Now how are we supposed to determine what Egypt stole from other peoples during Egypt’s empire? Or did everyone forget they conquered and enslaved people too?
Sure. There’s no point in people experiencing the cultures of other people, right? It doesn’t help people to broaden their understanding, it’s the same as seeing it on the internet, right? That’s why I don’t people going to the Grand Canyon or Yosemite…buy a book! It’s just as good right?
Yes I'm saying people should travel to see the grand canyon.... rather than hack off bits of it and look at the rocks a thousand miles away.
Museum tours exist for precisely this reason, while the artifact is "homed" in one place it will be periodically loaned to others to save people the trip. This is very common for artifacts that will travel well.
The fact is that there is no absolute right to be able to look at artifacts from foreign cultures, and absolutely no right to take them so you might have an easier time doing so. If you want to sit at home you can as you point out, read a book.
Then countries shouldn’t have sold them, and then try to null and void the agreement because they now see the financial value in tourism.
Of course I’m not talking about black market items, those should be returned. Those “taken” during a time when they were being burned as firewood or temples being ground into dust for concrete, when there was no real govt for 1600 years.
Those “taken” during a time when they were being burned as firewood or temples being ground into dust for concrete, when there was no real govt for 1600 years.
Where and when?
Anything involving the Ottomans is a live wire, as there are some pretty good claims that the administration was fundamentally imperial and stripping the provinces through corruption or policy (as was everyone at the time), Greece maintains that the entire administration should be treated as a occupation and you know what, they aren't wrong.
But even when we are on a "solid footing of sale" then it's a balance. If someone purchased an item that is now of great value there is some sense to giving it back because from a historiography point of view that is where it belongs.
To the locals it does not matter if it was burned to dust or taken across the sea, it's still equally as gone. So the "preservation" argument rather falls down.
I can’t remember the exact names of the temples. It’s very slight hyperbole about the firewood, but considering how mummies were treated it’s not a stretch.
There was no real govt in Egypt fo most of the Middle Ages. It was ruled by tribal leaders who did nothing to preserve anything. This was halted by the French and British and Europeans who started studying and preserving things. That’s why the casing of pyramids are gone, temples ground down, faces chiseled off, and who knows what else was lost. I don’t feel bad that the items where taken out of the area, it was the start of archeology as a modern science. And for a “‘solid footing of sale’ is a balance” sorry that’s not how it works. It’s never worked like that, anywhere, ever.
I honestly believe that the Ancient Egyptian culture belongs to the world, it’s a Victorian idea that Egypt was some mythical land that was self contained and didn’t spread its culture. This is so amazingly false, it could be argued that most of the world has culture that has spread directly from Ancient egypt( writing and paper, medicine, chemistry, agriculture, irrigation, Greeks learned carving from ancient Egyptians, it was the first “true country”, math … ect.) and should be shared and preserved to an extreme degree.
I think it’s an honest debate as to what should be returned to Egypt. But those who shout that “everything is stolen” are woefully misinformed about history of egypt and think it was some prestine paradise before the “colonists” rolled in, which is the exact opposite of what exactly happened. The “colonists” are the ones who restored self rule to Egypt, and led to the knowledge of its history being so important to everyone.
Yes I think that the debate, even if things are "legitimately sold", is down to cultural value. It's not about legitimacy more than a sense of fairness and cultural repatriation.
"no you didn't look after this" is an awful (and hypocritical) attitude to have.
No it’s not. It’s def not hypocritical, not sure how you think that. The world has a responsibility to preserve all cultures, and if one that is in the area isn’t doing it then the world should step in. I don’t like the argument about “Taliban” in Egypt but they are a prime example in other cultures. If someone is destroying it needs to be protected at all costs and if that means removal, that’s what needs to be done.
Hello! You have made the mistake of writing "ect" instead of "etc."
"Ect" is a common misspelling of "etc," an abbreviated form of the Latin phrase "et cetera." Other abbreviated forms are etc., &c., &c, and et cet. The Latin translates as "et" to "and" + "cetera" to "the rest;" a literal translation to "and the rest" is the easiest way to remember how to use the phrase.
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Egyptian temples were built for the official worship of the gods and in commemoration of the pharaohs in ancient Egypt and regions under Egyptian control. Temples were seen as houses for the gods or kings to whom they were dedicated. Within them, the Egyptians performed a variety of rituals, the central functions of Egyptian religion: giving offerings to the gods, reenacting their mythological interactions through festivals, and warding off the forces of chaos. These rituals were seen as necessary for the gods to continue to uphold maat, the divine order of the universe.
Just so you are aware, European archeologists paid the Egyptian government for access to hire locals to dig up ruins that the locals had completely forgotten about. Granted some were most likely snuck out as to not pay the extra fines, but to assume that it was all taken by force is misinformation
They did for quite some time. But they eventually stopped being the cool kids and Britain came and did all the hard work digging up all the artifacts, they should get to keep them it they want to. One day Britain and other powerful countries will fade like Egypt did and someone will come loot their stuff. That’s how the world has worked since the beginning of time
What their ancestors with a completely different culture and did during the fucking bronze age 3000 years ago is not benefiting them now, while the Brits are still benefiting from their brutalizing of other people, and are excusing it and defending the British Empire to this day.
Not every country wouldve created a colonial empire even if they had the tech and ability to. Colonialism only happened because there was an economic incentive in Europe to do it. The Chinese never colonized (except for conquering neighboring territories to secure their borders), because they had no economic incentive. The Egyptian New Kingdom also only conquered territory to secure their borders, as they had been recently conquered by a foreign power (the Hyksos).
They just had an imperial system of slave states that were forced to pay them tribute or risk being invaded. A process that went in for hundreds if not thousands of years. They didn't exterminate the people of tiwan or anything. If you read about the Chinese imperial government you will come to realize that they did not care to colonize because they did not see the use in it. The didn't have to expand themselves outside of china because it is one of the most resource rich places on earth, it is a self sustainable nation. Instead they just brutalized all of the smaller nations around them and fed themselves with these nations income.
Every group of people's from England to Japan has colonized at some point. This has been a world of war, killing and forced assimilation all through history. The Europeans are simply the last to do it, and most well recorded.
The new kingdom of Egypt took the time to conquest all of the levant and kush. With which Egyptians most certainly moved to and settled in, which is by definition colonization. It's unfair to say they didn't colonize as they simply didnt have the technology to cross large bodies of water to create towns, and then supply those towns with regular shipments.
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u/DRUNK-M3RL1N 26d ago
Now how are we supposed to determine what Egypt stole from other peoples during Egypt’s empire? Or did everyone forget they conquered and enslaved people too?