r/DestinyTheGame Sep 30 '22 Helpful 2 Wholesome 2 Take My Energy 1 Helpful (Pro) 1

Core-playlists are dying due to lack of content. Check out the release dates. Discussion

Core-playlist additions over time.

*Vaulted content

** Content ported from D1

Crucible

Cathedral of Dusk** = S18

Disjunction = S17

Cauldron**, Exodus Blue**, The Anomaly** = S10

Rusted Lands** = S9

Fragment, Twilight Gap**, Widow's Court** = S8

Convergence**, Equinox*, Firebase Echo*, Gambler's Ruin*, The Citadel* = S4

Meltdown*, Solitude* = S3

Pacifica, Radiant Cliffs, Wormhaven S2

Altar of Flame, Bannerfall**, Distant Shore, Endless Vale, Eternity, Midtown, The Burnout**, The Dead Cliffs, The Fortress, Vostok, Emperor's Respite*, Legion's Gulch*, Retribution* = S1

Out of 32 PvP maps we only have 24 active in-game & 9 ported from D1

Averaging 1.2 new PvP maps per season

Gambit

Deep Six, New Arcadia = S6

Emerald Coast, Legion's Folly, Cathedral of Scars*, Kell's Grave* = S4

Out of 6 Gambit maps we only have 4 maps active in-game.

Averaging 0.33 new Gambit maps per season

Strikes

The Arms Dealer, Savathûn's Song*, Exodus Crash, The Inverted Spire, The Pyramidion*, Lake of Shadows = S1

Tree of Probabilities*, A Garden World* = S2

Strange Terrain*, Will of the Thousands*, The Insight Terminus = S3

Broodhold*, Warden of Nothing, The Hollowed Lair*, The Corrupted = S4

The Festering Core*, The Scarlet Keep = S8

The Disgraced**, The Glassway = S12

The Devils' Lair**, Fallen S.A.B.E.R.**, Proving Grounds = S13

The Lightblade, Birthplace of the Vile = S16

Out of 24 strikes, we have 15 active in-game & 3 ported from D1

Averaging 1.16 new strikes per season.

IMO - If we got 1-2 new maps & strikes per season that would be awesome. Unfortunately , Bungie goes years & then dumps. I think if more time & resources were spent on the core-playlists over the seasonal public events - that the seasons would feel more filled out.

3.5k Upvotes

841

u/JammerFM Sep 30 '22

Distant Shores is Shores of Time from D1. Just changed the scenery from Venus to Nessus.

235

u/Kildozer666 Sep 30 '22

Missed that one on my write up. Ta.

39

u/WashGaming001 Oct 01 '22 edited Oct 01 '22

Vostok was also in D1

Edit: Bungie has bamboozled. Buddy of mine loaded up D1 and Vostok is not there. We’ve been lied to. This is an outrage. It was definitely a Rise of Iron launch map for crucible. 110%.

33

u/PinkieBen Guardians Make Their Own Fate Oct 01 '22

Yes and no, it was the entrance to the Iron Temple but it technically wasn't a crucible map in D1 (at least I don't remember it as one).

3

u/WashGaming001 Oct 01 '22

It was added during Age of Triumph as a new map, if not sooner

17

u/Candid_Tie_7659 Oct 01 '22

No it wasn't

13

u/Oregonbred01 Oct 01 '22

Why..... why are people down voting you? I mean sure the location existed but the map definitely did not.

-1

u/flufflogic XBL GT Tykonaut Oct 01 '22

"Vostok is a Crucible map located on Earth, atop Felwinter Peak. The map returns from Destiny, and is outside of the Iron Temple." -Destinypedia. It was the Iron Banner map introduced in the Rise of Iron DLC.

21

u/Damac1214 Oct 01 '22

That’s literally wrong, the map was introduced in D2 vanilla and was not present in D1. You should have edited destinyoedia to remove that sentence rather than used it as a primary source lmao.

3

u/Oregonbred01 Oct 01 '22

The sentence isn't wrong. They are just having a comprehension malfunction, its referring to the iron temple space being added in d1 not vostok, because we would go there to talk to efrideet to get gear during iron banner

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-14

u/flufflogic XBL GT Tykonaut Oct 01 '22

Yep. It was the Iron Banner map added that DLC.

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141

u/NeonAttak Sep 30 '22

Venus scenery with rain and dark colors was much better than the washed up lighting on Nessus palette, it's the same reason why I prefer D1 Bannerfall to D2 because of the giant shade the leaves cast. Now it's too bright.

edit: Convergence is also Pantheon from D1, but again the Black Garden colors were much better than what we have now

33

u/xWinterPR Sep 30 '22

You have a point with Bannerfall but I am very salty at the fact that you insulted Nessus' visuals.

38

u/NeonAttak Sep 30 '22

I am not saying Nessus looks bad I am just saying the current lighting makes it look washed up, I am not playing with high brightness at all and I straight up can't see shit on Distant Shores.

11

u/pewpiter Oct 01 '22

Exactly. It's rough too, turn the game too dark and it looks terrible. But even bringing brightness down, Distant Shores, and others are still blinding

6

u/MeateaW Oct 01 '22

I hate Nessus.

It's ugly and jarring.

3

u/EfficientQuantity151 Oct 01 '22

I want titan back :(

0

u/DeusVultSaracen Ding! Oct 01 '22 edited Oct 01 '22

Fr I just hate that it's a made up body

5

u/InsomniacDoggo Oct 01 '22 edited Oct 01 '22

Nessus is a real body in the solar system. 7066 Nessus is a red centaur (a small planetoid in the outer Solar System) with an unstable orbit outside Saturn's orbit.

2

u/DeusVultSaracen Ding! Oct 01 '22

For real? My bad, thought I remembered reading it was made up. That's good.

2

u/matZmaker99 Oct 01 '22

Nessus is pretty, and amazing

But its visuals cause genuine strain when in PvP. It's a combination of the high albedo, ridiculous lighting bloom when looking to the outside from a dark interior, and the low contrast between players and the environment

Venus's version in D1 averted all these problems. Its colors were more mute and easy on the eyes, high bloom was not present due to dimmer lighting conditions, and there's a high contrast between player and map, making recognizing an enemy an easy task

3

u/xWinterPR Oct 02 '22

Valid, cannot stand the massive blinding lens flares when coming out of tunnel

2

u/matZmaker99 Oct 01 '22

That is the exact part I like about D1's lighting and style

Everything was calm on the eyes, but also easily recognizable in an instant. Nowadays when looking at D2 maps, I can genuinely feel my eyes straining to process the image, whereas with D1 it was kind of like TF2, where contrast between players and map is high

2

u/AdultEnuretic Oct 01 '22

100% correct. I find it really difficult to pick the enemies out of the background in the D2 versions of the maps (especially the Nessus maps). Never had a problem in D1.

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26

u/Dune_DawgYT Sep 30 '22

Put it back >:(

2

u/matZmaker99 Oct 01 '22

Tbh the Venus theme is easier on the eyes

Nessus PvP maps make my eyes hurt

1.1k

u/G0Blue99 Sep 30 '22

For "core" playlists they sure are ignored a lot

463

u/TrueGuardian15 Sep 30 '22

They're kidding themselves when they call these gamemodes the "pillars of the game." They might be default playlists, but they certainly don't get the attention they need.

232

u/G0Blue99 Sep 30 '22

Default is a much better word than core lol

71

u/Ssyynnxx Sep 30 '22

core is a consumer friendly word to replace default :s

44

u/SPEEDFREAKJJ 8675309 Sep 30 '22

They are pillars when there is an active event like Halloween or dawning when a big part of the event is doing them for some resource required for the event.

Even seasonal activities require you to constantly dip in and out of playlists if you want to properly engage with the currency grind for the season.

They could add 100 new strikes and that playlist would still be boring because of how easy they are and no solo option. And until they actually let us play a mode like clash all the time rather than once every six weeks the maps don't mean shit to me.

17

u/Lethal_0428 Sep 30 '22

The core of the game for me at least is earning god rolls, exotics, and completing raids and dungeons. I only play playlists when I have to for a quest or grinding for a catty.

3

u/Timbots Oct 01 '22

I think you’re the statistical minority there though, as most of the playerbase are solos. I’m sure there are tons of people who would love to main raids and dungeons, but lack a group. But that’s definitely the best content for sure.

23

u/TheIronLorde Sep 30 '22

They're core in the sense that all the gameplay, seasonal progression, and holiday activities revolve around them. And because every decision Bungie makes is based on how much something is used/played, they see no reason to put time into them because people still play them regularly.

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u/cuboosh What you have seen will mark you forever Sep 30 '22

I think it’s more that they’ve been investing in the systems surrounding the playlists more than the content itself

They did a big investment in how reputation and ranks work

And then they used that foundation to add the multi perk playlist weapons

It’d be cool if you could craft playlist weapons

2

u/Downtown-Departure26 Oct 01 '22

They did a big investment in how reputation and ranks work

"big" being a relative term here. they traded a token system for a rep system, which i guess is a net improvement but really even that's subjective as it was nice at times to save your tokens when you weren't interested in the current season shit so you could spend them at a time when maybe you were more interested later.

i'm sure it took some resources to do, and it was quite more complicated than i'm letting on, but the actual player experience doesn't feel so "big"

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444

u/Saint_Victorious Sep 30 '22

I for one hate that we have destinations with no associated PvP or Gambit maps. Where are our Eupora maps for anything? For Throne World for Gambit?

Each location should have 1 Gambit map and at least 1 PvP map. Level/map design is severely lacking in this field.

163

u/pyrotechnicfantasy Who needs fists when facts will do Sep 30 '22

I've always thought this. Every single patrol location in the game should have at least 1 Strike, 1 Crucible Map, and 1 Gambit map. Instead we get 'Wellspring - Attack / Defend'.

I understand why they do it (Core Modes are free and so don't make money) but it's very frustrating to have the Core playlists of the game remain stale.

54

u/motrhed289 Sep 30 '22

Excellent point, I would gladly forego another 'season_x_activity' for new PvP and Gambit maps or strikes, the activities get boring really quick. Instead of giving us some one-off activity that loosely plays into the narrative and then nobody touches it a couple months later, give us a new strike that plays even heavier into the narrative and we get to keep in rotation indefinitely, or a one-off story mission clearing out/discovering the new PvP/Gambit arena, that we can then access a couple more times for story beats but also gets added to the map rotation.

13

u/zdude0127 Vanguard's Loyal Sep 30 '22

So basically how they wrapped up Season of the Chosen?

11

u/gormunko_88 Oct 01 '22

theres a reason everyone liked that season

2

u/pyrotechnicfantasy Who needs fists when facts will do Oct 03 '22

or a one-off story mission clearing out/discovering the new PvP/Gambit arena, that we can then access a couple more times for story beats but also gets added to the map rotation.

I would love this. Those final story missions - Vex Invasion of the Last City, Savathun's Exorcism, facing Calus in the Lunar pyramid - they present fantastic story opportunities to introduce a crucible map in the following season.

I mean Disjunction was such a missed opportunity for a small 'Shaxx wants us to establish a foothold in the Thone World' mission.

Halo: Reach did a great job of this and it's a shame Bungie hasn't used the tactic since.

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u/LivingTheApocalypse Sep 30 '22

PvP absolutely makes money.

Its why I havent preordered lightfall.

21

u/bloop_405 Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

Honestly I don't get why they don't bring the original gambit maps back. The current ones get so boring to play since there's only like 4 maps to play on (Titan, Venus, Mars, And Earth). The Dreaming City and the Fallen maps were fun maps when Gambit was first released 🥲

15

u/DaoFerret Oct 01 '22

Supposedly people complained about falling/dying on those maps from environmental damage.

(I miss them too)

I just stepped foot in gambit today after not playing much the past seasons.

It was fun, but damned if I didn’t wish there were more maps.

1

u/AngrySayian Oct 01 '22

probably because of the horrible state Gambit is in as a whole

I don't think even if they brought back every old Gambit map that was cut, that it would fix the problem

Gambit needs to be taken out, and redone to fix the problems it has and then put back in

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8

u/A-Can-of-DrPepper Sep 30 '22

I wanna see one on the leviathan

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u/SPEEDFREAKJJ 8675309 Sep 30 '22

We did have a leviathan map. I remember playing countdown trials of the nine on it.That one is buried so deep in the vault I can't remember it's name.

8

u/TheDarion The God Roll Oct 01 '22

Emperor’s respite

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u/Butttheadjuicy Oct 01 '22

They'd get hate for this, but I think maybe if they started making pvp maps out of patrol zones that could maybe be a solution to have more pvp maps, and for the record what I mean is that they would make the pvp map first and then bake it into the destination somewhere so they could reuse it.

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u/D2Nine Oct 01 '22

Be pretty cool if they just let us loose in part of a patrol zone and kill each other actually. Imagine pvp in the moth yards of the cosmodrome or around the hellmouth on the moon

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u/takamuffin Oct 01 '22

With sparrows and I'm in!

9

u/D2Nine Oct 01 '22

Just like that old d1 pvp mode, but drop us in patrols

9

u/DaoFerret Oct 01 '22

“Combined Arms” in D1. Huge maps. Sniper lanes, some vehicles, turrets you could get in.

I feel like Bungie might need to be working on the pvp for Destiny, but I can’t help but wonder if their being hampered so as not to step on the toes of their new pvp centered game (supposedly in development).

3

u/T_elic Oct 01 '22

Yeah, the one thing i liked about The Division was it's dark zone(or whatever it was called). That pure PvPvE experience was unique and fun, and i never got why it isn't in Destiny

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u/Lantisca Sep 30 '22

I’ve begun to move on. Gambit is basically forgotten, they removed maps and never bothered to add new ones. Strikes are basically an afterthought. Was nice to see at least 2 new maps for crucible but that really isn’t much considering how long we went without them. How crucible or gambit never got at least one Europa themed map is beyond me.

While I do look forward to lightfall lately I’ve begun to realize it’ll be more of the same.

6

u/Nahadot Oct 01 '22

Main reason i will not buy lightfall. The mods i love (pvp) get 0 attention so why bother since i rarely touch anything that is not solo play related.

2

u/SirDimmadome Oct 01 '22

I mean Destiny has always had the issue of staying fun. When DLCs come out the game is fun asl but then everything starts to feel like a chore after a couple of weeks.

493

u/FafnirRannsTwinedAxe Sep 30 '22

I miss heroic strikes. I used to run strikes for hours in D1. Strikes feel lifeless now for some reason. Maybe im just getting old

364

u/Railgrind Sep 30 '22

Mind numbingly easy, most don't have enough adds for 3 people or interesting encounters. Its just boring.

295

u/bguzewicz Drifter's Crew Sep 30 '22

Ironically, the best strike in the game is The Devil’s Lair. You know, the first strike from the first game.

185

u/Railgrind Sep 30 '22

I really like devil's lair. Its fast paced, absolute crap ton of adds to fight, brigs, the tank section, the giant ball at the end....Just a fun time in general.

Fond memories of using icebreaker at the tank section to kill everything in D1. I swear walker tanks used to be more dangerous

75

u/Gen7lemanCaller Sep 30 '22

being on level against that walker was the true challenge in the og strike. that thing could end runs in a heartbeat

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u/airhoppz Sep 30 '22

Still does on Master and GM sometimes.

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u/pythour Drifter's Crew Sep 30 '22

I cannot tell you how many times that thing killed two of my team members at once and left the other one completely screwed

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u/BackTheMotorUp Warlock GG2K21 Sep 30 '22

It’s funny coz I remember sepiks being one of the examples used in 2014 of why destiny sucked

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u/MulberryDeer Oct 01 '22

Wish the tank had more health though to make it more challenging but still the only good strike.

15

u/virgo911 Sep 30 '22

Real ones remember using black spindle to cheese the tank section

30

u/getmarktomania Sep 30 '22

no, real one remember using Black Hammer

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u/Artifice_Purple Oct 01 '22

I'm going to go back one further, remember Patience and Time?

Invisibility came in real handy during the Nightfall lol.

5

u/getmarktomania Oct 01 '22

Super handy when it was arc burn + light switch in a hive NF

2

u/virgo911 Oct 01 '22

Whoops, that’s the one I meant

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u/OhMyGoth1 I wasn't talking to you, Little Light Sep 30 '22

Black Hammer

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u/InsideHangar18 Sep 30 '22

The walkers are pretty much the same, our characters are just way stronger and we have more tools at our disposal.

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u/throwawaydormee Sep 30 '22

Such a nice surprise when I see devils lair and not fallen saber or the glassway/kargen whatever the fuck

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u/erzacult Sep 30 '22

Im trying out a throwing knife build on my hunter rn and I keep missing my throws because teammates keep snatching up kills too fast >=[

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u/GenitalMotors Oct 01 '22

I feel your pain as a Titan and constantly having to chase down my hammer

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u/bloop_405 Sep 30 '22

There's battleground but that's just firefight from Halo. There are enough enemies but only because they flood you in waves not because you're going through a story. The newer strikes do have more enemies but they're long 🥲

9

u/WeirdestOfWeirdos Sep 30 '22

The WQ strikes have no right to be as bland as they are for how good something like The Glassway or Proving Grounds was

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u/echoblade Sep 30 '22

You think lightblade is bland? My boi alak-hul is gonna be sad fam.

3

u/WeirdestOfWeirdos Sep 30 '22

It's far from the worst, but it only really shines at the 3 (three!) major combat encounters there are. The rest of it would make sense in another kind of mission, likely for the campaign, but something like the boat section or the Crota's End rip-off has no place in a strike, even moreso with our current power levels.

18

u/echoblade Sep 30 '22

Both the boat and lamp run are neat set pieces that make it feel different to the usual "run in a direction" vibe we've had for a while. And to be fair to Lightblade, Devils lair really only has 3 combat encounters with a trickle of ads in the connecting parts.

9

u/CatalystComet Sep 30 '22

I really like Birthplace of The Vile. Not a huge fan of Glassway.

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u/MaleficentNewt7354 Oct 01 '22

Birthplace og the vile is my favorite strike in the entire game. Tne boss itself is pretty mid tho.

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u/ggamebird Oct 01 '22

God I just love the music and atmosphere of Birthplace, particularly the Worm variant of the Strike. One of my favourites too, but the actual gameplay/boss of the strike is a little bland. Way more simple and relaxing than the previous Scorn strike though lol.

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u/NaughtyGaymer Sep 30 '22

I've posted about this before but the entire game economy was so much better structured around strikes in D1.

Besides the fact that D1 actually had valuable currencies for buying stuff (strange coins and marks) which is more than I can say for D2 the playlist had so many layers of loot being rewarded that all felt valuable.

  • 3 of Coins stacking for exotic farming and your strike playlist streak
  • strike specific loot with random rolls and skeleton keys
  • meaningful reputation packages for your Vanguard/Faction rank which give weapons/armor/cosmetics plus strange coins/motes
  • strike scoring with strike scoring bounties, the large weekly bounties having deep loot pools and exclusive exotic drops
  • all of that on top of the usual Destiny loot drops from random enemies, strike completion screen, bounties, quests, etc

Then you look at strikes in D2 and it's no wonder why no one cares. Aside from the Vanguard playlist weapons you get nothing of value. Oh I guess you get a couple of upgrade modules and an exotic shard when you reset your rank the first time lol. As if I didn't have enough of those.

1

u/TylerZip Oct 01 '22

What you haven’t mentioned about this and what the community won’t like to hear is that good loot was actually rare. You usually had to play 4+ strikes for a skeleton key to drop. Then you had to do one of the strikes that dropped the item you want but it’s in a pool with a bunch of other items so you might not even get it. So you could have to grind for quite a while to actually get that god roll imago loop you’re chasing. If bungie added the system today in the exact same way the reaction would be what the fuck bungo skeleton key drop rates are way too low and why can’t I focus into the specific item I want also I should be able to pick perks it sucks getting a bad roll. This is what makes getting the things you want actually feel valuable - the fact that it takes time to get them.

Then there’s the fact that strikes were actually somewhat challenging. D2 strikes can be beaten by smashing your face into the keyboard. If there’s no challenge then there’s nothing engaging about them. The community has killed strikes as much as bungie.

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u/Downtown-Departure26 Oct 01 '22

The community has killed strikes as much as bungie.

sorry but that's crap.

bungie gave us remixed strikes 2 years into their lifespan in D1. they were already concerned with them being too repetitive back then.

we have some strikes in D2 that are now 5 years old and have never been touched. there are strike specific drops that have not changed in nearly as long, you can still get a sparrow or ghost shell as a strike specific drop from some of the year 1 strikes which was a year 1 d2 system that they fucked up after figuring out a good system for it in d1, and they haven't gone back to fix it TO THIS DAY.

they still don't take the feedback that we want fun OP modifiers added back, they're adding new ones at a glacial pace and half the ones we've gotten in recent years are just d1 re-runs. they've ignored the requests for more robust strike scoring and systems built around that.

i mean there are a million things they could do to this playlist to try to make improvements. GM's were a decent idea but asking us to just keep doing them season after season with almost nothing iterated on is so mind-boggling silly on their part.

blaming the players for what they might complain about if changes were actually made is so damn ridiculous. trust me I'll be the first person to call the community out when they're wrong, but you can't just throw bungie a free pass for sitting on their asses here because the community might not respond to them adding things in the exactly way they want.

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u/brc37 Sep 30 '22

I don't know why they've been stripped down so badly from the end of D1. More modifiers, boss exclusive loot, Skeleton Keys to aid in chasing the exclusive loot, more challenges that didn't involve Nightfalls grinding and Champions.

D1 strikes are what got me hooked on D1 following the story and level 20.

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u/SvedishFish Sep 30 '22

For some reason? We've been running mostly the same strikes since d2 released in 2017. You've run these missions thousands of times, and we are still expected to be running at least a few every week. And many weren't very good to begin with. Between lame mechanics, lame bosses, lame dialog and absolutely cringeworthy jokes, some of these missions are just a miserable experience (looking at you Exodus crash).

2

u/cheap_cola Emerald Rook (Timelost) Sep 30 '22

No. I'm saving you.

8

u/IneptlySocial Sep 30 '22

I guess Nightfalls are supposed to be that replacement, but it’s boring doing the same strike for a week.

9

u/poprdog Sep 30 '22

I've only done a master nightfall this seasons litteraly this week for the first time. Haven't touched strikes at all

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u/mgd5800 Sep 30 '22

I remember how we used to hide from bosses and find ways to cheese them, now there are only a couple of bosses with no immune phase, and those get nuked the moment they appear. They are just poorly designed now

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u/ImawhaleCR Sep 30 '22

it's because they're mind numbingly easy, there's no difficulty at all

15

u/SPEEDFREAKJJ 8675309 Sep 30 '22

Yup. I go solo a legend nightfall and can't help but think this is how strike playlist should be...just no champs. If they won't make strikes harder at least let us solo them so I can at least have fun.

8

u/Spectre1-4 Sep 30 '22

The strikes in D1 were easy, but you could run through them quick.

D2 is full of “sit here and wait for this thing open up, then on or turn off and boss damage phases”. It’s boring.

2

u/Crypto_Cat_-_- Oct 01 '22

It's the same tired ass champions that bore me to death. And the constant elemental burns. STOP FORCING ME TO USE CERTAIN GUNS, I MADE BULDS I LIKE, LET ME USE THEM!

5

u/MrLeavingCursed Sep 30 '22

My biggest thing is where is the carrot on the end of the stick, all you get for normal strikes is world pool drops. I'm D1 each strike had a unique piece of gear that had a chance to drop and Skelton keys to help player focus a specific drop they wanted.

0

u/DasGruberg Sep 30 '22

Rose tinted glasses. Strikes was a newer concept.

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u/TheyKilledFlipyap Or was it Yapflip? Sep 30 '22

To be honest, I don't think any number of new strikes is gonna fix this. Be honest, does anyone load into a strike playlist thinking "Man, I can't wait to try that one new strike", especially when almost every D2 strike post-vanilla was used in the story campaign or a quest. So once you've done it once, the novelty is gone.

The Lightblade strike was fun for a while, now I load into it and go "Ah fuck, it's this one..." because of that tedious swamp section.

What the playlist needs is to be regularly changed somehow to keep it fresh. "Just add more strikes" isn't really an option, because we'll get bored of those real fast.

The Nightfall / Grandmaster situation isn't a bad starting point, having things on a rotator with modifiers. We just need to take that idea and scale it down to something more casual friendly.

Heroic Strikes ideally should be this, but they've been replaced with the 'low tier' Nightfalls, which just aren't very appealing as there's little to no incentive to do those when the non-matchmade higher power versions offer such a ridiculously higher reward for more or less the same work, long as you've got a good team.

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u/DJRaidRunner-com Sep 30 '22

which just aren't very appealing as there's little to no incentive to do those

The larger issue is that they're still fundamentally a Nightfall, locking them into a single strike. If lower difficulties were a proper playlist, it'd actually be sorta fun to farm. Instead, as you said, it's literally just better to do higher difficulties. I don't even feel like doing Nightfalls until I can do Grandmasters anymore, because farming them at lower difficulties just feels boring.

14

u/th3groveman Drifter's Crew Sep 30 '22

Plus, I don’t know anyone who actually prefers running the same strike over and over as opposed to something with a bit more variety. Hero NFs (hell, the idea of grinding NFs in general) sucks. Having a playlist with rotating modifiers and better rewards would be much better. I honestly don’t bother with strikes or NFs at all. Chasing rolls on weapons isn’t worth the time spent running like a hamster on a wheel.

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u/ajallen89 Sidearms go pew pew Sep 30 '22

"Man, I can't wait to try that one new strike",

Admittedly there are a few that I will get excited about running. Pyramidion was one of them, same with Broodhold, and now Lightblade. I'll throw in Birthplace of the Vile just because I very rarely get to actualy run that one; I'm curious if strikes have weighting like crucible maps do...

7

u/ImJLu Oct 01 '22

A Garden World was always my favorite strike. RIP

18

u/Talkimas Sep 30 '22

I still miss Savathun's Song. Probably my favorite strike between D1 and D2 on my favorite location between D1 and D2. Vaulting so much content was hands down the biggest blunder Bungie's made in Destiny's development. However much dev time it would have taken to figure out solutions to the problems caused by having that stuff around would have been worth it unquestionably imo.

9

u/ImJLu Oct 01 '22

nO dOnT cOmE dOwN hErE

4

u/STAIKE Sep 30 '22

Just for larks I kept the Parasite quest step to run Birthplace and didn't load the strike from the director. I unlocked the step in probably week 3 of last season, and am still on the step. I actually enjoy playing strikes, so I run the Vanguard playlist a pretty solid amount. I have run Birthplace literally once ever. There has to be some weighting, the true RNG on that would be absolutely bonkers.

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u/entropy512 Sep 30 '22

Yeah. Nightfalls always have a strike-specific set of modifiers.

Heroic strikes had a particular set of modifiers and rotated those through all strikes.

The Vanguard Ops playlist has some modifiers, but they're nowhere near as interesting/meaningful as the Heroic Strikes modifiers were. For example, Arc Burn on a fallen strike would huuuuurt, but you also had some insane positive modifiers that could could build around. Stuff like Zhalo Week (Primary damage bonus + arc burn), or "Peregrine Greaves Oneshots Everything" (Arcburn + Airborne + Brawler) Week.

Now Bungie overdoes the negative modifiers while not having the "insanely fun" positives.

13

u/BaconIsntThatGood Jade Rabbit is my Spirit Animal Sep 30 '22

The Nightfall / Grandmaster situation isn't a bad starting point, having things on a rotator with modifiers. We just need to take that idea and scale it down to something more casual friendly.

There's a reason less people complain about Nightfalls, especially master+ - it's actually engaging in terms of difficulty and offers rewards that make it worth the time.

No one has a problem playing the same strike over and over and over. People have a problem with always playing the same strikes and they don't offer real rewards or any engagement

3

u/CruffTheMagicDragon Sep 30 '22

I agree, just adding stuff just makes it more bloated and harder to get the map or strike that players actually want to play

5

u/zdude0127 Vanguard's Loyal Sep 30 '22

Rotate the groups of adds each time you run the strike like in D1 (think Taken King era strikes). It would be a start anyway.

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u/_limly Oct 01 '22

genuinely, one of my most fun times in this game in recent memory was in Guardian Games running strikes. I reset my vanguard rank 3 times during that, it was so so much fun having at least a little bit of difficulty (from matchmade legend strikes) and also having strike scoring and all the fun medals popping up on my screen. I DESPERATELY want that to just be a normal thing, including all the medals!!!! it was so fun being able to try out new builds with little pressure but still some level of difficulty. It also meant I got really familiar with the lightblade haha

2

u/brain_dances Oct 02 '22

I always liked the strike scoring system towards the end of D1. I was hoping they would continue to refine it in D2, but alas, a lot of basic features were missing for awhile.

18

u/Sp00kyD0gg0 Sep 30 '22

There’s more to it than just “new maps” IMO. Strikes for example are lacking even if the Strike is brand spanking new, because the Strike Playlist is just so lackluster and unfun to play.

Core playlists need a loop overhaul. Strikes need scoring, density increase across the board, and multiple variations to keep things fresh (D1 had all these things, as a reminder). Gambit needs new maps, but some fresh game modes wouldn’t hurt. What about a no-Invade mode, or a “costs motes to invade” mode, or a “costs motes to spawn heavy” mode, or a “invade to kill you opponent’s Primeval while they defend” mode, or an ALL OF THE ABOVE mode? Crucible needs servers first and foremost, but party game modes more than anything. Infection, oddball, vehicles, the works. Hell I’ll take Sparrow Racing. Just SOMETHING to keep things fresh!

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u/RezzInfernal Lackey Sep 30 '22

they’re dying from lack of good rewards and lack of content.

6

u/Crypto_Cat_-_- Oct 01 '22

And forcing us to use certain guns in nightfalls. I like to use my own builds so I tend to stay in activities that let use my own builds without having to worry about champions or missing out on damage because of an elemental burn.

3

u/RezzInfernal Lackey Oct 01 '22

i’m not as upset about having to use certain guns in nightfalls because there are a lot of good weapons out there and having to build a setup i wouldn’t normally use for a high level activity is kinda fun.

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u/ChewTommy Sep 30 '22

Idk what it was but for some reason I used to be able to throw on music & play D1 strikes for hours. I just get bored with D2 strikes. I guess it was the Skelton keys trying to get an imago loop or that scout that looks like the VoC from VOG

38

u/Gen7lemanCaller Sep 30 '22

this is it. strike specific unique loot was fun to grind for

8

u/angrybluechair Goblin Sep 30 '22

Psion Flayer cloaks were so cool.

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u/Chad_richard Sep 30 '22

They were core in D1 and early D2, but after a while they started to seem more like chores than something I played for fun. My personal core game play is the seasonal content because it has the most interesting rewards, and when I'm done grinding it I don't have time for anything else

49

u/BaconIsntThatGood Jade Rabbit is my Spirit Animal Sep 30 '22

While it'd be nice to have more variety in stikes, crucible maps, and gambit that won't solve the problem.

The problem is:

  • The normal strike playlist isn't engaging and isn't very rewarding. It offers nothing for a lot of players in terms of rewards. Notice how nightfall variety isn't really complained about as much? This is because master+ is actually rewarding for your time and people care less about the strike itself. Notice how on guardian games when there were strike scoring, modifiers, and legend-esque difficulty present and suddenly complaints about the same strikes weren't there? Because it was engaging and provided extra rewards.
  • Crucible has issues beyond maps to resolve. Right now the problem is heavy ability spam that needs to be tuned back in. The basic playlist also isn't to rewarding beyond a single gun and some rank up rewards. The matchmaking and team balancing is questionable, at best. However notice how there's less complaints about map variety in trials, especially when it's freelance? Because it offers rewards that are actually worth your time.
  • Gambit refresh seemed to stop, people have too many issues with the game mode. They could add a new map every week for the end of time and people would still complain about how bad gambit it. It also has the same rewards issue as the above.

So it'd be nice to get new maps but that's not the reason these playlists are having issues.

16

u/Goldwing8 Oct 01 '22

I have a theory Gambit has seen so little work because it was made almost entirely by one of the Activision support studios more or less in isolation from the rest of the game, and Bungie themselves barely understand how it works under the hood.

5

u/TTUStros8484 Oct 01 '22

Would explain why motes STILL fall through the ground.

2

u/ZeroMythosVer Bring it Back Oct 01 '22

Plausible considering how PC performance has degraded the further we get away from Y2

Like, hell; feels as though they barely understand how an entire platform works under the hood sometimes

I miss VV and High Moon’s porting and performance optimization skills, and I miss their clear love of the best parts of this franchise (they made Whisper quest, most of Warmind, and I think Zero Hour too, as well as several other puzzle and/or scavenger hunt style Exotic quests)

77

u/DJRaidRunner-com Sep 30 '22

Italics and strikethrough would probably be an easier way to visually tell which are ported and which are vaulted. As is, the information is noisy.

50

u/Kildozer666 Sep 30 '22

I’m not a very smart man…

6

u/MoreMegadeth Oct 01 '22

I thought it was very easy to follow.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '22

I am so desperate I wouldn't even care if they just unvaluted some of the old ones and threw them in the rotation even if they don't make sense because the planet isn't there.

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u/strawberry_girls probably afk Sep 30 '22

It’s strange because the same logic doesn’t apply to gambit, Titan isn’t there anymore and yet I can still get Deep Six three times in a row

11

u/Gen7lemanCaller Sep 30 '22

but then they still took away the tangled shore map with the lava pits

5

u/DaoFerret Oct 01 '22

and the Dreaming City map with the electric moats.

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u/Doomestos1 Proud flying birb Sep 30 '22

With Taken King Bungie added 8 maps to Crucible. 8. Fucking. Maps. I don't want that many maps from them on each expansion, but it would be nice to be getting atleast 3 new maps per year. Currently we are getting 1 new map a year (and only from TWQ forward) and the rest is mix of D1 and D2 remakes. Gambit? It gets nothing. NOTHING.

5

u/DaoFerret Oct 01 '22

Gambit doesn’t get nothing it gets negative.

Gambit lost two maps from its paltry rotation.

7

u/mysteryelyts Sep 30 '22

Half the strikes are gone too. I don’t want to load a strike & find a battleground mission tbh

Give me garden world, tree of probabilities, strange terrain, xol, pyramidion, Savathuns song.

Hell bring some of D1s strikes, put them in a legend playlist but let them count as Strikes.

31

u/GreenBay_Glory Sep 30 '22

They’re ignored because they are f2p. Why put money into a system that people get for free?

23

u/Arrow_Maestro Oct 01 '22

Because the paid players also play and its languishing.

0

u/GreenBay_Glory Oct 01 '22

Doesn’t matter. They won’t make money off of it.

8

u/XboxUser123 Reprised Fighting Lion Noob-Tuber Oct 01 '22

Because if there is nothing to incentivize the free-play crowd why should they be interested.

You can throw advertisements at a player all you want, but that won't convince them to buy-in as letting them experience the fun and having them think "yeah, this is worth it and I think I will get my money's worth."

You can play VoG for free. After playing that you think "huh, Deep Stone Crypt has some good weapons and this raid thing is kinda fun. Why don't I buy Beyond Light?"

The worse the entry-level is, the less income of players you'll have and in return the less profit potential you have.

You can write how good you are to your future employer, but that isn't going to convince them to invest into you as much as showing your prior experience and success.

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u/Phaazed Sep 30 '22

Gambit for sure is lacking. 4 maps is what makes the mode feel stale quickly, more so than any of the other issues of the mode. This doesn't apply to Crucible and Strikes though. At some point there's a diminishing return for adding new content. Instead the focus needs to shift to improving the current content.

Bungie already acknowledged that older strikes need an update for enemy density, boss health, etc. This is the thing to prioritize. The same thing needs to happen for PvP. Move some of the worst maps off rotation to improve the flow of them.

Most people will point out the rewards for playing also. Sure, that gives us a reason to play, but it doesn't fix how fun the content is.

13

u/CruffTheMagicDragon Sep 30 '22

Just adding strikes isn't going to change anything. People will just play the new strikes over and over and over and then complain that it's boring and the Strike playlist is dead

11

u/Ventee_ Sep 30 '22

I think the “average per season” needs to be the average of all of them released AFTER season 1, because season 1 was just launch, right?

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u/Hanswurst0815123 Sep 30 '22

playing strikes/gambit which are many years old for 1 new playlist weapon every season is just lame at this point...also when bungie someday removes the pinnacle/power grind people will see how shallow this game really is because there will be nearly zero incentive to play any of these stuff

3

u/PoorlyWordedName Sep 30 '22

New strikes would be nice. Like 10 of them. Or bringing back the ones they took just revamp them or something.

4

u/Ricyclist Sep 30 '22

Aren't all the core playlist free-to-play?

Maybe that's why they don't invest in them.

5

u/WinnerForsaken Sep 30 '22

If they made the core playlists worthwhile and fun I don't think I'd put the game down. I used to run strikes for hours in D1; now I can't stand loading into one in D2.

4

u/lord_jamcuhh Sep 30 '22

These playlists are so dry bc Bungie can't monetize them, so why would they put development time into them?

While I'm not sure how to fix that problem for Gambit and Crucible, I think adding a Legend Strikes Playlist that requires the most current Expansion would be the way to go. Make it Legend modifiers, add scoring to it, and then add exclusive variants of strikes to it (like a Shadow Legion version of the Arms Dealer once they arrive in Lightfall).

9

u/keklordalmighty Spicy Pineapple Sep 30 '22

I just want Will of the Thousands back :(

Nokris stole Xol's chances of ever being bumped up to Grandmaster difficulty multiple times and it's frustrating that we may never get that chance again.

5

u/Force321X I will always find a way to spam tether Oct 01 '22

Oh man my soul hurts all over again remembering that. I miss when my buddy and I first got Whisper and immediately went and killed him with himself and from then on, made a funny skit out of it. "Oh god is that me? Is that me stronger than me? ILL F**ING KILL ME." Stuff like that. I'm hoping with this "no more content vaulting" eventually leads to the vault being emptied and destroyed. Just a hope right now though

9

u/HockeyFan_37 Sep 30 '22

I would grind the playlists if we could craft the new weapons added every season.

I want the 120 hand cannon with very specific perks. I am not going to run baseline Warden of Nothing for the millionth time just to get a poorly rolled Fortissimo.

Spent 2 hours grinding the strike playlist. Half the time it was just mats and glimmer. I can bum around on patrol and find chests for that return much faster lol.

3

u/Still-Koala Sep 30 '22

I'm in the same boat hunting for a few specific rolls of pure Poetry. I'll probably end up just waiting until after GMs and gilding conqueror when I'll have another reset or two done to try farming it again. The 12 perks per column makes looking for specific rolls exhausting.

I'll be sticking with loud Lullaby and Sturm for a while

2

u/Spirit_Bloom Sep 30 '22

Resetting your rank in each playlist now helps mitigate that grind a bit. Getting 2-3 perks in the last two columns is nice. But yeah, Bungie painted themselves into a corner when crafting entered the game.

2

u/HockeyFan_37 Sep 30 '22

Yeah I know. But I have to do the same exact dumb grind just to get to that point.

2

u/Spirit_Bloom Oct 01 '22

Sucks. I know.

3

u/Crowsnest_Bomber Sep 30 '22

I haven't liked any of the pvp maps introduced since s3. No wonder my interest has taken a dive this year.

3

u/dreadnaughtus117 Ass Harvester (Adept) Sep 30 '22

32 pvp maps wtf?

9

u/ryan13ts Sep 30 '22

Vanguard is in an alright state, it just doesn't help that we only really get new strikes at the major expansions now.. but at least it's something

Crucible has been languishing for some time now, and it's insane we went 7 seasons without ANY maps, and almost 10 before we got a true "new" map..and it stinks, unfortunately. You can tell their map making skills have atrophied, which is all the more reason we need more maps regularly (and not just D1 implants).

Gambit.. dear God, don't start me on Gambit. I love this mode, but it's truly been left to die. I made a post recently on how Gambit has more or less intentionally been abandoned by Bungie and left to exist on autopilot (My biggest realization of this is when Joe Blackburn was asked about the 3 core playlists going into Lightfall, he went into detail about new things/changes Crucible and Vanguard would get... and didn't have a single word to say about Gambit). It's situation is more dire than the other 2 combined and multiplied. No new maps in years, it actually has maps REMOVED, the heavy ammo economy has screwed up much of the loop of PVE/PVP balance... there's much more too, but most players know the problems it faces.

In an ideal world, I'd say they really need to put focus on improving Gambit since it's most dire, but that's been made perfectly clear by Bungie that's never going to happen now. So I'd say PVP should be getting the focus on bringing new content to.

2

u/AceTheRed_ Oct 01 '22

Hey don’t forget the crucible had multiple maps removed as well.

2

u/TTUStros8484 Oct 01 '22

Vanguard is pretty unrewarding still.

5

u/BattleBull Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

Frankly I'm not doing anymore strikes, I've played them enough. Bought it and Beat it, as they say.

Until Bungie makes new stuff for strikes there is no reason to do them outside of pinnacles for the sake of leveling enough for GMs/Master content. Even then THAT content is still old and rehashed, why would I want to do a GM strike that I've already beaten? It's over, it's done, the content is consumed. We don't have events in Strikes to change stuff up, like a chance for the Vex to invade a Taken strike, or side passages open up leading to differ routing and events. Anything to keep the minute to minute events varied.

At least Crucible is PVP and allows for dynamic play versus humans that feels fresh, even if the map pool is anything but.

Give modding tools to the public bungie! Look at how good TF2 and WC3 map makers are, just take the good things they make and turn them into offical content; anything to up your volume of new game play.

6

u/MyNameIs_KObi Oct 01 '22

Give modding tools to the public bungie

That Bungie is loooooong gone

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u/Dahlidor Sep 30 '22

Its just a small Indie company, we should focus on playing alot and buying as much as we can from Eververse so they can slowly progress the game.

10

u/savagefishstick Sep 30 '22

they're too busy selling hats and coats and jewelry and beer steins to make core content.

2

u/CowTussler Oct 01 '22

And the whales gobble up all the merchandise regardless of the state of the game.

3

u/Stochastic_Analysis Sep 30 '22

The issue is that core gameplay development stopped. Expansions and seasons don’t mix anything up - they add a seasonal activity, five or six weapons, a few exotics, and uh… a dungeon? Like the content that’s actually being churned out is genuinely pitiful for the price. Compare it to the annual CoD release for a similar price range. Witch Queen gave us a very solid campaign which was fun, some new guns, a balance pass on a subclass and a raid. CoD drops with a campaign, zombies, multiplayer, and a suite of guns and perks with tweaks and changes to every aspect of the game. If you want proof of how much effort they put into varying the games, look at how much the community complains about variations in things like hud design, ui design, sound design, perk design, etcetera. They touch every aspect of the experience for good or bad and attempt to innovate it. Destiny has basically tossed a new map into the decade old mix and called it a day. It’s low effort.

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u/cdiddy11 Sep 30 '22

Strike playlist also includes Battlegrounds.

Also, looking at average per season includes the massive amount from D2 launch. When you remove that count and only consider average per season from S2 on, it's pitiful.

Another way of looking at it is how many maps we got which each major DLC release. It's plummeted considerably since Forsaken, and many of those maps were vaulted anyway.

Tldr, the core playlist content drought is far worse than the numbers presented here suggest.

7

u/Kildozer666 Sep 30 '22

IMO - adding a super lame seasonal activity to the core playlist doesn’t meet the “new strike” standard. Alternatively, I think it shines a brighter light on Bungie’s laziness towards the content they put out these days.

9

u/Gen7lemanCaller Sep 30 '22

tbh i feel like battlegrounds are more fun to run through than most of the strikes

1

u/MontuJP Biting Winds is bae Sep 30 '22

I don’t like them nearly as much because they have no real story and they were clearly just thrown in as a stopgap instead of adding new strikes. However, I think they are enjoyable because they have a LOT of enemies to kill compared to most strikes, which is a big issue with how powerful a team of 3 guardians has become.

2

u/Kildozer666 Sep 30 '22

What would be rad is if Bungie just did a core-playlist revival season & added all vaulted content back to the game, port the remaining D1 content, & add some new bosses, maps, & strikes. Dumping all of that at one time WOULD revitalize the core playlists & they could keep it alive by adding to it each season going forward. But, Bungie’s current model is to put the least amount of effort into the Destiny franchise while keeping it at max profitability.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '22

Dying? According to who?

There’s 70k people playing strikes and 120k people playing crucible right now. That’s 7% and 12% of the entire population currently online, respectively.

“Dying”??

2

u/Black_Knight_7 Sep 30 '22

Strikes need modifiers. Small Arms, Specialist, PRISM (a very fun negative modifier).

They added a few neat ones recently, and some absolute dog shit ones. I didn't mind the slow touch one but the one with the horribly low ability regen sucks. We also need once a month daybreak weeks (just use the guardian games system).

As long as normal strikes dont have match game im fine.

I genuinely have no memory of heroic strikes from D1 being insanely fun, its all the same to me tbh. I dont think strikes were difficult because of anything in them, its because we were way weaker. bungie also said they want to update old strikes to be more dense.

5

u/Talkimas Sep 30 '22

bungie also said they want to update old strikes to be more dense.

This would definitely help a lot imo. Everything just dies so quickly that it makes the strikes feel dull. A lot of strikes would be improved by not only increasing the number of enemies in a lot of sections, but increasing the hp of both regular enemies and especially bosses. Sure it may make them take longer, but instagibbing a boss in 4 seconds gets old pretty quick. I miss how strikes felt in Y1 of D2 where bosses lived long enough for their mechanics to matter and there was a level of innate challenge rather than the bulk of any difficulty that's stil there coming from modifiers

2

u/Black_Knight_7 Sep 30 '22

I love the vanilla strikes a lot, arms dealer is a fun strike, give it 50% more enemies and theres enough to go around

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u/Young_hollow674 Sep 30 '22

I’d rather just more challenging bosses and mini bosses with mechanics more adds just sounds like a boring blood bath

3

u/Black_Knight_7 Sep 30 '22

Thats what strikes are tho, bunch of dudes holed up in a place, we take em out. More intriguing boss mechanics sounds fun on paper, but then i think about corrupted. I think bungie sets certain parameters on how difficult it wants strikes to be in terms of technical stuff. I dont think we see a drastic increase in boss difficulty. I just see strikes for what they are.

0

u/Young_hollow674 Sep 30 '22

I dunno the corrupted is really good imo first time I got conq I had a lot of failed attempts in it and when I finally got it, it felt more rewarding, that light blade (hive guardians) and proving grounds are a good level of difficulty and mechanics tbh

1

u/Black_Knight_7 Sep 30 '22

For me, i genuinely do love the strike. But running into brain dead blueberries makes me not want to do it with randoms. When it goes well its very fun

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u/archoncrash Sep 30 '22

1-2 new maps and strikes per season is just impossible, it just is. I think most people would appreciate 1-2 strikes an expansion and like 3 maps, that feels good enough.

1

u/Ukis4boys Sep 30 '22

I'm +18 with perfect armor and nearly everything crafted. I do not touch gambit (until the end of the season to knock out my bright dust challenges). I do not touch crucible (same story). I do not touch strikes (until I want to farm GMs for shards). These "core" activities are anything but "core" for me.

1

u/SpectralGhost77 Sep 30 '22

They are not dying, only gambit is and it hardly counts at this point

1

u/axel2041 Sep 30 '22

I think it ok the way it is. Already spend too much time on this game the way it is, if they start add new things every season it will né overwhelming. Have others game to play

1

u/[deleted] Sep 30 '22

It’s called core activity because everything revolves around them. Every single event,(dawning, Halloween solstice) whether it’s bounties etc. they do need some love but asking bungie to release new strikes every season would be a crazy thing. Maybe if they rotated nightfalls like the old vaulted ones with modifiers I think the masses would be happy with that

2

u/TTUStros8484 Oct 01 '22

No it's the fact that neither strikes or nightfalls are rewarding anymore

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u/lemmeeatyourass Oct 01 '22

But DTG is pining over Eido and this boring season, like what’s the point of having all these red borders if we just steam roll the seasonal content and then go to the same old core stuff.

0

u/Edwardc4gg Sep 30 '22

why should i just run anything, if i'm forced to run bounties to do high level content then why do i need to do them. God I miss when you just did stuff and got rewarded. this seasonal model has really killed the fun outside of new raids and achievements with them to me.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 30 '22

[deleted]

2

u/HikingBirdingDying Sep 30 '22

The seasons are the release dates

-15

u/toomanyscrubsond2 Sep 30 '22

SBMM killed PvP

8

u/Kildozer666 Sep 30 '22

Disagree. SBMM vs. CBMM will be an argument until the end of time. A balance between the two is what makes matchmaking feel good. I think the thing killing PvP is lack of maps & AE.

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u/Zeniphyre Drifter's Crew // Alright alright alright Sep 30 '22

It didn't. If you need to kill new players to be good at the game, you're not good at the game.

1

u/michifromcde Sep 30 '22

I would love for bungie to bring reprise some strikes back from D1, also reprside the vaulted D2 ones, I would also love for at least, 1 new strike per season, i know it's too much work but back from season of the chosen, the finale was the proving grounds strike.

1

u/chicorican Sep 30 '22

As long as those areas of the game are free to play nothing is going to change. Vanguard ops playlist will only see additions that are subsidized by seasonal or expansion content purchases. We have former moon strikes that became nightmare hunts & empire hunts which are just exclusive strikes that should be in the playlist. But there’s only so much “free” you can give away

1

u/anonymous32434 Sep 30 '22

The risen battlegrounds need to be in the playlist now instead of when lightfall drops