. Other than that I disagree with you.
In the Netherlands you’ll need a certificate of conduct for many positions and if your criminal record is relevant to a position you won’t get the position. This is reviewed on a case-by-case basis by the Ministry of Justice and Security. So if he applied for a job as a coach for children then he would obviously be refused because of his criminal record, given that there’s a direct link to his crime and logically a clear change for recidivism. But his criminal record is not relevant for his position as an athlete. There’s nothing that would stop someone with a criminal record to become famous in such a way. This is not a flaw in the system, it’s a choice that was consciously made. We choose to only limit peoples freedom where there would logically be a big chance of recidivism. We don’t want to ban people to the shadows where they should keep there head down in shame.
Also you seem to be missing the crucial point here: all of it should be decided by rule of law, not by self righteous media-fueled public rage. The media and the public aren’t properly informed nor equipped to weigh these things. The risk of misguided public hatred is immense. That’s not something we should want in our society.
Feel free to disagree but I think we should be very happy that this is the way it is, because this means people actually get a second chance.
Won’t somebody think of the rapist’s feelings?
It’s not at all about that and I never suggested it is.
That’s a lot of words to say “I agree that this dude who raped a 12 year old should be allowed to hang out at the Olympics where a bunch of young teens often compete and then all sleep in close proximity to one another.”
I understand he’s isolated from the other athletes so that doesn’t seem to be the case. The word rape is a misrepresentation of what happened. He hasn’t forced himself on the girl, but it’s misconduct because any sexual contact with a 12 year old is obviously a crime. Still that distinction is important in Dutch law, and rightfully so because obviously forcing yourself on a 12 year old is even worse than consensual sex, and it’s rather bizarre that this is lost in English law and everything is ‘rape’. Again, not defending his actions, but all nuance is lost in this discussion. Yes, to be nuanced you sometimes need more than one sentence.
He
hasn’t forced himself on the girlgroomed a child and convinced her that sex was her idea, but it’s misconduct because any sexual contact with a 12 year old is obviously a crime. Still that distinction is important in Dutch law, and rightfully so because obviously forcing yourself on a 12 year old is even worse thanconsensual sexstatutory rape (because minors can’t consent), and it’s rather bizarre that this is lost in English law and everything is ‘rape’. Again,notit sure sounds like I’m defending his actions, but all nuance is lost in this discussion regarding a man who groomed and raped a 12 year old. Yes, to be nuanced you sometimes need more than one sentence.FTFY
He got the child drunk and groomed her through facebook so calling it consensual is a misrepresentation. He is a pedophile who raped a child. It is your denial and hand wringing over the consequences for your poor rapist that discourages people from coming forward and testifying. You are telling victims to shut up.
I am not at all telling victims to shut up. You just made that up.
Dutch courts haven’t found him guilty of rape, but did find him guilty of having sex with a 12 year old. That itself is more than terrible but calling it rape despite this fact is in fact a misrepresentation of what happened. Sure it was terrible thing that he did and I am not defending his actions at all. I am defending his right to participate in sports events and pleading against trial by media/public outrage.
His trial is over and he was found guilty. I am free to judge him as I please. There is no law that says the public must pretend crimes never happened once the sentence is done. The notion is absurd.
Never asserted that notion. Of course you’re free to do so. I am just saying it’s self righteous and not helping any one.
Interesting! Thank you for sharing this perspective.
Personally, I’m anti-rape.
So am I. Good luck with your self-righteousness.
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If you have any questions or comments about me, you can make a post to LW Support lemmy community.“I was disappointed with the crowd, for sure,” Immers said. “I cannot do anything about his past anymore. I’m here to play with him. … So, yeah, I’m disappointed with it. But I think mentally we’re really strong, and I’m really strong to get through this, together. And we’re going to do that.”
Then:
Immers was asked about the reception and said the two spoke on the court and recognized they would need to be extra supportive of each other. Asked if he understood why they received that reception, he said, “I don’t want to talk about that, if it’s OK.”
So they can bitch that people bboed, but he won’t acknowledge the reason is he raped a literal child?
Fuck that guy, I hope the whole stadium booes anytime he shows his face.
If he was going to pull the “I’m here for volleyball” then he should shut the fuck up 24/7. Not try to play the victim then refuse to admit why they’re booing.
They asked him a question and he answered. If you’re going to be mad at him for saying that then you should be mad at the people who asked the question.
He pulled the “no comment” card tho.
If he won’t talk about why they’re booing, he shouldn’t talk about the booing
But again, he shouldn’t be enabling a child rapist in the first place.
So they can bitch that people booed, but he won’t acknowledge the reason is he raped a literal child?
Mathew Immers is not the guy who raped the child. That is Steven van de Velde.
Immers is van de Velde’s beach volleyball partner.He is complaining that the crowd booed his partner. The partner he chose to play with. But he won’t recognize that the reason the pair is being booed is that one of the partners is a child rapist. I think it’s fair to think that that is bad.
They’re all Emmanuel Goldstein during the two minute hate.
Yes, Immers is the same as Emmanual Goldstein, an unseen character in the novel 1984 who did not even exist but was famous for having refused to discuss a controversy where his teammate repeatedly raped a child.
What was the sentence for his crime?
Do all nations have the same focus on rehabilitation as the US prison system?
Is it possible for an individual to commit such an act and reform themselves, perhaps even earn the trust of society again?
So I’m not overly familiar, but I can try to summarize what I know.
Steven van de Velde is a Dutchman who went to the UK and raped a 12 year-old. He was sentenced to four years in prison for this by a UK court. Later he was extradited to the Netherlands, so he could sit out his sentence in the NL. However in the Netherlands, unlike the UK, sex with a minor is not automatically considered rape and needs to be proven in court. (Note: That is my understanding of the difference in interpretation) Because of this his conviction was reduced to “ontucht”, meaning sexual misconduct. (Even though what he did would probably also be considered rape in Dutch court).
As a result, he was out of prison after 13 months.Now, Dutch attitude to these kinds of things, in my experience, is generally (but not always) that if you have paid your time, and have shown remorse for your actions, then it should probably not affect your future career prospects. The justice system is supposed to rehabilitate after all. (That is my experience though, and my experience may be biased, so don’t take this as gospel)
Hart van Nederland did a survey, and apparently only 27% of respondents think he should not be allowed to compete. 63% of respondents think he should be allowed to compete, and 10% don’t have an opinion either way. (Note that Hart van Nederland is not the most reliable of sources, but it gives an indication)
From what I have seen in Dutch circles this controversy is a lot less pronounced than it is in other countries. That’s not to say it is entirely uncontroversial, but it’s not quite to the same degree as I’m seeing internationally.
Personal opinion:
I don’t think his sentence should have been lowered to “ontucht”. I think what he did is morally reprehensible, and he should have sat out the full sentence for raping a minor. That is a failure on behalf of the justice system though, and van de Velde is not personally to blame for that.
That said, given that he has shown remorse for his actions, and has finished the sentence that the legal system imposed on him, I don’t think he should have been barred from competing in the Olympics on behalf of the Dutch team.Edit: As Flying Squid mentioned I might be mistaken that he has shown genuine remorse.
If he hasn’t that changes my opinion on the matter.given that he has shown remorse for his actions,
Remorse?
After his release in 2017, van de Velde complained about “all the nonsense” reporting on his crime in the media, claiming that the term pedophile did not apply to him, without expanding further.[1][20] At the same time he stated not yet having read any of the reporting he was criticizing.[21] The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) in Britain condemned his comments at the time, stating that his “lack of remorse and self-pity is breathtaking”.[15]
Return to sport
Van de Velde returned to international competition in 2018. He excused himself in an interview, saying about the rapes that occurred when he was 19-years-old, that he: “made that choice in my life when I wasn’t ready, I was a teenager still figuring things out. I was sort of lost”.[22] He has since described it as “the biggest mistake of [his] life”.[23]
The Dutch Volleyball Association allowed him to resume his career as a beach volleyball player. In 2024, he was controversially selected to represent the Netherlands in the 2024 Summer Olympics.[24] However, in order to “establish calm”, the Dutch Olympic Committee isolated van de Velde from the rest of the Dutch team, and barred him from talking to media.[25] An online petition calling for his removal from the Olympics had 80,000 supporters.[26]
His “remorse” was over getting caught. He has never offered the slightest bit of apology to the victim.
If he hasn’t shown genuine remorse than changes my stance.
Given what I had read on the matter I was under the impression he had shown remorse. Particularly the “biggest mistake of [his] life” remark.
That squid guy is quite ridiculous. He regularly throws reason out the window to feed his ego by bashing whomever he can pass shallow judgement upon.
“Not to excuse it in any way but this took place, I think, 10 years ago and I think, as a general rule I think we need to allow for the possibility of rehabilitation,” Mark Adams said at the IOC’s news conference on the day of van de Velde’s debut.
That’s where I think the mob goes wrong. Rape is a pretty big mistake. But, the best people I know today are that way in total rejection of who they once were. They’ve never brought it up. I confront them when I see myself in them.
Van de Velde was given a four-year sentence in 2016.
…at the time of his sentencing that he appeared via video link at Aylesbury Crown Court and wept as he heard his victim ended up self-harming and taking an overdose.
After serving part of his jail term in England, he was sent back to the Netherlands where his sentence was adjusted according to Dutch laws.
…after his release had sought professional counselling.
His actions seem to demonstrate compliance and remorse.
The Dutch volleyball federation (Nevobo) said van de Velde was “proving to be an exemplary professional and human being and there has been no reason to doubt him since his return”.
Meanwhile, the country’s Olympic committee said van de Velde had met all the qualification requirements for the Olympic Games “and is therefore part of the team”.
Those empowered to judge him have judged him forgiven.
On what basis should we believe differently?
We could find a stupid or good reason to discard each and every individual. Humans are deeply flawed. I need not conveniently bash this talented man to feel good about myself. I chose the more difficult and quite unpopular position of forgiveness.
You’re seemingly the only person who understood. You’re true to your username. I liked how you didn’t assign him responsibility for the perceived failure of the justice system. I think it was the critical thing that needed said when saying that he did more than what was mandated. Thank you for speaking up.
Reason wins because propaganda has a much shorter half life.
The US does not have a rehabilitation prison system. We don’t really have a justice system, we have a vengeance system and a torture prison system. I don’t think prison should be torture or a slave plantation for any convict in any case. Although our property crime sentencing is overly harsh and violent crimes against a person are far to lenient. I think rapists need to be removed from society more than anything else, it should be up there with murder one. Also I think most non violent convicts could be on house arrest, work, pay taxes, and not be vengefully tortured.
I’m only intolerant of intolerance. That means I’ll forgive murderers and rapists once they’ve completed their punishment and rehabilitation. But, I also understand that my perspective on forgiveness isn’t common.
A year for multiple rapes if a 12 year old is barely a sentence, no matter what justice system you’re in. And he’s clearly not even sorry.
I think it is important to distinguish the innocent partner here. Beach volleyball is incredibly demanding, and at the elite level, a very low population sport. It takes athletes their whole careers to just to make the world tour hoping to one day reach the olympics. For Immers he has busted his ass for years and at some point his national body probably paired him up with the other guy. It’s possible he may not have even known about it until they were partners and had established their dynamic and working relationship. Finding and building a team with a partner you click with on the court is hard-earned. I can imagine that Immers is absolutely distraught at the situation he’s been put in. He has a crappy choice here no matter what. Abandon what he’s spent his whole career building up to, now that he’s made it - because of something he had nothing to do with, knowing he may never get this chance again, even if he were to find another available partner… it takes years to learn how to play as a team; or he sucks it up, focuses on his own journey, cops the reflected criticism and hostility and tries to keep his emotions out of it…
It’s shitty either way. He abandons his dream because of someone else’s actions; or he chases them and becomes collateral damage.
Don’t get me started on the poor kid whose life was never the same again, having all this trauma dredged up and shoved back in her face. There’s nothing about this that doesn’t suck.
I think it is important to distinguish the innocent partner here
Then he can stop bitching that people are booing his partner who raped a fucking 12 year old.
Pick a lane, “no comment” or acknowledge what he did and ask for forgiveness.
This is literally the Dutch team complaining that people are booing, and refusing to acknowledge an incredibly valid reason why it’s happening.
Fuck em both.
Like you said, it’s a small population of players. Even if this guy was #1 in the Netherlands, if #2 thru 25 said they won’t play with a child rapist, the child rapist wouldn’t be on the team.
Don’t get me started on the poor kid whose life was never the same again, having all this trauma dredged up and shoved back in her face. There’s nothing about this that doesn’t suck.
You think she forgot till now?
You think she doesn’t know his name?
Why is the issue talking about how he’s a child rapist and not that the child rapist is in the goddamn Olympics?
Quick edit:
It’s shitty either way. He abandons his dream because of someone else’s actions; or he chases them and becomes collateral damage.
We don’t call people heroes for doing the right thing because it’s easy and sacrifice free.
But we do call people shit bags for doing the wrong thing for personal gain/glory.
Which is what we’re doing here.
Except you, you’re out here complaining people booed a guy who raped a 12 year old.
Why?
I don’t think that guy’s really complaining about the booing, I think he’s trying to separate the rapist from the other competitors.
I don’t know the case, and I’m very surprised the Netherlands let this guy compete for them, but he is and apparently served prison time (not as much as he probably should’ve). If he’s already served a prison sentence, then the Netherlands government probably believes he has been punished for the crime and is “rehabilited”. If he’s served time, double jeopardy applies to any punishment he would receive after the fact (IIRC).
I don’t know the rapist and I don’t care about him, I’d hope he’s incredibly remorseful and I’m not defending what he did, but like the OP was driving at; why are the actions of the rapist POS who served prison time tainting the other athletes competing for their own interests / country that legally posits the guy has been punished for his actions? Imagine being proud of your work and being booed because of the previous unrelated actions of a coworker you may or may not like.
If murderers are able to serve their prison sentence and be freed after their crime and feel remorse for their actions etc., at what point in time does someone stop being punished for their previous actions? I’m bringing up the rhetorical question in response to the common vitriol in comments surrounding sex crimes that bleeds onto anyone involved.
Unless you believe in the death penalty and that the rapist deserved to die for his actions by the hands of his government, what does it take for everyone to move forward? I ask because you’re positing the other Netherland’s athlete is essentially guilty because he didn’t risk his Olympic ambitions and refuse to play with the rapist who legally served his sentence.
How long he should’ve been in prison is another debate.
That’s not how double Double Jeopardy works (Netherlands also has a different name for it). It prevents you from being tried twice for a crime for which you’ve been acquitted/convicted. It does not prevent a country from refusing to have you represent them on the world stage.
From the US, but the philosophical reasoning still applies.
You misunderstand the point. The Netherlands did not stop him from competing for them, presumably because he’s served his time for the crime by their standards.
That’s your problem with the Netherland’s Olympic committee then, not the other athletes - the whole point of the post.
What point am I misunderstanding? You claimed double jeopardy applies. It does not. Not representing your country in the Olympics does not count as an official punishment for the same act.
The point is he was punished and likely contributed to him not being barred from Olympic participation. Ignore the double jeopardy statement then, engage with the actual discussion about the non rapist.
He deserved the boos.
Just booing?
He went to another country, raped a 12-yo, fled and after conviction, his government - the Netherlands, only decided to give him a year of prison.
There’s an important detail that I’m not really seeing here. The UK gave him an 8 year sentence. The Netherlands negotiated to have him transferred to their jurisdiction, which happened after 1 year served, and then the Netherlands promptly let him go.
Not saying it’s right, but for context:
One legal distinction is that Van de Velde is unlikely to have been convicted of rape had he stood trial in the Netherlands rather than England. In England, sex with a 12-year-old is rape, regardless of the circumstances: an under-16 cannot legally consent. But after he was extradited to the Netherlands, having serving almost a year of his prison sentence, he was released after less than a month. Under Dutch law, his crime was deemed to be the lesser offence of ontucht, sexual acts that violate social-ethical norms.
That, combined with him being on the Olympic team, sorta makes me concerned about Dutch people
I’m not sure what the law ought to be though. I personally think a 16 year old should be legally able to have sex with their 15 year old partner. Maybe in england the difference in age matters. But if not, and a 15 year old legally cannot consent, is this hypothetical 16 year old now a rapist? That doesn’t sound right to me.
A 19 year old having sex with a 12 year old? That is clearly wrong and that’s rightfully already illegal here. But it’s not automatically rape because Dutch law does recognize consent from people under 16. I have no idea at what age people can give consent though. I’m not sure if there is a minimum. But if the 12 year old in this situation did not consent then it would obviously be rape, just to make that clear.
A question: what is the situation in other countries with high schoolers having sex? It must happen all the time that some 18 year old is dating a 15 year old and that they have sex. I think the overwhelming majority of Dutch people would not want that to be illegal, let alone considered rape.
In Germany you can have sex with 14, everything below that is illegal (however the courts can decide not to prosecute if the involved persons both consented, are both under the age of 14, and very close in mental development). Between 14 and 16 you can have sex with people your age ±2 years (14 with 16 or 16 with 18, but not 14 with 17). At 16 to 18 it’s I believe ±3 years, so that with 17 you can have sex with persons up to 20 years old, even though you’re a minor and they’re adults. There are exceptions to this, most notably that if they have any power over you (teachers, bosses, etc), it will count as statutory rape as it’s argued that the victim didn’t have the possibility to refuse without fear of consequences.
odd how jk rowling and the “protect children” crew haven’t said his name once. it’s almost as if jk rowling is pro paedophilia.
From another article:
There are also those, such as the court reporter Chris Klomp, who have argued that he is not the “sex monster” or “groomer” he has been made out to be in some English-language media.
Klomp wrote on X that, although what Van de Velde did was utterly wrong and punishable, he did not physically force the girl to have sex with him. He wrote: “The absence of coercion (other than the age difference) is also evident from the fact that the British court acquitted him of grooming. It was not his intention to ‘persuade her’ into sexual acts.”
Wow. That reporter just made himself look like a pedophile by defending the pedophile rapist that hard.
