r/GlobalTalk • u/IAmTotallyNotOkay Philippines • 26d ago
[Question] Is your country experiencing a brain drain? Question
For those who don't know a brain drain is "the emigration of highly trained or intelligent people from a particular country". my country is full of people leaving to get higher paying jobs in richer countries some fully immigrate others just stay for the work.
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u/Tinie_Snipah Aotearoa 26d ago
NZ certainly has been, people can get paid far more for the same work in Australia. Or even Europe in many cases you will be able to get more savings. Not sure to what extent that has been reversed by people returning to NZ since last year though
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u/mylanguage 26d ago
Big time, I’m from the Caribbean and we literally learn about this in the early days of high school. If our best and brightest all came back I swear economies could double.
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u/clarkinum 25d ago
No it wouldnt, those people left because they didn't have room for growth, the thing with capitalism is you need capital, so as long as government doesn't decide to fund smart people it wouldnt make much difference
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u/CallerNumber4 25d ago
I think the relationship runs both ways. Yes a country can better incentivize people to stay but talented people definitely bring up the overall system. Access to capital definitely affects starting a business but brain drain isn't only for entrepreneurs and people don't only leave for money. Local corruption, instability, lack of culture, climate preferences-- all sorts of minor and major categories play into those decisions.
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u/clarkinum 25d ago
Exactly, and in my opinion all of those things are tied to the culture and culture is tied to education. So you need to develop culture and trust in primary education systems first to be able to prevent brain drain and to develop a country. But most countries prefer to teach nationalism, and opposite of trust (with stupid exams and competition) instead of collectivism and a sense of safeness.
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u/ImFineJustABitTired 26d ago
Malaysian here, I'm pretty sure if you looked up "countries with the worst brain drain" on Google you'd find my country in the top 10 across multiple sources. In fact, the main motivation for most kids for studying hard is to emigrate
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u/Wiggly96 Change the text to your country 25d ago
What is wrong with Malaysia that everyone wants to immigrate?
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u/ImFineJustABitTired 25d ago
Oh god where do I even begin? Rampant corruption, subpar salaries combined with a toxic working culture, but mostly because of the blatant racism. Skin color is such a big deal here that you even get a "discount" when you buy land if you're the correct race (up to 15% off, actually) . Straight A students also have to compete with low-B/high-C students for scholarships/grants because, again, they're the wrong color. Honestly I could go on and on, including a recently repealed law that says companies that are going public MUST have 30% of their total shares in the hands of someone from a certain race, or else their IPO would be straight up considered invalid.
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u/Wiggly96 Change the text to your country 25d ago
Oh man, that's rough. I'm sorry to hear that, my awareness of Malaysia only goes so far as the food being excellent
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u/CriticDanger 25d ago
Yeah if anyone thinks the west is racist, visit Malaysia for perspective lol. Asia in general maybe, every shade of brown is treated differently and pretty much all native tribes are treated poorly.
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u/ImFineJustABitTired 25d ago
Actually, the natives are the ones with all the power in Malaysia, but I understand what you're saying
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u/Jaune9 25d ago
French people often go to either Canada or USA for everything tech and some things science
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u/ThatsSomeoneElse France 25d ago
France has shitty salaries when it comes to high education jobs... We've all been pushed to pursue masters degrees, there's so many of us now that companies can hire at lower salaries, we would fight to get a job or leave the country anyway.
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u/Wild_Marker Argentina 25d ago
Reading this thread you'd think all the brains are going to space, everybody gets drain apparently!
Our big brain drain periods come and go, usually exhacerbated by instability. Our darkest hour was during the dictatorship years where brains were actively persecuted. Also during the 2001 economic crisis, lots of people running off to Spain. These days it's calmed down a bunch, AFAIK most of the current "brain drain" happens in the tech sector due to lack of capital. We don't lack for tech companies but they don't exactly pay as nicely as those abroad and tech people are very... mobile.
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u/just_another_tard 26d ago
Germany, yes we do. About 180k people emigrate per year, 76% of those are academics and on average they earn better abroad. On average 130k of them return but only after they spent the most productive decades of their lives abroad. 5% of Germans are currently living abroad which is the third highest number in the OECD after Poland and UK. If you're a very high earner Germany is unfortunately a very unattractive country since we have the highest tax burden in the world (having recently overtaken Belgium for that title).
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u/prostetnic 25d ago
According to this article (German), researchers don’t call this a braindrain, but a ‚brain circulation‘, as many of those people return after a few years. Also there is immigration from foreign academics into Germany, so it seems not to be an issue really.
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u/IAmTotallyNotOkay Philippines 26d ago edited 22d ago
Wow like Canada below i didn't think Germany would have a big brain drain. actually a lot of my relatives are actually planning to immigrate there for work.
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u/Wiggly96 Change the text to your country 25d ago
It's possible to have a good life here if you work hard, but in terms of earning higher salaries, it is not top of the market globally speaking like Switzerland or the US. What Germany does offer is a good health system and levels of inequality that is not completely out of control
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u/bel_esprit_ 25d ago
A lot of Germans cross the border to work in Switzerland because the salary is higher in Switzerland. (Same with Italians and French who live near the Swiss border)
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u/okaymoose Canada 25d ago
I think this is relative. Canada also has a very high immigrant influx each year. But countries with lots of immigrants can also have lots of emigration. Everyone wants a better life and every country has somewhere that looks better to them. The only except I can see would be those who live in Dubai atm in those rich ass places.
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u/I_LOVE_MOM 26d ago
What's your tax rate? Here in the US I pay about 38% of my income in taxes (and another ~15% from employer), plus 8% sales tax.
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u/[deleted] 25d ago
India - I'm 25M. Most people in my circle is emigrating to Germany, Ireland, Canada and the US.
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u/okaymoose Canada 26d ago
I think people in Canada have always looked for work in the USA because there are more jobs and they usually pay about 5 times as much.
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u/IAmTotallyNotOkay Philippines 26d ago
Truly?. Canada is the last country I'd think of experiencing a brain drain
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u/minervina 26d ago
Our education system is cheaper than the US and the pay is somewhat lower, so people get their cheap education here and go work in the States.
Same with the province of Quebec, basically cheapest education in Canada and we're losing a lot of her highly qualified people to the rest of Canada too.
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u/whistleridge 25d ago edited 25d ago
American who went to law school in Quebec:
I got into Columbia for law school. Cost of attendance: ~ $500k USD. Tuition alone is ~$52k per semester, then you have to pay to live in Manhattan on top of that.
I also got into McGill for law school. Cost of attendance ~$100k CDN, or ~$65k USD. Tuition is ~$4k CDN per year, and Montreal is DAMN cheap for a big city.
The two schools are very comparably ranked, with some rankings even putting McGill higher. (To be clear: that second one is delusional; Columbia is a (marginally) better school...but it's nothing like $400k better)
You can get a job with large NYC firms out of McGill just as easily as you can out of Columbia, and if huge firms aren't your thing, have 1/5-1/10 of the debt means you have a lot more flexibility to go where you like and do what you want.
But yeah: not a lot of McGill grads stay in Quebec. I'd say maybe a third.
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u/alien6 25d ago
I considered going to McGill for graduate school solely because of the price. I cannot stand cold weather and I don't speak French (though I understand that's not uncommon in parts of Montreal), but Quebec is the only province in Canada that doesn't charge triple to attend if you're not from Canada. I guess most Canadian universities have to tack on fees and charges for international students so they don't get inundated by Americans, but it still sucks.
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u/whistleridge 25d ago
Well, to be clear, I had in-province tuition thanks to my wife. But even without it, it’s only $26k/year or so.
I’m from NC originally, so yeah: the winters were…an adjustment.
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u/CriticDanger 25d ago
Professional jobs get paid about 2x less than in the US if you account for taxes. Easy decision.
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u/StripesOverSolids Change the text to your country 25d ago
Canada is an interesting case (or maybe very normal? I don’t know a ton about other countries experiences), because while we do have a lot of emigration like the first commenter said, we also have a ton of immigration from other countries academics! Especially India and eastern Asian countries, we get a lot of academics coming from there. I have no idea if it’s more or less than leave Canada though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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u/okaymoose Canada 26d ago edited 25d ago
There's basically zero jobs. Seriously, it's ridiculous. I've been unemployed since 2018. Good thing we have a mediocre welfare program.
Edit: funny how I'm getting down voted and yall are in the comments talking about tech jobs. Tell me some other fields that have lots of room in them. Maybe nurses and doctors because everyone's quitting? Maybe oil jobs because they are risking their lives and get government subsidies in those industries? Maybe welding because its also risky and Canada has needed welders for at least like 20 years?
How about y'all tell me where to look and I'll look there. Minimim wage jobs are crap. Only high school students are hired because they can be paid less. Assistant managers and manager positions all need experience in that area but none will give that experience. Many fields DO have too many people looking for work while cutting jobs like crazy because everyone thinks they can overwork their employees. Even co ops are hard to find in many fields because NOBODY wants to train anyone anymore.
This is my experience. Feel free to correct me but don't just spit out ONE field that most people cannot do and takes thousands of hours to learn.
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u/Idliketothank__Devil 26d ago
Bullshit.
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u/[deleted] 26d ago
[deleted]
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u/grindemup 26d ago
There are loads of high tech jobs in Canada as well - comparable to US? No, but if you can't find tech jobs aplenty then you ain't looking. Especially now, they're in high demand.
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u/squirrelcat88 24d ago
But it’s not just about the money; some people prefer the weather in other places.
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u/parmesao1 25d ago
In Italy, brain drain is very much a talked about problem. Any young person who speaks a second language well (especially English), has at the very least, considered moving abroad for work. Then if you speak English and have a skill like engineering or programming, you will have some people straight up asking you, ‘why are you still here?’ Haha
Salaries in Italy are low, and serious career growth is seen by many as almost impossible without nepotism or extreme luck. Then there is also a lot of pessimism towards the government. One thing that unites most Italians politically is the idea that most of the politicians are either corrupt, a clown, or both. So, there is very little hope that the economic situation will see real change for the better anytime soon.
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u/TrainingNail Brazil 25d ago
Brazil is a big one. Two of my brothers are top in their fields, currently working at huge US and Canada companies. We’ve always suffered from this, less from 2002 - 2016, but now we’re at that again since all science funding was cut drastically. It’s really sad honestly. We have more potential than you’d think. We could be greater than any EU country but history, know. It just wasn’t meant to be.
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u/jem_jam_bo 25d ago
I see your profile is from the Philippines. Pinoy-American here.
As both of us know, it’s pretty bad. Education, economy, healthcare, sanitation, government, policing, transport, pollution.
Last I checked, Pinoys are one of the largest and most widespread immigrant groups (over 12 mil)
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u/guptabhi 25d ago
Yes for India. It is just a known fact in most asian countries. The pay difference is huge, work life balance actually exists and new experiences are abundant.
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u/hajamieli Finland 26d ago
Yes, and not only is the pay shit, the economy is and has been for a long time, and taxation is way too high to make any sense to the minority of net tax payers of 30-ish %. Probably fine for the majority of the population for the time being living off the few, and ever increasing foreign debt, but it's not a sustainable system and the sooner they realize it, the better.
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u/FluorineR 26d ago
I thought you were from Finland! Why are you describing Canada??
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u/hajamieli Finland 26d ago
It's the same here. I'm actually surprised I don't get downvoted as usual for speaking out the truth about our system.
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u/Wiggly96 Change the text to your country 25d ago
I think a lot of people have skewed/idealized visions of Scandinavian nations that are warped by things like global happiness ratings and Instagram photos of fjords. I don't mean to be rude asking this, but do you think they rate so highly on global happiness ratings because the suicide and alcoholism rates are so high? I assume it has something to do with the lack of sun and the cold. But I am also speaking from an outside perspective, so I am not entirely familiar as a local would be
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u/hajamieli Finland 25d ago
global happiness ratings
Yeah, and those ratings are seriously skewed by cultural standards. See, we're not allowed to complain, that's looked down on culturally. Therefore people not listing "this and this and this sucks about the society" and instead get "I'm fine" in the questionaries means we get high ratings on happiness. Part of this culture has to do with the famines, wars and disasters the Swedish and Russian (and USSR) imperial politics brought on us, so we should not complain about anything, since we're lucky to at least be alive.
alcoholism rates are so high
This is a direct effect of alcohol prohibition, prices of smuggled alcohol raising to the skies, and then after prohibition state alcohol monopoly and extreme alcohol taxation keeping the prices high. Places like Germany who never had alcohol prohibition also have practically zero alcohol taxes and don't have the suicidal, life-crippling alcoholism we have in places like this.
Also mind you, Finns don't drink more alcohol a year than other Europeans, but we do the common thing of extremely expensive alcohol everywhere: have to drink it strong and quickly to get as good bang/buck (meaning as blackout drunk as possible with as little money as possible). Metabolism otherwise erases the effect like on milder alcohols over time.
As you can see from this diagram (orange is alcohol and tobacco), it's a target of constantly increasing taxation. As a result, thanks to free EU trade, we can now order alcohol to our doorstep for practically nothing as long as we order it from another EU country, and some go for further cost optimization of just getting on the ferry to Estonia with their van, and then loading it full of alcohol in the Estonian side ship terminal, and then head right back. So, then the officials look at the lowered alcohol consuption per domestic sales and think taxation helped reduce the problem, driving the feedback loop, while ignoring the free imports as inconvenient for their agenda.
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u/Luutamo 🇫🇮 Finland 24d ago
Just fyi hajamieli is known to have very warped and negative view of Finland. I don't think I have ever seen him saying anything positive about the country.
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u/Wiggly96 Change the text to your country 24d ago
Oh, I didn't know that. I'm sure it has redeeming qualities too. Thanks for your input
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u/hajamieli Finland 22d ago
Cool poisoning of the well, asshole. You'd have a pretty negative view as well if you were on the net giving side.
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u/Luutamo 🇫🇮 Finland 22d ago
I'm most definitely on the net giving side. This comment just proved my point even more.
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u/hajamieli Finland 22d ago
I'm most definitely on the net giving side
Really, what's your idea of that? Merely having a job doesn't qualify, and having a job on the public sector definitely doesn't qualify.
This comment just proved my point even more.
At least it proves you're a cowardly asshole poisoning the well behind the back of people.
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u/TakeOffYourMask US 26d ago
Pre-Trump I would have said “absolutely not” but I know for a fact that his policies directly led to a huge drop in brain gain, and given the pandemic is still going on I don’t think it has resumed.
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u/are_you_nucking_futs 25d ago
There was a thread in r/askuk if people would want to move to the USA. The Trump presidency and what it signified was a major reason people said they wouldn’t move.
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u/fartinyoursleep 25d ago
No one intelligent enough in my country to qualify. USA 🇺🇸
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u/hajamieli Finland 22d ago edited 22d ago
Bullshit. It's the place a lot of the brain drain people collect to thanks to the lower taxes and better bang/buck at health care etc. We pay it progressively from our income here which makes financially sense mostly to very low income or no income people, but definitely not to anyone smart enough to earn their own living. Practically no-one in US, even millionaires, pay as high sums for the medical insurance as the average income earner in Finland. To me, based on what I pay for this system, it's been averaging at hundreds of thousands of € per visit for me, and I'd rather have had them at private clinics if there wasn't public monopoly on some fields of operations. I've been seriously considering moving to a lower tax country especially since I've been fully remote even before COVID, but I'm tied down by my wife who doesn't want to move.
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u/Nimsant 26d ago
I am from Russia. Brain drain is very high, and the target countries are Germany, Canada, USA. So I am quite surprised to read other posts here.
I have good education and people essentially shame me for staying in Russia.