Muslim countries periodically do the same thing. There’s a branch of Islam that is actively trying to destroy the pyramids and shit. Look at Syria. Nobody even knows what all they’ve destroyed. They did the same thing in Iraq and Iran. I think it’s totally reasonable to grab some artifacts and keep them in a place where a bunch of zealots can’t just come in and destroy them once or twice a century.
Yeah, it's so tragic. China suffered this during the Cultural Revolution, looting and burning their own temples and priceless tomes.
You know how we have an arctic seed bank? We should fund an international Culture Bank and put it in some remote place. Put a sample of all the cool stuff there for future generations, especially the books.
Digitizing media doesn't fill me with a sense of certainty. Lots of websites and links from the mid 90s are all broken or dead. Who knows what will happen to Wikipedia in 50 years let alone 200 years.
I want physical objects, buried in an earthquake free zone, at a temperature that is stable year-round, with no exposure to light. Something that we can guarantee will last over 10,000 years.
I'm not talking about burning it all on CDs and keeping them in a shed, there are absolutely ways to preserve digital information for longer time periods and there are a lot of people working on figuring out the best ways to do just that. And it's not like books last for 10 000 years, either.
As a Gamer and history enthusiast the number of games that are just gone is astonishing. These things were made and played on many computers, and yet somehow we just don't have them anymore.
China has done a much better perseving their shit than other nations, to be fair. Still lost quite a bit but not nearly as bad as Europe and the Middle East. There is barely anything left of American cultures.
I remember back when isis was a new phenomenon in syria, the people othe syrian city of idlib started demonstrating the strict rules isis was implementing, poor things thought since they got rid of bashar al assad, they could get rid of anything.
Isis members response was firing an rpg rocket straight at the crowds.
I mean, nobody really wants to confront the stark raving mad fanatic who owns a lot of weapons in any country, really. The 999 were trying not to get themselves killed, they can be forgiven for keeping out of the way of the maniacs.
And around one in three Americans approve of and continue to support a disgraced fascist ex-president who tried to instigate a coup of a democratic government and overturn the results of an election.
Idk man probably because they were made up of former Iraqi soldiers during the US invasion and they got a shitton of weapons and equipments from the sky with the power of magic??? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
Dude. This isn’t hard to understand geopolitically. Just because they are so severely unpopular amongst Muslims in general doesn’t mean they are unable to make significant military advancements and create a terror state.
They took most of northern Iraq because Iraq is literally a failed, weak state after the terroristic US invasion. The average citizen can not do much to fight back and they just want to do whatever they can to live. Syria was the same way with the chaotic rebellions and internal schisms.
And most of ISIS territory has been diminished anyways. The last 10 years was a game-of-thrones level of proxy conflicts and pure suffering, and most of the victims were Muslims themselves
The number on the Syrian support turned out to be true, and it seems that I mistook the original number for the general support of ISIS throughout most Muslim communities. Regardless it’s still a very significant majority in the region that hates ISIS.
Though It doesn’t change the fact that the dude’s second point about ISIS not being Syria is true, and that your question on why ISIS was able to hold that much territory in 2015 was correctly answered by me.
but let's be honest, that's not what happened to Egypt. The brits just went there and took what they could carry. It wasn't about "safekeeping" it was about getting trophies and loot.
they want to keep it? Alright, but just own it and stop the hypocrisy, Don't make lame excuses. There are democratic countries without terrorism, that had their artifacts taken and exposed in British museums
I was replying to what he said you limey twat, learn to read
" I think it’s totally reasonable to grab some artifacts and keep them in a place where a bunch of zealots can’t just come in and destroy them once or twice a century"
And how is any of that him making excuses you dumb fuck? That's not him saying that's what they did. He's saying it's be reasonable if that was the reason someone did it. Jesus fucking Christ you're a moron.
How many people in this thread talked about keeping the artifacts for safekeeping? That is an excuse you moronic cuck. They took it because they wanted.
You're just a pedantic ignorant cnt who thinks that it can force his opinion by bullying and insulting people.
A) Antiquities we're looted well before ISIS.
B) Looted antiquities have been destroyed while in European care.
C) European stability is a fantasy the only difference is financial solvency which would exist if the antiquities had remained in Egypt.
D) Assuming being Muslim inherently puts antiquities at risk is ignorant since the largest recorded loss of antiquities in recorded history was the Christian burning of the works in the Library of Alexandria and later the Islamic North African Moors of Spain who had successfully transliterated much of the library which was also burned by Christianity.
Nobody will be the perfect caretaker of antiquities but it's pretty clear that Egyptian antiquities belong in Egyptian cultural centers with the context of the geography to help guide aspiring archeologist and research of the past for the public to appreciate.
Also Reddit needs its compulsory “religion bad” support
This comment section is overrun by rude people who are ignorant of history and create invented information. Muslim countries don’t even periodically do this crap. He could’ve took a few seconds to think and replace it with militant groups overruning unstable regions in the Muslim world.
The comment section is a hate circlejerk against Egyptians and most of these people have never even visited egypt, are shitting on Egypt & Egypt’s culture, while calling their artefacts “human history” instead of Egyptian history. Too much mental gymnastics here… Did not expect to find so many hateful people on reddit
I don’t think European stability is a fallacy. The Middle East, as a region, is currently one of the most unstable regions on the planet. Especially with the US leaving and (likely) Russia and China moving in.
And yet we managed to protect or recover most of the cultural artefacts that were removable afterwards. There's an entire history of how France and the UK worked to hide and preserve their historical artefacts during the way.
The Suez Canal, owned and operated for 87 years by the French and the British, was nationalized several times during its history—in 1875 and 1882 by Britain and in 1956 by Egypt.
Yep because even though the US is great at making instability at least when it was there it was the biggest bully around. Now with its leaving there’s a power vacuum and that needs to be filled. Even if you think the US (and other western and easter countries) staying out of the middle east is good for the long term health of the Middle East the US pulling out is definitely likely to raise the instability in the immediate future
I mean, yeah? It’s a huge change to the geopolitical climate of the region.
Huge changes almost always cause instability. In this case it’s a more or less a power vacuum. I believe the Taliban is overrunning cities as we speak actually.
You don’t have to agree with the US’s involvement in the Middle East (I most certainly did not) to understand them leaving will, in the short term, cause instability.
The US is absolutely responsible for the dumpster fire that is Afghanistan (not that the Soviets don't share some of the blame for the war back in the 80s) but these points don't contradict what Hoopla is saying
No, but the same mindset that led Britain to take artifacts from Egypt is the same that led them to work to keep much of the middle east in constant wars.
The comment started because of Greek Christians going ape shit and wrecking their pagan artifacts. Yes, they were looted before isis, but also they will continue to be looted. Hell not even looted just outright destroyed. I kinda doubt Egypt would be financially solvent if all the artifacts were returned. In fact it’s crazy expensive to keep stuff like this. You can’t just lay a mummy on the table and charge people to look. They need to be housed very carefully. They send those artifacts all around the world and people get to see them which is cool.
Maybe but the more fragile shit wouldn’t exist today if it hadn’t been looted. Also important to note that much of it was purchased off dealers at the turn of the last century by private individuals who put them where they are now.
D) Assuming being Muslim inherently puts antiquities at risk is ignorant since the largest recorded loss of antiquities in recorded history was the Christian burning of the works in the Library of Alexandria and later the Islamic North African Moors of Spain who had successfully transliterated much of the library which was also burned by Christianity.
I don’t mean to pass judgment on any religious group about their ability to look after antiquities, but purely in relation to this point I think it’s important to note the at you can’t simply add up all past atrocities for any given group and then rank them on who has the most for all time. It’s relevant to ask what state each group is in right now. And it’s also not appropriate to judge whole religions on these questions. There can be huge variations within the same religious group between different places and times. I broadly support the right of all peoples to be custodians of their own relics and antiquities, but if I had the option I’d probably remove all pre-Muslim relics from Afghanistan now.
I absolutely can and will. Artifacts from areas that have intense conflict should be able to lend antiquities to harboring countries without losing them forever.
I agree Afghanistan is not in a stable enough situation to resume ownership of it's antiquities.
But I doubt in the long run they'll ever be returned if they are sheltered for safety. Sometimes tragedy will be the only lesson for history.
I recommend reading up on the Siege of Baghdad of 1258, now that was a disaster: The books from Baghdad’s libraries were thrown into the Tigris River in
such quantities that the river ran black with the ink from the books.
Again I've never suggested that antiquities should be returned to Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria. For some reason people are under the incorrect assertion that I have promoted the idea that antiquities should remain in these countries in their current condition.
Assuming being Muslim inherently puts antiquities at risk is ignorant since the largest recorded loss of antiquities in recorded history was the Christian burning of the works in the Library of Alexandria and later the Islamic North African Moors of Spain who had successfully transliterated much of the library which was also burned by Christianity.
I'm focusing in on this part, the library burning down and losing so much knowledge is pop-history. It was partly burnt by Caesar and rebuilt swiftly, but by the time Christianity became the predominant religion in the Roman Empire the library was already on the decline; I would be surprised if they never copied anything from there and moved it on - if they didn't then it wasn't important.
Ya, you missed the part where you (European or Americans) got ZERO fucking right to take artifacts related to another country's culture and history, regardless of what's happening to them
Never insinuated it was only Europeans and Americans, im focusing on who's commenting and the topic at hand which is Egypt, a place I lived for 4 years and is grossly being misrepresented on this sub.
Serious question: What artifacts have America stolen from Egypt? America never colonized Egypt and a quick Google search shows that many American museums who have bought artifacts or had them donated to them regularly return them to their rightful country.
I mentioned other countries in response to a comment that mentioned other countries. I was trying to stay on topic eith Egypt and never said Americans stole anything from Egypt, bye Felicia
So what about US army trashing the ruins of Babylone? They acted like isis did so western people need to stop patronizing the shit out of every culture who doesn't live like 'em.
Too easy. It's not about Egypt anymore. It's about western supremacy making other people's culture and history theirs and justifying it by saying "they can't be trusted with themselves", which is the same narrative that Africans and Native Americans had to endure.
And I'm saying western civilization proved to be as brutal and destructive as everyone else. Yall just justifying the theft of deeply personnal belongings, the kind of treasures that can shape a nation.
Now that we're all capitalists countries, I'm waiting for the US Constitution to be lended to Egypt as a "common treasure of mankind".
Wtf are you on about? I literally asked "Serious question: What artifacts have America stolen from Egypt?" It was absolutely about Egypt. Find someone else's question to not answer in any way but just spam your bs on. You dont get what "Serious question" means do you?
"Dude, shut the shit the fuck the shit the shut the shit" is all I get from you.
Avoiding embarrassing yet deep points in conversations doesn't make you "serious" at all.
So for the cases where thst didn't happen, which are a plenty, those artifacts should be given back? Obviously if you paid for them on thr black market you have a claim then, right? 😆
I didn't corrected your on grammar. The 2 hypothesis you provide are just totally ignorant of the history of colonization and the balance of power it implies.
Yep, a colonized governments (or any governement) should not be allowed to sell the common history of it's citizens. No matter how many money was spent, colonization is an obvious case of abuse of dominant position and our modern countries, as diplomacy minded organizations, should not profit from it. Profiting from vulnerability and theft is not friendly nor honorable.
A bunch of them were sold too. Who do they even belong to at this point? It’s not like you could really call the ancient Egyptians this guys ancestor because they probably weren’t. Who knows it was thousands of years ago. And then some guy at the turn of the century yanks it out of the ground and sells it to a dude in a pith helmet. Who does it belong to now? Idk it’s not clear really. Then a hundred years pass and it’s even murkier. Honestly I kinda feel like they’re everyone’s at this point which is why they put them in tour which rules.
Yep it was the Syrians, who had their country become the part thing of Russia USA and Iran, that destroyed their shit in purpose.
By your logic, the futile defund the police shit is the same thing. The police are right, and they should just keep doing what they do, in fact everyone is just dumb and police should be given more power, because it's always the citizens mistake anyways, right? No crime if everyone was a cop.
This sounds reasonable but I think this is actually just a more eloquent retelling of the 'we can't trust the natives to look after this art so we'll keep it safe in a more civilised land' thing people use to justify colonialism and pillaging. The UK government wants to put a motorway near Stonehenge, which is bad for it. Shall they donate Stonehenge to Greece, seeing as they can't look after it properly?
I actually think you can’t trust the natives. Think about it, how many people have even seen the attraction in their own town? None. Go to née York and the Statue of Liberty is a thing between Manhattan and Staten Island. You don’t go to look at it if you live there. It’s like that everywhere. People near stone henge just want a quick commute. It’s not good either way. It would be nice if you could get Stonehenge near people that care to protect it but you can’t. The simple fact of the matter is that if these things were left to the grave robbers that removed them they wouldn’t exist anymore. And it’s absurdly expensive to keep a mummy or a painting preserved properly. Your options are either take it out of the ground and put it in an expensive ass developed world museum or leave it in the ground. Or obviously it can turn to dust.
That’s not what’s happening with Stonehenge. A tunnel is being installed away from the stones to allow for a major transport route to be decongested, and to return the land around the stones to a state more fitting to the historical environment
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u/AdministrativeEnd140 26d ago
Muslim countries periodically do the same thing. There’s a branch of Islam that is actively trying to destroy the pyramids and shit. Look at Syria. Nobody even knows what all they’ve destroyed. They did the same thing in Iraq and Iran. I think it’s totally reasonable to grab some artifacts and keep them in a place where a bunch of zealots can’t just come in and destroy them once or twice a century.