Oh noooo, he suffered a few days and then got to hang out with his dad in heaven for eternity and be worshipped by billions of people. What a sacrifice!
Idk man I don’t think I would be okay with being nailed to a cross even if i knew it meant living in heaven for eternity
It happened to a huge amount of people. The Romans crucified so many people, it was so common place, that they didn’t even bother to write down how they did it. All I’m saying is, it wasn’t a unique form of suffering that was particularly difficult to Jesus vs thousands of other people in history. If the difficulty of the death was the measure, he didn’t go that far out of his way.
Being common doesn’t make it any less unpleasant
I just know there are Christians out there that have a very tenuous grasp on why exactly Jesus is the savior in Christianity and many think it’s because his death was UNIQUELY painful. The idea that it was uniquely painful is very much nonsense, or we’d have a lot of saviors. He had a horrible but common place death.
Yeah but if he wanted he could have gotten something way more exotic, like being filled with spiders.
Fair enough, but I also don’t think that we should consider a few days of suffering for an eternity of basically being god much of a sacrifice.
I wouldn’t take an eternity of existence under any circumstances for anything. Please just let me fucking die when I’m done.
I wouldn’t want the worship, but not being a regular mortal, having powers and omniscience and the like? Sure, I’d like that. Maybe I could make reality suck less for others.
Under any circumstances for anything
there’s billions of ways others have died a worse death - I’ll take a crucifixion knowing I’ll get eternal life in heaven any day of the week.
Well, according to the renowned astrophysicist Belinda Carlisle, heaven is a place on earth.
The earth will eventually be swallowed by the sun.
Living for an eternity means that you will be alive when the earth is swallowed by the sun, you will live in that crushing depth. Until the sun is either swallowed by a black hole, or ripped apart by the ceaseless expansion of spacetime, ultimately ripping your eternal soul with it.
Uhh. Billions of ways? Lol the mythology describes a pretty fucking gruesome way to die. Whipped, beaten, nailed to a cross, stabbed, and left to suffocate.
Uhh. Billions of ways?
Okay, I’m exaggerating for effect. That said, I’m not saying it isn’t gruesome. I’m saying the “sacrifice” pales in comparison to everyday horrors that happen to real people who aren’t promised eternal bliss for the loss of a single weekend. Just look at what the cartels post online, much worse options.
I would put being stabbed in the gut, shot, set on fire, and then drowned up slightly higher. For context one of my ancestors encountered a bandit who was strangely durable.
My take: death was preferable to living in the world his dad controled.
“You’re not a God, you’re just a jerk!”
There’s a significant amount of rape in the BIble. And a lot of it is condoned.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say sex slavery is a bad thing. But it sure does like talking about how all of those divine kings had concubines.
Or maybe that’s not a sin 😏
“Spilling seed” is a sin… So confirmed that Jesus saw it and thought it was worth forgiving by dying on a cross for.
Eh. The thing Catholics use to say spilling seed is a sin is them completely misunderstanding what was happening.
So this dude Onan’s brother died without giving his wife any sons (or maybe children in general, I don’t remember). So according to tradition at the time, Onan was supposed to provide her with a son. But once he gave her a son, his job would be complete and he wouldn’t get to bang her anymore. So he pulled out.
The problem here wasn’t that he spilled his seed, it was that he spilled his seed in order to keep banging his brother’s widow.
But the Roman Catholic Church at some point was like, “OMG masturbation must be bad too!” So they decided that masturbation should he called “Onanism.” Which is ridiculous, dude is famous for pulling out, not jackin’ it.
🙄
Today I learned
Yeah I really don’t care about why it’s that way. I’m atheist. I just know that’s what I was told when they were attempting to indoctrinate me my entire childhood. It’s also part of why I quoted it… and why I treated it as the joke that it is.
But…
The problem here wasn’t that he spilled his seed, it was that he spilled his seed in order to keep banging his brother’s widow.
So the idea is that succumbing to hedonism is the problem (desiring the act over his duties)… of which I’m sure we can all agree that masturbation is basically 100% of the time outside of let’s say clearing the chamber after a vasectomy or some other medical procedure. It makes sense regardless why catholocism would come to that conclusion based on their faith in the fictitious book regardless.
It’s less about succumbing to hedonism, and more the fact that he was disobeying God (and trying to screw the women he was banging out of an inheritance).
He was supposed to impregnate his brothers widow to provide her with a son. This was a “levirate” marriage - essentially, the son would considered his brother’s and would inherit his brother’s property. Women didn’t inherit property, so this was a common practice to make sure that widows were taken care of.
Onan pulled out because he didn’t want to get her pregnant - he wanted the inheritance for himself. So he was being a massive douche, and deserved it.
Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great
If a sperm is wasted, god gets quite irate!
“Spilling seed” is a sin…
First off, I’ve never read the Bible, so apologies for any ignorance I’m about to display.
Second, how literal are we talking here? Like, do backshots count as “spilling seed”? What if she’s a spitter, is she doomed to eternal damnation? Is hot creampie sex the only legal sex, according to the Bible?
Specifically, when you’re having sex with the widow of your brother who died before he was able to give her an heir with the purpose of ensuring she has an heir in your family as is your religious duty, it’s a sin to pull out before ejaculating.
You’re right, that is specific
Well any other answer would be interpretation and speculation
yes, doing backshots is “spilling seed”
I have no fucking clue… I think it’s crazy. But the idea that Jesus witnessed all of that and decided that dying to absolve us of it all is fucking hilarious.
I just like the idea that he saw a donkey show and said, “yep… that’s worth dying for!”
Is hot creampie sex the only legal sex, according to the Bible?
I do believe so…
Don’t kink shame Jesus. He was human like all of us
No shame. Anything consenting adults want to do is fine. Just don’t be weird and talk to me about your private affairs in public.
I find it hard to believe spilling it is more of a sin than saving it in a jar in the fridge.
I find it hard to believe spilling it is more of a sin than saving it in a jar in the fridge.
He saw that too… and died for it. So it must be worth it.
maybe that’s what made their deity decide to die. seeing the future blast rope to waluigi and then save it in a jar
Must be the most divine act to make the son of god die to save it.
It would be disrespectful to stop at this point.
Is that pre or post Jesus bible?
This is a thing Christians do all the time. “Well that was before Jesus.” Jesus never condemned rape or slavery (in fact, he told slaves to obey their masters). Jesus had four whole gospels to tell people to not rape and he didn’t. He also didn’t say anything negative about Solomon and his 300 concubines. In fact, he praises Solomon multiple times and says nothing about the sex slaves whatsoever.
So it doesn’t matter if it’s “post Jesus” because he laid out the rules very concisely and “don’t rape your sex slaves” was not one of them.
I was just trying to figure out where it was located lol
Sorry, I was expecting the common excuse Christians give. Yes, just the old Testament. Apologies for misunderstanding.
Now I get why the incels are excited with the ultraconservative agenda.
They say “biblical values” and incels hear “free rape.”
“blasting rope” the synonyms for masterbation continues to grow longer
This is the internet, you can say masturbation, you know.
that was a spelling mistake but I’m gonna keep it as another synonym now lol
I don’t understand why people are making it such a big deal. Jesus died, yes, but he has risen from the dead after a few days. So basically he only died for a weekend, for the human race. “Oh what a brave man! He gave up his weekend!” There are other people who did much more for the human race, like Fritz Haber for example. Also, necromancy isn’t allowed according to the bible, so zombie Jesus broke the rules.
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Hahaha and his dad didn’t even beat him or told him he’s a disappointment
Fritz Haber for example
I mean… Haber isn’t exactly a giant of morality and ethics. He did invent most of the chemical weapons utilized in WW1, and expressly defended their use as weapons.
He tried to kill people and ended up helping feed the world, then he tried to feed people and ended up helping the Holocaust. The guy is a fascinating historical figure but definitely a was a monster.
Yeah, and helping feed people wasn’t exactly his original motivation for the haber-bosch process either. During the late 19th century empires were running low on natural sources of nitrates for making gun powder, as the British had held a near monopoly of the guano mines in South America and India.
Judging by this, his time as an artillery man for the prussians, his combustion research after he finished the haber process, and his over all obsession with creating weapons of war… It’s pretty safe to assume fertilizer was an afterthought.
I wasn’t super clear but that’s what I was referring to with the “tried to kill people, and helped feed people instead”.
When he tried to feed people he came up with what eventually was used to make Zyklon-B.
Oh, nope. Rereading it, you’re totally right. Just a little of my dyslexia seeping in lol. My bad!
zombie Jesus broke the rules
Even living Jesus broke the rules. According to the
fanficgospel of John, Lazarus was dead for four days before Jesus resurrected him. It’s where the line “Jesus wept” comes from.The entire bible if filled with contradicting stories, with incest, child abuse and murder. Nice book as reference for a better life 👌
Realistically, the Bible is a compilation of cherry-picked stories ranging from historical fiction to high fantasy, written by dudes who weren’t alive at the time, in a language nobody speaks anymore, translated a dozen times, losing important historical and grammatical context each time, with parts added/removed/rewritten at the ruling political and religious leaders’ fancy. I want to read the version where a Bethlehem resident wanted to confirm Mary’s post-natal virginity by hand, but the pope won’t let me.
Damn. It isn’t dope the pope said nope.
Also, the book is interpreted the way people want to interpret as an excuse to support their bad behavior. It’s veeeeeery convenient there are so many versions out there, as a result of loose translations and copying by hand by monks for several hundred years. Just pick the version you like the most and you’re free to abuse kids and be a racist homophobe transphobe piece of shit.
If any gospel is least fanfic it’s John. The Synoptics are younger
Jesus wasn’t a zombie, Jesus was a lich.
Edit: found the pic!
I’m kinda bummed out about necromancy though :/
Yeah me too, my favorite hobby but instead I’m only allowed to indoctrinate kids.
Fritz Haber… For the Haber-Bosch process or chemical weapons?
During WW1 he killed millions by developing chlorine gas, among other poisoness gasses, but he saves billions by discovering how to synthesize fertilizer. Without that discovery, most of the world population would have died from starvation, if not all.
You can lean to scientists like Norman Borlaug who saved billions without becoming a merchant of death.
Yeah but where’s the fun in that. Than Jesus died for nothing haha
Fossil fuel based fertilizer has also contributed to global inequality - synthetic fertilizer is 3-4 times cheaper in Europe than Africa.
And the cheapness of nitrogen fertilizer has led to massive problems with too much fertilizer ending up in the ocean, sparking algae blooms and subsequent oxygen starvation. Just look at the Baltic Sea.
atmospheric nitrogen is a fossil fuel
the fertiliser made itself more expensive in africarun-off is a huge problem, though
Yeah but who cares about Africa and climate, rich white people have stocked up supermarkets with products from around the world. Like New Zealand wine next to Chile wine in stores in France. Like… Ok… Australian mineral water in the Netherlands… With the highest quality tap water ever…
Capitalists be like “Jesus gave up his weekend, you can too!”
Dead Friday night and alive by sunrise Sunday morning. 18 hours dead at most.
I don’t know how long days are where you live, but dead Friday night and alive on Sunday morning means he was dead the entire Saturday, which over here means he has been dead for at least 24h plus the hours on Friday night and Sunday morning. Still kinda lame, dead for a few hours for the entire human race, both in the past and future. Is that all it takes?
I meant to say 36 but it was before I had my coffee.
Those are the moments I usually fuck up too. If Jesus would have died for 2 more days, maybe we wouldn’t need our black god juice to function normally. But no, Jesus was a lazy fuck.
For some reason I am most inclined to comment on lemmy in the morning while my coffee is brewing. The absolute worst time for brain activity.
Hahaha yeah me too
Nah, nights dont count, he was asleep.
Fuck no, bunch of hookers and cocain, sleeping is for losers.
Not surprising as much of online conservatism these days is just gooning. They’re all porn addicts who cry about the wokes taking away their softcore porn from their video games.
meanwhile I’m looking for better porn in real videogames. So far, nothing beats skyrim. Games that advertise having porn are shit video games, and most video games have terrible excuses for porn. Why can’t the two come together?
Coming together is a rare and beautiful thing
Try the Flip Witch: The Forbidden Sex Hex
Its the post nut clarity…
TBH I can imagine people sent him to watch the passion as a result of the aforementioned post lol.
The christian tradwife fetish is just about a free use full time submissive with a twee aesthetic, so I’m not that surprised
Go peruse the old testament and realize ypu would get demonitized for reading it aloud on youtube.
Pervertus inceptus romanus
duality of man
Yes, that’s what jesus died for.
This and blasting rope to waluigi hentai.
One where he uses his feet to crush watermelons, specifically
Jesus died so we could have bread. He is risen!
Also, rape porn is very much in keeping with biblical values.
I would thank Jesus for bread, but didn’t we have the stuff figured out quite a while before he showed up?
y’all need a good cook named Jesus in your lives. you get to thank Jesus personally and also swap baking tips.
well the bread they were eating was most likely a flatbread that did not have any yeast. Someone who has a better idea of the history please come in and prove me wrong.
The Jews that predate Jesus were making bread with yeast (and probably other cultures were too). The holiday Passover is celebrated with matzah, a cracker like flat bread that doesn’t have yeast, because the Jews had to leave Egypt in a hurry and couldn’t bring yeast with them and instead subsisted on matzah.
Yeah that’s what I was thinking. Matzah.
“Take this and eat it” works in either context.
Jesus died so the bread could rise. blessed be the yeast.
Lot would be so proud he’d throw you a daughter🥲
Throwing your daughter out to save your traveling guest’s ass from being raped is also an option.
Judges 19 for the curious
Telling everyone the reason both your daughters are pregnant with your babies is because they got you drunk, or that girls shouldn’t get too huffy if it’s their own brother that raped them - also options.
Genesis 19:30-38 and 2 Samuel 13:20-22
Bible, full of stories that are all about fun for the whole family
Maybe two!
I’m a Christian myself, but I swear - zealous or ostentatious Christians are some of the meanest, nasties and most awful people I know.
Coming from deeply catholic region, I know lots of such people. They will judge you for not being like them, they will absolutely try to convert you, and they are definitely the most hateful and straight out ignorant people I ever met.
I don’t blame the religion though, because these people are obviously not following Jesus, but rather the spiteful catholic church.
“There’s no hate like christian love.”
How do you reconcile being a good person, with respecting other people’s beliefs, and not trying to convert people?
By your own system of belief, your inaction allows evil to reign.
I absolutely do blame religion for some the worst behaviours exhibited by believers, as it puts them in an impossible position.
If a genuine believer loves a non-believer, how can they be a good person within their own world view, if they do not try to save them?
But if they do try to save them, they will fail to be good person in the world view of the person they are trying to save.
You can’t do both, and as far as I can tell, most religions work this way.
To treat people with real respect believers universally have to engage in some of the most precarious double-think I can imagine.
It isn’t fair to anyone that you have to “suspend your disbelief” for reality the way we do for fiction, just to come across as a reasonable person.
I might be able to help here! Trying to save/convert someone can look a lot of different ways, but what almost never works is aggressively pursuing someone. The best way is to live by example and just engage in theological conversations when they come up, not by pushing but mainly by being curious and asking questions.
With this method it is quite easy to have friends from different belief systems. Everyone is on their own journey and sometimes it takes a lifetime, but being pushy is never a good option.
As long as you’re equally prepared to be deconverted.
I have argued theists into corners, and at that point they disengage, or begin to pick and choose what parts of what I’m saying they will acknowledge.
The problem for me, is that for me to let you be, I just need to be ok with you believeing in some things that aren’t real. As long as your conduct is acceptable and fair, I have no reason to intervene aside from a respect for truth.
Still, all religion is harmful, because belief in the unreal distorts reality, and impacts how you vote and make consequential decisions, affecting humanity as a whole. Individual behaviour is mostly benign, but as institutions religions are wrecking balls rolling through civilisation and history.
Even here you talk about how you wish to convince me by “living by example” as if religion provides something I would want, that I can’t have any other way. All it has to offer are lies, and I have refused to believe them. Nothing you can say or do is more convincing to me than whatever a Muslim, Hindu, or the ancient greeks, might say.
But still, to placate your own sense of guilt, you might pray for me. But then, you’re not letting me be. You’re not accepting the way I’ve chosen to live life. If you want god to intervene, you’ve rejected me, and my choice.
This is what “there is no hate like christian love” refers to. You will openly express love, while completely failing to understand that your beliefs reject parts of who some people are. You do not love us. You do not accept us. You feel like you do and you say that you do.
But all thats felt at the other end, is the rejection. The knowledge that someone who is supposed to care about you, deep in their heart, with the fiery passion of religious conviction, believes that something about the way you are, is so deeply wrong, that you deserve literal eternal punishment.
Do you have any idea how deeply that wounds?
This simple reality turns the love you feel and attempt to express for someone, into the most vile, abhorrent, twisted feeling of rejection it is possible to inflict on another. And the more you express it, the more it hurts. Some people kill themselves because of it.
Those of us who maintain friendships with you, simply ignore that part of how you feel. I can’t do it. I can’t be friends with someone who thinks I’ll go to hell for being me. They’ll never convert me, and if they are ok with that, I can barely stand being in the same room. And if they do try to convert me, refer back to my second paragraph.
How are you able to love me, and also let me be, even as you genuinely believe that “my journey” ends in eternal suffering? Or how can you expect me, to accept someone who can do that, as a genuinely good person?
About to be the first Lemmy comment I save. These points are so solid and never would have thought about.
As long as you’re equally prepared to be deconverted.
Totally agreed on this point! To have a fruitful theological conversation, all parties ideally would have set aside emotion and bias in order to pursue the truth. That is much easier said then done, but is something I think we should all strive for.
You have included a lot more here than I have the time to respond to sadly (hopefully someone else will) but I’ll respond to your last point:
How are you able to love me, and also let me be, even as you genuinely believe that “my journey” ends in eternal suffering? Or how can you expect me, to accept someone who can do that, as a genuinely good person?
I can’t say I’m a genuinely good person, but I would say that it comes down to respecting the persons individual autonomy. For example, if I have a friend who has a habit that I consider destructive, I wouldn’t join them in the habit, but my love for them shouldn’t change. I would be sad that the trajectory (in my opinion) would end with suffering but as their friend, I should lead by example in what I think is a better life and keep hoping that they see where I’m coming from. Plus, maybe they will convince me the other way on this or other topics!
My general life philosophy is to question everything. You will either end up with a more solid foundation in what you believe or you will have one of those awesome paradigm shattering events. Either way though, an open mind is required and I’d encourage you to keep listening to those you disagree with. You may be surprised!
I’ve deconstructed theological “logic” to the point of boredom.
I can’t say as a secular thinker that I’m anything like “open-minded” to religion. I used to describe myself as agnostic, but that is a mere stop along a road to the truth of anti-theism.
And that road absolutely has a “wrong” direction. At this point, there is zero chance of anyone converting me. No-one has ever said a word to me that managed to shake that conviction even for a second. I’m at a point where I fail to see the point of religion even as a mere human institution of utility. All it seems to do is twist perception of reality en-masse, causing all the evil it does, and making all the good it does less efficient.
Both sides do not need to be open to convincing, for us to have a discussion about whether Santa exists. We can still talk about it even if one us knows he doesn’t. And I would consider an adult changing their mind on Santas non-existence, to be an obvious regression. A child who is never falsely told by anyone that Santa exists, will never need to have that belief dispelled. The very same things are true for religious discussion.
It’s not even that I won’t listen anymore. It’s merely that where I am now, I starting to hear the same arguments repeatedly, to the point that I can regularly re-use counter-arguments.
You speak of behaviour you’d consider destructive, as if we’re talking about things a person chooses to be. We are not. Your god will judge me based on a set of a couple reasonable, and great very many arbitrary standards, obviously set for the convenience of those in power when they were written/last updated.
I hope you have your paradigm shift. Religions are born from human lies, and sometimes truths worshipped beyond reason. As such I will never see where people subscribing to them are “coming from”. I can understand, but never agree.
The very definition of faith is belief without evidence, and I have never met a religious person who claims to have evidence, who isn’t just interpreting circumstances, or mistaking their inner monologue for the voice of god.
Let me put it in much fever words.
How can you claim to love me, even as you accept a god that judges me deserving of literally infinite pain? If I am truly that bad, how can I possibly deserve your acceptance?
And if I’m not that bad, how can you be ok with worshipping a god, that so insanely arbitrarily, condemns someone you love?
You cannot save me. The only way out for me, in your belief system, is for your god to spare me. But you and me both know you don’t worship that kind of god.
And if you’re not dogmatic you can pick and choose the beliefs you learn from friends that work best with your worldview.
I love learning about all the religions - one doesn’t have to believe in them to see their pros and cons.
How do you reconcile being a good person, with respecting other people’s beliefs, and not trying to convert people?
Proselytization is against Judaism. Someone who follows Judaism properly would be meeting all of those points.
That’s not to say all Jews are following Judaism properly. glares at israel in contempt
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How so? Jesus has a number of very specific teachings, foremost among them being to love your neighbor as yourself. Calling people out for calling themselves Christians while obviously ignoring the central tenet of his message is no different than calling out someone who calls themself a vegan while obviously eating a bucket of KFC.
The No True Scotsman fallacy is when you declare a label (Scotsman) to be conditional on some unrelated factor (putting sugar in porridge) instead of the actual condition (being from Scotland).
Following the tenets of Jesus is the definitive condition of being a “Christian”. Going to a church every week and singing the songs doesn’t make you a Christian any more than going to the farmer’s market and chanting in protests makes you a vegan. It doesn’t matter what you call yourself if you don’t do the thing you’re singing about.
That’s religious people for ya. I know how it seems like a good foundation for morale and philosophy to believers, but really there’s a point where you need to stop believing in Santa Claus and build morale on your own.
It might help you realize how many “sins” are meant to control you and how many other accepted or ignored toxic traits should be condemned.
Very much true, for the most part the religion is used as an utility to control and exploit masses.
The ruleset is very vague in itself and varies from religion to religion. To me, it’s all about being true to yourself. If you truly believe that you’re doing the right thing, you probably are. But that’s probably a massive simplification.
Mind if I ask what denomination? I found the Episcopal church and it genuinely helped me feel like a Christian again. As a gay man (who also posts porn sometimes!), and growing up Baptist, I never felt like I couldn’t be a follower of Jesus, but I also never felt like I could be part of a community of followers of Jesus, and the Episcopal church helped me find that community again for the first time since childhood.
I’m talking particularly about the catholic church, but that is still the case for all the more conservative denominations and sects, like Fundamentalists or Jehova followers.
I myself am an independent Christian, but my wife is catholic and sometimes I have to go to the church with her. The things the priests say during the masses are just horrid, even in the more secular areas.
It’s unbelievable to me that these scum made people believe that their corporation is the only true middleman between the people and the God.
And Protestant. And Mormon. And Muslim. And Buddhist. All religions are capable of that.
And capitalists, who beg for government handouts. And communists, who want strong control by a very unequal authority figure. Every belief system really - anyone who says “not like that”, who doesn’t even see the contradiction.
Like “Doctor” Oz - anyone can turn their back on the precepts they claim to have supported.
He died so you can sin. Would be a waste of a good blood sacrifice to live a pure life if your god is just handing out grace.
It is a waste, good loves the smell of a burnt offering more, and they chucked him down a hole instead
How selfish is it to be happy somebody saw no other option but to suicide to save everybody else?
Jhon jumped on the granade and saved all of us, but we should not cry for him, we should be happy because his sacrifice meant we all survived!
The most basic shit fly off the window when it comes to Jesus.
Sir this is a Wendy’s
I wonder what happen if I hacked any preacher or pastor’s phone and/or PC?
They probably responded by saying Christians aren’t perfect just forgiven
Not a christian ( or religious person ) but there is a whole lot of r/atheism in this thread holy fuck
There is. Imagine going crazy on a shitposting sub post in a niche social media.
The fact that I got downvoted over this is showing me that the lemmy that I once knew before the exodus is not here anymore.
Really a shame
