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cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/44521474
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What is the excuse for Germany? The US won’t, but can blame AIPAC for holding them hostage. Is there something similar going on there or is it some remnant of guilt from the Holocaust that compels them to assist Israel after all they’ve done?
It is partly guilt from the Holocaust, as in Germany is a big part of the reason Israel exists. So this entire Israel antisemitism plays very different in Germany. Also Scholz Ukraine response was weak and he got a lot of bad press for it, so he tried to go hard pro Israel. At the same time new export permits have not been issued for months, as there is a refusal to deliver any weapons, which could be used for war crimes, while being the largest donor to Palestine.
So a weird situation. The US going hard on Israel would help a lot though, to clean that up.
Thanks for the insight! I wish we could go harder on Israel here, but with our outrageously stupid ruling that corporations are people and money is speech, we now have all political parties beholden to large money influence because you can’t limit the freedom of speech… :(
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Yes and no. Germany did not give citizenship to any Holocaust surviver, but it did restore citizenship to former German citizens pretty much as soon as the allies took control and it ended up being part of the Basic Law in 1949 as well. Otherwise Jews were supposed to be treated as citizens of their respective countries. So Soviet Jews were supposed to be treated as aliens, since they were Soviet citizens.
They could have gone back to their country of origin and some did, but Israel seemed like a better option compared to destroyed Europe.
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It is also a veil for anti-muslim racism, painting antisemitism as “imported” by muslims (despite German Nazis being the main perpetrators of antisemiticm crime) and taking the support for Israel as “proof” of not being bigoted.
Bonus points for using it to attacked progressive leftists and label them as antisemitic or terror supporters without having to engage with their demands. Also the fascists from the AfD and now the CDU are using it to push around the less fascist parties. They made “unconditionally supporting Israel” a ritual to prove how good or bad people they are. So when the AfD demands something in regards to Israel the SPD, Green and others try to top it. Can’t be that the Nazis are better friends of Israel than they are…
Meanwhile these things are used to repress non zionist Jews, who get disproportionately affected by getting their funding cut in culture and science, being excluded from events and even being attacked by “anti-antisemitism commisioners”, with accusations like being “allegedly jewish”. So Germany is back to classifying who are “good” and who are “bad” Jews.
It has nothing to do with logic or consistent values. It is a psychotic hysteria.
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You’re getting downvoted because, for all their faults, the SPD is not run by fascists, quasi-fascists or “morally conflicted fascist-adjacent”. Neither has this ever been the case, nor is it going to happen in the foreseeable future. You’re not even in the ballpark of correct. Best case scenario is that you like to use the word “fascist” inflationarily. But even that wouldn’t be much better, as it effectively downplays the threat of and the horrors committed by actual fascists.
If you’d referred to the SPD as a party run by something like a cumulation of unimaginative, spineless and corrupt conservatives larping as social democrats, there’d be some grounds for discussion. This, instead, just makes you look like a troll.
To be honest, I’m only replying because I do not want your comment to stand on its own.
Even though the comment is removed now, I’d like to add that equating social democrats with fascism, i.e. ‘social fascism theory’, kind of lead to the disunity in the fight against the NSDAP from the communist side (KPD). This is not supposed to downplay the actions of the SPD during and in the emergence of the Weimar republic, but ‘social fascism theory’ didn’t help 1930s antifascism nor do I think does it help 2020s antifascism.
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“We have not decided not to supply weapons. We have supplied weapons and we will supply weapons,” Scholz told parliament
So the word “soon” that is in the title — did that come from Scholz or is it an invention on the part of Reuters?
Scholz used the word “soon”, but referring to deliveries in general, not weapons. Character-wise it should be noted that Scholz is an absolute master at not saying anything as well as saying things: If he did want to say something we wouldn’t be discussing whether he said something.
The government is overall quite keen on not explicitly saying that they’ve stopped weapons exports, for the time being. Reason being that they can’t legally issue export licenses. They can’t go to parliament, either, saying “erm we should scratch those paragraphs about not exporting weapons when there’s signs they could be used in a genocide”, that’s political suicide, and they can’t overrule the ministerial level (which makes those assessments) either, any such attempt would be a) illegal and b) leak instantly and thus be c) political suicide. Also I don’t think any of the ruling parties is in any way keen on exporting weapons to Israel. Stuff like air defence systems, sure, but even that must be weighed against Ukraine’s needs.
And they also can’t say that Israel is committing genocide. That wouldn’t be straight-out political suicide but it would force a discussion that noone wants to have, sitting things out, hoping that Israelis get their shit together and get rid of that Kahanite government, looks way more inviting.
I wonder if repeatedly attaking un peacekeepers will affect this?
Well, the announcement came as Israel made a new offensive into northern Gaza, ethnically cleansing the area and slaughtering more journalists and doctors and after UNFIL made statements about being threatened by the IDF.
So it seems to be about showing support for these actions in a plausibly deniability kind of way.
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So many removed comments…
I went and double checked community info, yet I can’t understand why mine was removed. Probably some German moderator seeing antisemitic content everywhere 🤷♂️
Fwiw, yours was the one I was least sure about removing. You’re right, there are a lot of clearly civilian victims. The way you worded it seemed a bit too inviting for another rage thread though.
My comment was simply pointing out how Germany’s been involved in genocide at least twice in modern history.
I’d appreciate if someone would challenge me with a sound argument rather than censoring me.
Your comment was literally just “What is it with Germans and genocide?” Besides the one interpretation you suggest, there are a lot of other possibilities.
In any case, if a thread had started from your comment, do you think it could have been a productive one?
Okay, let’s just say I’m that dense. How else would you interpret my comment? How unproductive would the thread be?
E.g. “It must be a genetic thing” or “Gee, they just have a genocidal culture” or …
The way you phrased it also suggests the direction the discussion will go: It’s not going to be about genocides, it’s going to be anti-German, although genocides are unfortunately fairly common among humans. (Of course, “genocide” is a somewhat mushy politically-applied term as well which doesn’t help.)
I’d understand the thread as author intended. Just my 5 cents. And honestly, it’s time to talk openly about it, even though the thread could diverge - in that case, weed the offensive comments, not censor beforehand.
Lemme guess…
You’re German, and you’re very proud of your country.
I get that. It’s good to be proud of your country, but it’s also good to be open to other point of views.
Hi, ok, while I disagree, thanks for letting me know. Perhaps we need some rage to end the horrors going on in Middle east…
This community is overmoderated, they frequently remove slightly offtopic comments. You can see this in the modlog.
But in this case there were some really extreme comments calling for violence.
I will report your comment because it’s also noise, and they will remove it I’m sure.
Now I won’t do it. 🐧
I will remove my comments anyway. I don’t agree with your moderation policy, so I don’t comment here as frequently as before, and remove most of my comments after some day as a protest.
While I can’t stop you, please do not do that.
As to your criticism of overmoderating: I am not removing every off-topic discussion either. What I am sometimes doing is removing comments that just say “Good.” or “Bad.”, etc., especially if it’s the third such comment under that particular post. I don’t find these helpful. I am open to no longer doing that.
As to posts from you that I removed:
- There was a meme early on — which we ultimately decided is content better suited for !YUROP, the rule was made in response to your meme, I think. That was really unfortunate.
- You also posted a video of right-wing ultras shouting “Palestine” — which I removed I wasn’t sure what message to take from it, as it was basically uncommented. I also wouldn’t want to moderate in a community of uncheckable raw footage where I don’t know whether it is manipulated. — Quite honestly, I don’t know what mods in war-related communities like the various versions of !Ukraine do.
I really appreciate a mod that takes the time to discuss specifics of removed content. I think the same way on removing lazy comments like ‘Good’ or ‘Germany evil’.
On the other hand I saw in the modlog a reason to remove being ‘Trolling’. The specific comment ironically suggested Germany enjoys producing genocide. The comment could have been more elaborated, but I think the irony is more important than the truthness of the statement.
If we are not allowed to confront genocide with even sarcasm, what else can we do besides crying?
That’s exactly what I call overmoderation. The upvote-downvote system should deal with that.
Banning nazis, and what you did in this comment section was correct, and I think that’s what mods should do. But deleting random things you call noise and deleting comments which are actually related to the topic, but not in the format you want (not in English or not text but images) will kill this community on the long run.
How do I get to the modlog?
On desktop, sidebar of the community -> Modlog button. This link is on their instance: https://feddit.org/modlog/5765
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So many removed comments…
It seems the removed comments are from always the same few users …
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Never again*
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Yeha and those pesky children and UNIFIL peacekeepers…
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Palestinians are to blame for beeing used as civillian shields? Are palestinians like some terrorists for you?
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So did the Israelis for Netanyahu
I don’t understand how this isn’t an obvious problem with the argument that “they voted for Hamas.” If you paint all Palestinians with this brush, the exact same logic can be used to paint all Israeli as warmongering genocidal psychopaths. Or perhaps that conclusion is tacitly accepted by the people making the argument and therefore using the reverse as justification for their actions is kosher.
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Most people in Gaza were not born yet when the last election was held. The median age of Gazans in 2020 was 18. Also, 1. was it a free and fair election? 2. was there good alternatives? 3. Does that mean the children deserve to die? 4. What do you think happens to the children thay grow up in a genocide? Do you think they a) become upstanding, healthy citizens? or b) become radicalized? Violence leads to more violence. Noone is born a terrorist, but Israels far right government’s genocide is creating them.
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If Israel is expecting Palestinians to get rid of Hamas, why aren’t they giving them the weapons necessary to do so? Arm the PLO and be done with it.
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And then hamas went into authorian mode and stopped the voting and rights like 15 years ago…
So its not actually that the palestinians are still supporting their stance.
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