most of the artifacts are not stolen. Most of those people in the middle east didnot care a long time about their cultural heritage. in fact, they even sold a lot of it to european museums. especially as many countries said: it was made before Mohammed so its unislamic crap. A lot would have been lost if it wasnot preserved by western museum. now, as the realize what they had, they want it back for free. Very strange attitude
Absolutely, remember ISIS blowing up all those old monument and artifacts not too long ago? Put more Middle Eastern artifacts in European museums, quickly
Very sad, but it would have been much worse we’re it not for the sacrifices of people like Khaled al-As’ad. He sacrificed himself by not revealing the location of antiquities to ISIS thus ensuring their survival for now.
Egyptians were using mummies as firewood. So much more would’ve been lost if it weren’t in western countries that valued the historic significance of these antiquities.
Since the 12th century, Europeans had been eating Egyptian mummies as medicine. In later centuries unmummified corpses were passed off as mummy medicine, and eventually some Europeans no longer cared whether the bodies they were ingesting had been mummified or not.
And? Its not directly below the monument and won't damage anything. What it will do is replace the main road that already goes right past Stonehenge, making the site a lot nicer
Why are so many people upvoting your comment ? The work on Stonehenge has just been put on hold because they haven’t even evaluated whether they’ll cause damage to graves and artifacts. And they also haven’t even considered the 51 better alternatives that have been proposed to them since 1991. The unmarked graves go way beyond the ground of the stones. They’re finding new graves even recently in the area
You mentioned ISIS which is in Syria, Egypt is in North Africa and is currently a military ally to most of Europe and North America. Egypt receives tremendous amount of modern American military hardware.
I think the people you’re arguing with are going overboard but these two things are fundamentally different: One of them is looting of conquered lands, the other is the intentional destruction of historic artifacts. One is driven explicitly by religion, the other was coincidental. This is also the difference between the British stealing Egyptian statues and China razing Tibetan monasteries: One had if not an appreciation than at least an admiration. The other had only the goal to destroy those items from the face of the earth. They’re incomparable and one is obviously far worse morally.
Yea but the person was talking bout terrorists and u said something bout american Christianity lol.
And most of the stuff was sold and not looted. Like the idea that your just bringing up random shit like comparing the British Government to the Nazis or American Christianity to make a point is just so ludicrous. Like I'm sorry, but ur trolling
The amazing Bamiyan Buddhas weren't in Syria. In Iraq there's Hatra, Nineveh, Mosul, Nimrud, Khorsabad and loads more. What the Saudis are doing to Yemen right now, also. What the jews are doing in Palestine.
No thanks....But the sad part is Great Britian is the only Colonizer that actually made some effort to give back some properties and appologized for some stuff.. It's not much but at least there is always hope for some Room for negotitation unlike any other colonizer.
The amount of Art, Land, Slaves that Spanish and French had and still have and never even done anything major about it is extremely upsetting.These artefacts later on are found in private collections and are untraceable and lost.
Example : Spanish/Polish Royal family sold a Painting "Lady with a weasle" that went missing during 2nd WW.. to Polish Government ...
IT COSTED TAX PAYERS 450 MLN and Czartoryscy were given a Medal of Honour for ALLOWING POLISH GOVERNMENT TO BUY BACK HISTORY
There are universities that do not have access to certain fossils because while know for existance they are being kept by collectors.
Soo let's put it this way.
Important NOTE : NOT EVERY ARTEFACT WAS STOLEN ... A LOF OF THEM WERE GIFTS .... A LOT OF EM WERE FOUND IN COOPERATION BETWEEN BRITISH and OTHER GOVERNMENTS(which is important because excavation would not happen to begin with without British)
Moral of the story is though:
If we are OK with Private Collectors that hold Items with Historical and Cultural significance to Nation and its Citizens than why Shouldn't we be ok with giving some of the things back to Nations the stuff belongs 2.
It's a bit racist to just claim ISIS will destroy this.It in reality China destroys way more OLD Chinese and Foreign artefacts that do not suit CCCP agenda and entire World is giving it THUMBS UP... Europe has this beutiful thing that they sell a lot of stuff to private collectors... So items are not to be seen by anyone other then 0.01% of humanity.
With cooperation everything can be achieved, and I agree with the man in the video. Bringing it back and fixing it would enhance it's value for everyone involved.
Imagine going through this much effort just to say "west bad", when the west is literally the ones preserving these items in the first place. Jesus you're pathetic
I don’t think it’s racist to assume that certain groups could potentially and may likely destroy ancient artifacts especially when they did it pretty consistently and often. That being said I believe there could be some kind of shift to better work with each other in regards to artifacts and ancient sites.
ISIS is not in Egypt, and even under Brotherhood rule these items were not under threat. The ignorance on display in these comments is astounding - viewing a huge and complex region as a monolith.
You're right, Egypt is an entirely different scenario- a bastion of stability much like the rest of the Middle East that wasn't recently ISIS territory.
Do you have a solid reference for any of this? This may be true but I could easily see an Alex Jones or a Tucker Carlson saying this exact stuff. Comes off a little bit like, "White people civilized, brown people barbarians".
There’s no reference for it because it’s made up. The ultraconservative sect of Islam that people associate with destroying monuments—salafiism—only began in the previous century during European occupation.
How do you think the ancient artifacts in Syria lasted so long for ISIS to destroy? They were protected in museums.
Let’s also not forget that in the Middle Ages it was Europeans who sent armies to the Middle East to destroy non-Christian artifacts in the holy land.
Every region has a complicated history. There have been periods when the Islamic world as a whole was more modern and secular than Europe. But the fact that Egyptians managed to keep some of these artifacts safe for thousands of years should tell you something. Europe doesn’t have many large artifacts that old.
How do you think the ancient artifacts in Syria lasted so long for ISIS to destroy? They were protected in museums.
"How do you think dinosaur bones lasted so long? They were protected in museums."
In reality, like dinosaur bones, most artifacts were buried for centuries and through expeditions were eventually discovered and excavated. If they were actually "preserved," that building in the background wouldn't be rubble.
Let’s also not forget that in the Middle Ages it was Europeans who sent armies to the Middle East to destroy non-Christian artifacts in the holy land.
What kind of shit tier history book have you been reading? The Umayyad Caliphate took control of Levant after the fall of the Sasanian Empire and thus controlled Jerusalem. That wasn't an issue to the Latin Church until the Seljuk Empire seized control. The Seljuk Empire like the Umayyad Caliphate was Muslim, but unlike the Caliphate, were exceedingly hostile to the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantines waged war against the Seljuk Empire. The Latin Church in support of the Byzantines began the Crusades. The Byzantines had no designated denomination but were favorably Christian, their war wasn't for religious purposes.
You’re just shifting around talking about different things to try to confuse people.
The ancient Assyrian artifacts in Syrian museums were never in Egypt nor were they ever in Europe. Various items have gone from catalogues to being lost to being found again and different points of history. But you will never be able to prove there was no population in the Middle East concerned with preserving local culture and history because it is false.
Oh my god what kind of masturbatory nonsense is the last paragraph. You summed up an article you just read on Wikipedia to prove you are teh smart and therefore no one can impeach your logic or lack of sourcing on the other claims? Europeans took part in crusades rhetorically aimed at eliminating the “heathen” control of the holy land and you can read original texts explicitly recruiting participants with this language.
You’re the one that shifted it toward the crusades though. Like I get the point you were making by doing that. But I don’t know how you could then get upset at them for shifting away from Egypt.
There is an effort here to characterize Europeans as the saviors of pre-Islamic cultural history and Egyptians as wanting to destroy their own artifacts, because of events (ISIS destroying Assyrian artifacts) that didn’t even happen in Egypt and were widely reviled in Syria and across the Middle East. And I’m assuming the people coming here to make racist generalizations are aligning themselves with Europe.
Ituzzip is the one making up stuff. The OP never talked about salafism, he talked about how the Arabs let a lot of artifacts decay because they were not interested by pre-Islamic history. These artifacts were not kept safe contrary to what he claimed, they were simply buried and discovered during the archaeological excavations of the 19th century. Or they were sold to rich people by tomb robbers because they looked nice, but there wasn't any kind of effort by the central government to protect these artifacts.
kept them safe by (for the most part) letting them be buried and literally forgetting they were there.
And Europe has has plenty of old large artifacts. They were largely incorporated into modern infrastructure, examples being Roman roads, aqueducts, Hadrian's Wall, Greek temples and the Acropolis, Stonehenge (I can go on if need be)
While I do agree that we shouldn’t be making claims without tangible references you basically just did the same thing except your claims are even more outlandish somehow lol.
The point u make about keeping artifacts in museums sounds like you’re saying why they should be kept in more stable areas of the world. Its also just plain wrong as most of the damage that isis did was towards historic landmarks not collections of artifacts typically kept in museums. You can google search this one to find a plethora of examples.
The Europeans did not come to the middle east to destroy non-christian artifacts, Im not sure where you got that info from but you should do some more reading into the political and economic factors that lead to the crusades.
I highly recommend looking at old footage and pictures of Luxor and the pyramids before the europeans took control of Egypt. Its no exaggeration to say they were landfills and quarries for cheap stone.
I think some artifacts should be given back to their original owners but alot of whats in the British museum was given away by regional leaders as gifts and tribute or bought by private collectors. Bit of a tough situation to sort out but twisting history to prove your points does not help.
They are also pretty much the oldest things on Earth, because of excellent construction (the pyramids were built to last) the geographical location, favorable weathering conditions, and BEING HALF BURIED AND FORGOTTEN FOR MILLENIA
It’s wrong. The structures survived because no one cared. All valuable things, such as gold, silver and marble were stripped off the buildings/statues, all that as left was stone, and no one cares about stone because it isn’t worth a lot of money.
Stuff survived because it was ignored. A lot of it was buried under the sands, what wasn’t got the “huh, neat” treatment.
Two of the most famous examples of things removed from other countries to display in Britain are the Elgin Marbles and the Rosetta Stone.
The Rosetta Stone had already been removed by Napoleon's army, who the British fought and seized all their shit, including the stone.
The Elgin Marbles were discovered in an Ottoman military fort and they were about to be destroyed. Supposedly, Elgin got permission from the Sultan to remove them instead.
Oh sure, I'll explain myself. Here are two examples.
"Most of those people in the middle east didnot care a long time about their cultural heritage."
-Appears to be an opinion to say that most people in the middle east did not care about their heritage and that's why the artifacts are no longer in their country. If they have no source then the opinion is their own. Why would they make this assumption?
"now, as the realize what they had, they want it back for free. Very strange attitude"
-Generalizing the attitude of the culture as greedy for wanting artifacts that were created by their culture returned to them. I don't have a horse I that race as far as of it should happen or not but it does come off as the poster has a strong opinion about them and their desire.
My hometown is notoriously bigoted and I've been around racists my entire life. I may be incorrect but it does appear that the poster feels strongly about these cultures and it's not positive.
This assumption is being made because it’s in fact true from historical relevance. People in both the Middle East to Eastern Europe (for the most part) did not care about their cultural heritage during many vast political changes (I can vouch from my own family that’s from the eastern portion of the Middle East).
Assuming the response means someone’s equating Middle Eastern to senseless barbarians seems like that’s what YOU assume people think about Middle Easterners.
Yup. Just replace "artifacts" with "black people" in his post and you get one of the oldest defenses of the American slave trade.
"How can white people be blamed for enslaving black people when it's the black people who were willing to sell them in the first place? Checkmate libs."
Anyone who says that western cultures who took these artifacts to just save them from the original cultures out of the goodness of their hearts should be on board with freely returning all of then too.
You mean what literally every peoples in existence has ever done? No group of people sprang into existence in the places they live. Happening to get to a place first doesn’t mean you have claim to the area forever.
I’m Egyptian and I’m sad to say that there are still people have that mindset and want to destroy Ancient Egyptian artifacts. It’s sad. I hate religion.
It is a definitely weird situation. For example, the Parthenon marbles were sold off by the Ottomans who had no real claim to the marbles. However, because they were in England, they were protected from Ottoman control/thieves/the war for Greek independence, so I'm thankful they were kept safe. However, now that Greece is it's own country now, they should be returned, but definitely some of that debt/Parthenon reconstruction should be figured out before they put them in place.
But lots were stolen too, just saying, but also by Egyptians who didn’t respect their shit. They dug it up, sold it straight away for cash. I’m certain less than 20% of what ended up in museums out of Egypt were actually fully stolen by foreigners and not facilitated by Egyptians already.
I also was in class with a dude who’s dad was in jail for "تجاره اثار" which is basically this.
Oh I forgot to mention my dad was a tour guide + studied Egyptology, and he criticized the state of Egypt multiple times before passing away.
Most places in the world, if there is something valuable in an accessible space, someone will eventually take it and sell it for money.
I'm not sure if it's about respect so much as having a government that is willing/able to build a museum to enclose and protect valuable cultural items.
Without a higher authority protecting those items, it was probably a race between Egyptians and foreigners over who could dig up and sell things faster.
Not only that, Egyptians were pretty damn dumb as well. We BURNED the mummies, sold them for people who (ate?) them and thought they’d get reincarnated or become immortal or some shit. So not only greedy, but dumb.
This doesn’t apply to the entirety of Egypt though, but I blame Islam for shaping the idea of things being “not muslim” and that “artifacts are haram” and also the government for not taking action earlier and education.
Holy fuck I completely forgot about the fact that people ate mummies thinking it’ll turn them immortal… also literal artists bought paint and painted using material made from grounded up Mummies…
You do realize the part about eating mummies was done by Europeans?? And I'm pretty sure Europe is on top of the list of destroying artifacts. How many old Europe artifacts do Europeans have again that didn't get destroyed by Christians?
The notion that Islam is destroying artifacts only stems from the ignorant belief that Muslims have the same ideals as ISIS. Egypt hasn't gone through a mass artifact vandalism like what happened in Syria, WHICH Syrians didn't want to happen. The worst that happened was people selling the artifacts on the black market which most of it gets caught by the government.
Or course there's gonna be shitty individuals, but individuals shouldn't have the right to sell something that belongs to the entire culture. Like, how legitimate would it be if I sold someone the State of Liberty? Would people consider that a "fair sale"? Heck, even if Biden or someone did it I think people would have an issue with that.
Modern Egyptians are descended from the Arabs that invaded and remained in Egypt circa 700AD. As much of the commentors pointed they didn’t care about ‘pagan’ artefacts until fairly recently. The actual Egyptians who built the stuff the world marvel at today was millennia bc
Actually the Arabs just mixed with the local Egyptians. Arabs weren’t that many actually, it would’ve been impossible for them to repopulate all of Egypt. The modern Egyptians are mostly descendants from the ancient Egyptians and have notable differences between Arabs from other regions. Their hair is a bit rougher than Syrian or Yemeni hair.
This is a completely fabricated history. First of all less than 20 percent of modern Egypt is Arab. The largest ethnic group in Egypt is (wait for it) Egyptian. Anyone who doubts me can just google “ethnic groups in Egypt.”
I hate when people use matter-of-fact language and occasional stats to lend credibility to something they made up.
Yes, the in the golden age of islam they made a habit of forming mixed societites with a muslim ruling caste i beleive, those who would not convert where taxed harder but where generally free. And formed a very diverse empire.
This eventually made islam the dominant religion in like the 11th century, instead of coptic christian but ethnically egyptians is still a larger group.
exactly, since when did invading mean removing the entire populace? that's so exceedingly rare especially back then. more often it's just an administrative and in the long term cultural shift.
I mean, there’s a couple examples of invasion leading to populace decimation. The easiest example (although smallpox definitely helped) is the native cultures of America.
yeah that's what i mean by exceedingly rare. you have to keep in mind that a local population was incredibly valuable up until the last few hundred years.
rulers didn't care which peasant worked the land, the ideas of race, nationalism etc weren't really a factor (or even a concept at all). they just wanted more power and up to a point to convert more people to their deity. can't convert or tax people you drive out of your lands or kill.
The largest ethnic group in Egypt is (wait for it) Egyptian.
I mean I wouldn’t get too sarcastic about nationalist ethnicities, they’re blatantly arbitrary. 99.7% of Egyptians claim to be ethnically “Egyptian”, but they all speak a dialectal variation of Arabic while practicing Islam.
If anything, you’ve supporting his point. If you put an Egyptian next to a Saudi an Iraqi wouldn’t be able to tell you the difference.
Modern Egyptians are descended from the Arabs that invaded and remained in Egypt circa 700AD
Bruh.
You really think Egyptians are descended from a small, ancient ruling class of nomadic warriors who got quickly assimiliated into the populations they conquered?
Really?
SMH. What are they teaching you kids in school? Pretty much everyone in the Middle East is descended from non-Muslim populations who converted to Islam because of taxes, not dudes from the deserts of Arabia.
If your family has lived in a country for over a thousand years, that country's heritage is part of your heritage.
The real problem here is iconoclasm. That horrific belief that is responsible for the destruction of so many ancient works. There's no telling how many statues and wonders were destroyed at the hands of icoboclasts.
This is totally false, don't make sweeping comments if you don't know anything about history. Arabization was a gradual political and cultural process, there was no genetic replacement of populations across North Africa.
Stfu and stop spreading ahistorical propaganda. This is completely wrong. Arab is not an ethnicity or a race, it’s a cultural and linguistic category. Even if you were talking about the Gulf Arabs who spread Islam around the MENA region, do you really think they could replace entire population groups? Why would they do that?? And why is this such a fucking common thing to lie about? Zionists loooooove this propaganda especially because it justifies their Jewish ethnic-supremacy over Palestinians—and if that’s the company you keep maybe you should rethink it.
It’s so absurd, but dumb shits on Reddit will say anything to make Arabs and middle eastern people look bad to feel better about themselves.
Egyptians get very defensive over their heritage whenever a west African claims ancient Egypt as their own. Go onto any comment section about Egyptian history and you'll see a mix of the two fighting. West Africans mad that busts/imagery look too white, and Egyptians fighting them over how they are not/never were black.
While Egypt is in Africa...it's hardly the same. It's like Turkey to Europe. Technically they are in Europe, but they aren't European. On paper yes, but in practical terms--no. Egyptians don't align themselves with sub Saharan Africa
He said modern Egyptians descend from invading Arabs. That implies the ancient Egyptians are different from modern Egyptians which is false and has been disproven time and time again
Take up the White Man's burden—
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard—
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:—
“Why brought ye us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"
we'll say, " most of the artifacts are not stolen. Most of those people in the middle east didnot care a long time about their cultural heritage. in fact, they even sold a lot of it to european museums"
You’re completely right the Egyptian state hates anything pre-Islamic that’s why it spends millions funding archeological digs and restoration projects and has ancient Egyptian symbols on multiple state departments.
You don’t want people making assumptions about historical Egypt based on modern institutions… so you’re defending assumptions about precolonial Egypt that are completely unsubstantiated ?
Egyptians are very proud of their cultural heritage. If you’ve ever talked to one you’d do. And my grievances with the state aside there is no evidence of criminal systemic neglect of artifacts or destruction by the state.
I don’t know who these commentators are but their arguments are incredibly condescending and offensive.
There are studies and archeological books written by Egyptians about Egypt dating back to before the Muslim conquest. See elKindi et al.
Also you REALLY fucking arguing that people near el Jeezeh couldn’t look five meters to the left to see the towering pyramids and archeological sites that dot the landscape…?
Bro I’ve lived all my life in Egypt, am Egyptian, speak Arabic, live near the Pyramids, my dad worked as a tour guide and studied Egyptology, and can confirm, /u/suugakusha is not spewing bullshit. Everything is correct.
Offensive? lol get off the internet if you get offended that easy. You’re missing the point. These artifacts weren’t stolen. Egypt sold them to these other countries and now a few centuries later wants them back for free. That’s not how the world works.
How DARE those pesky Egyptians blame the West for...
checks notes
Actively funding terrorist groups...?
It's ridiculous. Those Egyptians should be happy that the West sent them brave freedom fighters to bring them democracy! Don't they understand that the weapons you give to Saudi Arabia and the billions you send to Israel are making the world a better place?
Yes same as tribal chiefs sold their land to colonizers. Such legitimate transactions /s. Get out of here with that western saviour mentality. They stole countless artefacts and destroyed even more. Get your facts straight.
Of course a redditor pretends colonialism did not exist. What an ahistoric take on the issue. I also love how you imply the ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST do not care whatsoever about their cultural heritage, what a very objective observation.
Not to mention the absolutely unbelievable amount of lost artifacts during the Arab spring. It may sound noble to “return” them, but it’s probably not a good idea in the long run.
So a bunch oportunistic looters and thieves sold ancient artifacts that didn't belong to them to the british and suddenly is ok for England to have them?
Would you be ok if I stole some important ancient artifacts from your country and sold them to another nation, and when your country ask them back the one that bought it argued that they paid for it so now it belongs to them?
Well, it’s not that same people that sold it all those years ago necessarily. It’s a new generation that has come to this realization of historical and cultural value.
What kind of colonial propaganda have you been huffing out back 😂 Britain may have preservational expertise, but that's hardly an grounds for de jure ownership.
Anyway, if Britain gave a shit about "preservation" they wouldn't have invaded half the globe and forced themselves on us.
Because egypt is not the middle east its AFRICA and they didn't care because iys not their culture they stole it from Africans and didn't understand the value so they didn't mind selling it.
Ah yes, just like the Elgin Marbles weren’t straight up “lifted” out of Greece, but bought from the Ottoman Government of that time yet Thomas Bruce couldn’t provide a firman (official decree) even if he’s life depended on it. Even Lord Byron viewed this move as an act of vandalism and looting.
Now the marbles sit on foreign soil and we’re here on reddit reading mental gymnastics from people that justify this behavior.
You don’t own the Statue of Liberty, it’s owned by the US government. If they sold it to Canada, a successive government in a few hundred years time couldn’t just say give it back.
Not arguing as to whether or not the original commenter is correct... but I'm not sure where all these comments are coming from saying hes imying Egyptians don't care about their culture.
He clearly said they didn't care about them when these artifacts were removed from their original settings.
It's still wrong to buy something knowing it is stolen. The British and others have a moral obligation to return this and other artifacts to their rightful place
is some acrobatic thinking .. making a broad generalisation is one thing (that no one originally cared, or that wealthy officials in charge at the time didn't mind.. or had a choice in the decision)..
but to assume everyone still feels the exact same way as they did back then is also another pitfall to reason and rational thought.
1k
u/HenneX123 27d ago
most of the artifacts are not stolen. Most of those people in the middle east didnot care a long time about their cultural heritage. in fact, they even sold a lot of it to european museums. especially as many countries said: it was made before Mohammed so its unislamic crap. A lot would have been lost if it wasnot preserved by western museum. now, as the realize what they had, they want it back for free. Very strange attitude