r/IAmA Aug 11 '21 Take My Power 1 Silver 11 Gold 2 Helpful 16 Wholesome 3 Hugz 12 Bravo Grande! 1

I am a cannabis scientist, ask me anything THC, CBD, or any other cannabis related questions, AMA Science

Hi Reddit, Gair Laucius, Chief Science Officer from High Purity Natural Products here, I am here to answer your questions about cannabis, CBD, THC, or any other cannabinoids you want to ask about.

This AMA is closed! Thanks everyone for the great questions, I'm sorry I couldn't answer them all - If you'd like to know more about my company, please visit https://highpuritynaturalproducts.com/about-us/

My experience:

I am an experienced cannabis researcher with expertise in ethanol and super-critical CO2 extraction, gas chromatography mass spectrometry, and high performance liquid chromatography analytics.

I have also conducted research on Cannabis sativa with specific focus on proteins related to cannabinoid biosynthesis pathways. Extensive research experience with DNA and RNA extraction with downstream PCR and qPCR. Highly experienced in terpene and cannabinoid extraction and profiling using HPLC and GCMS.

If it has anything to do with weed, AMA!

Proof: https://twitter.com/HighPurityNP/status/1425475523858341889

Edit: 12:15PM Will be taking a short break for lunch, will return for some more questions shortly. Keep them coming!

Edit2: 1:00PM Wrapping up for now, hope to answer a few more questions later this evening. Thank you to all who asked questions!

11.4k Upvotes

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851

u/Master_Paladin Aug 11 '21

Is Delta 8 safe?

2.6k

u/HPNP Aug 11 '21 edited Aug 11 '21 Gold Hugz

As an isolated cannabinoid, Delta-8 THC is lacking in peer reviewed research but has been shown to have a similar effect to delta-9 THC both being psychoactive (Delta-8 less psychoactive than delta-9). Delta-8 THC presents concern for me not because of the cannabinoid but because of the manufacturing process behind making it. Delta-8 is converted from CBD by using harsh chemicals and solvents and if care is not taken to remove these byproducts there is the potential for harm. As a consumer it is extremely difficult, almost impossible to verify how well a delta-8 product was manufactured. My recommendation is to not use delta-8 until more regulation can ensure safety across the board.

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u/Master_Paladin Aug 11 '21

Thanks!

96

u/TaxMan_East Aug 11 '21

Delta 8 gummies and vape caused raised eye pressure for me, was very painful but has since gone away.

21

u/Creeping_python Aug 11 '21

Yikes that sounds miserable, glad it went away

33

u/BungSmuggler Aug 11 '21

Yeah I tried a delta 8 vape and it really hurt my lungs. I immediately was like nope, my body is telling me the shit is bad news.

30

u/AyyLmaoD8 Aug 11 '21 Wholesome Take My Energy

You very likely just bought a product with a harsh terpene profile. A lot of sketchy vendors selling shitty product unfortunately.

I have been using Delta 8 medicinally for a year now and navigating around people taking advantage of the "free THC" idea is tough but possible. There are many active vendors and producers, like Delta Alternatives, who are super transparent about their processes and have multiple independent full panel lab tests for their products.

If you ever want to give it another shot, come join /r/delta8 or the Guilded and people can help you figure it out! I say all of this just because D8 has been life changing for me.

12

u/Humpdat Aug 11 '21

Or they bought a bunk cart with whatever weirdo chemicals the person who made it used. That’s exactly the effect of a bad cart.

1

u/BungSmuggler Aug 11 '21

Yep that's what I'm thinking

4

u/blak3brd Aug 11 '21

Why is this life changing in way traditional thc hasn’t been if you don’t mind me asking? Haven’t bothered to try it yet in CA

6

u/AyyLmaoD8 Aug 11 '21

For me, I'm able to be much more productive and clear thinking while under the influence of D8 as compared to traditional D9. D9 also would sometimes increase my anxiety and kind of tunnel me into being a lazy stoner stereotype. It just didn't work with me medically while letting me live my life. With D8 I do not get any paranoia or anxiety, have a clear head, and am able to form really coherent thoughts. Cannabinoids affect everyone in such unique ways and I have found a blend between D8 and other minor cannabinoids like CBG and CBN that have been perfect for me

5

u/TheLawnMow3rMan Aug 11 '21 Take My Energy

Life changing for me as well, and being an at home noid mixologist is super fun. Can confirm good buddy. The Guilded is a great resource and a fella ought to know about it.

3

u/KidTechno92 Aug 11 '21

I definitely have to agree. Life changing. It helps my Autism a lot. I would also recommend r/delta8. Cannabis terpenes are a lot less harsh. I would recommend the guilded server!

0

u/BungSmuggler Aug 11 '21

That's great you've had success with it! I agree I probably got a shitty one, but I definitely won't be judging Delta8 as whole because of it. Maybe I should've worded my comment better lol. Thanks for the sub suggestion, I'll come check it out!

4

u/rsjc852 Aug 11 '21

That's pretty common for all D8 dry flower I've smoked, too. But THC pens in general have always been super harsh to me personally.

D8 harshness really varys by brand and product though. I can only speak for dry flower though.

Kush Kollective's OG Kush was probably the smoothest stuff I've smoked, but it was also the most mid. Their sativa batch is always out of stock same-day, so I'm guessing that's also pretty good one.

Puro Cannagars' pre-rolls are pretty much all harsh, with the exception of Hippie Crasher. If anyone's interested, here's my ratings from smoothest to harshest.

Hippie Crasher -> Mimosa -> Green Crack -> Lemon Haze -> Blue Dream -> GG #4

But GG #4 is 100% worth the pain. It's probably the most potent dry flower I've ever come across.

Avaloo's stuff is pretty great too. Their Moon Rocks are super potent but a little harsh, with Granddaddy Purp being a top-notch blend of smooth and potent.

7

u/Faxme123 Aug 12 '21

There is no natural D8 flower….

2

u/rsjc852 Aug 12 '21

Never said there was, but dry flower does exist.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

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u/TaxMan_East Aug 11 '21

Honestly, the eye pressure increase lasted until several days after I stopped consuming Delta 8 altogether.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

[deleted]

1

u/TaxMan_East Aug 11 '21

Do what you feel is right for your body 😊

1

u/DEDson Aug 11 '21

How long did you smoke for?

1

u/TaxMan_East Aug 11 '21

I've been smoking Delta 9 for close to 4 years, but I had only been consuming Delta 8 for a couple weeks. I was already having colored spots in my vision months prior to having consumed it, so I first thought it was a symptom of that.

Until I looked closely on the back of the bag and it said that it could cause ocular discomfort.

5

u/TheNicestRedditor Aug 11 '21

I definitely had similar effects but thought that the high was more “in your face” and that’s why I felt like my eyes were going to explode lol

4

u/chupathingy99 Aug 11 '21

Tried once, absolutely hated it. You ever spend a day just getting roasted, and at the end of the day you're exhausted from simply smoking too much? Nothing is fun, nothing is funny, you just sorta exist in this state of boring, catatonic meh. It's like that but instant.

1

u/erehin Aug 12 '21

That could be. CBD has also been shown in animals to increase ocular pressure. Preclinically, CBN has been the most promising cannabinoid for ocular pressure but still has lipohilicity/low bioavailability issues.

2

u/Professional_Sort767 Aug 12 '21

This person works for a CBD production company. Delta-8 is a rapidly growing market, and it competes with both cannabis producers and CBD for its effects.

This is all an ad.

85

u/RooXOXXO Aug 11 '21

Very interesting response. Thank you.

Could the same be said for other d9 concentrates on the black market? Would you say that delta 8 is safer than those?

It seems these products are used mostly in grey states and states where medical/recreational hasn’t taken off yet.

169

u/HPNP Aug 11 '21

Sourcing anything that is unregulated such as black market THC is dubious at best. The benefit of purchasing products from legal recreational or medicinal dispensaries is that these programs have regulations to ensure that the products that are sold are tested to ensure safety. Products are tested for Heavy metals, residual solvents, microbials, molds and mycotoxins, and cannabinoids at minimum. The same information cannot be provided for unregulated markets

16

u/spineofgod9 Aug 11 '21

Too bad my dirt poor ancestors had to land in texas and leave me stuck here all these years later. So, black market it is. Unless hell freezes over, anyway.

Y'know, they didn't even have the decency to get rich and move to new england. Jerks.

1

u/lukamic Aug 12 '21

I thought hell froze over ealier this year

2

u/spineofgod9 Aug 12 '21

It thawed again. Then got hotter than ever.

1

u/lukamic Aug 12 '21

My condolences

3

u/potato_aim87 Aug 11 '21

Thanks for doing this AMA. I can't substantiate this but I have heard rumors that some of the labs that do the testing for some states can be bought or that their results are falsified. Do you any knowledge on that? What would your advice to consumers be about the legitimacy of lab results?

8

u/deekaydubya Aug 11 '21

Important to note D8 is not a black market, although there seem to be almost as many counterfeit carts as the D9 market

6

u/drunkdog Aug 11 '21

If you buy from reputable sources you get a coa. Now what the impurities are is another story

4

u/perfecto_falcon Aug 11 '21

not true at all. plenty of "black"/"gray" market products get tested, and some even more rigorously. definitely more topically.

plenty of loopholes in the "legal" market to sluff off products that don't pass testing.

e.g. Companies using the same test for up to two years, fudging allowable limits, bait-and-switch, sample swapping etc etc

3

u/notoriousCBD Aug 11 '21

This absolutely is true. Every batch harvested is required to go through the battery of tests relative to black market flower, which of course has no requirements. He never said black market isn't tested, just that it doesn't have the requirements.

Of course there are loopholes, and some are pretty ridiculous. For Colorado, each batch much have a certain percentage of the final mass go through all of these tests. It is very easy to pick a sample that isn't representative of the whole batch and get the numbers you're looking for. But this would also be easy for any black market grower to do as well. It's why I don't necessarily trust terpene or cannabinoid percentages I see labeled, unless I do it myself or I trust the tester.

I've never purchased black market Cannabis that has been tested with HPLC or shown a Total yeast and mold dilution summary.

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u/3eb489 Aug 11 '21

Yeah this dude is an obvious corporate mouthpiece here to promote the company he works for. You can get higher quality cannabis on the so called “black market” in legal states at a much better price

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u/ExpiredAmmo Aug 11 '21

The unregulated stuff in British Columbia is by far better and cleaner than the legally grown garbage.

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u/Violaceum Aug 11 '21

You might want to look at the report published by the BC government about 2 months ago that says otherwise. They examined microbes and pesticides from black market cannabis and every one of them failed the standards that Health Canada makes the LPs follow. Some of them were 40x over the allowable limits for pesticides.

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u/3eb489 Aug 11 '21

It’s the same in California. While there is high quality legal cannabis, it’s incredibly overpriced at the dispensaries. And at the same dispensaries you’ll find tons of low quality cannabis. It’s better to get your weed from a farmer or a plug who’s directly connected to a farm.

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u/notoriousCBD Aug 11 '21

How do you know that your unregulated flower is "cleaner?"

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u/ExpiredAmmo Aug 11 '21

gas chromatography

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u/notoriousCBD Aug 11 '21

What are you testing for, using GC-MS, that would make your plants not clean?

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u/Dudefest2bit Aug 11 '21

Are delta 8 carts supposed to be clear?

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u/allhailthesatanfish Aug 11 '21

any kind of oil or dab or extract or whatever is going to generally be made with some kind of solvent. you are always taking a risk when buying on black market simply because there are no testing requirements for those blacl market dabs. residual solvent testing is not terribly difficult to do and even an older GC-MS can run a significant profile test. Used to run a cannabis compliance testing lab

I will say, in my experience black market is way less purged and way more likely to be dirty, generally just because you won't have the same access to technology and expertise needed to properly purge

8

u/Fear_Jeebus Aug 11 '21

Did you just say black Market? Doesn't that inherently require risk for the reward?

5

u/iSleepInJs Aug 11 '21

If you’re not in a legal state there still stands a great level of risk involved. The reward being prices half or less than that of legal dispensary prices. Risk v. reward is subjective.

2

u/Fear_Jeebus Aug 11 '21

I forget that it's not entirely legal across the states. Thanks.

4

u/Dj_hardway Aug 11 '21

I've heard that delta 8 will still make your fail a pee test, so to me it would be safer to smoke real weed because like OP said delta 8 is so hard to test.

23

u/iDeNoh Aug 11 '21

Not everyone has they luxury though, delta 8 is legal in my state, delta 9 is not

4

u/spineofgod9 Aug 11 '21

I hate this place.

2

u/oced2001 Aug 11 '21

Kentucky checking in. I hear you, brother

2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

Delta

They show up the same on a drug test.

3

u/iDeNoh Aug 11 '21

I know, what I was saying is that not everyone has the luxury of getting delta 9 thc

3

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

Ah, yeah I misread that.

3

u/Pawco1 Aug 11 '21

From what I have heard, Delta-8 shows a false-positive for Delta-9 THC, but further testing can be done to discern which it is. IMO still not worth the risk because that testing takes time and a lot of companies won't be willing to order a test like that for one single employee and would rather fire you. This also escalates if you are on probation/parole getting tested and getting caught because the consequences are more severe.

Please please take this with a grain of salt because this is the information I have heard from sources that I trust, however it may not be 100% accurate.

1

u/Dj_hardway Aug 11 '21

Thats basically what I've heard too. Like you said some companies would be willing to put you through the extra testing, but the majority wouldnt bother if THC was a deal breaker for them. I personally would rather smoke "real weed" because of the reasons the OP was talking about, d8 being made from cbd using harsh chemicals, and d9 being typically just grown mostly naturally.

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u/claytempleton Aug 11 '21

Does this concern include lab tested Delta 8 products in states where cannabis is legal?

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u/Lulzorr Aug 11 '21 edited Aug 11 '21 Helpful

You won't get a response to this. Delta 8 is being thrown under the bus by big cannabis, but unironically, because it's so cheap. In my state, 1 gram of delta 8 costs $1.50 on the high end (98%) whereas one gram of 'medical grade' delta-9 distillate in a cartridge costs over $100. This is the same talking point as every other news article you will read about the "dangers of delta8".

D8 doesn't have the long term peer reviewed study but note that lab testing from reputable facilities is never actually discussed. Instead, it's "almost impossible" to verify how well the product was manufactured. Don't bother looking at places like TTC or 3Chi who have full panel testing that you can personally verify by researching the testing facilities themselves.

Don't look for independent testing of gas station / smoke shop carts either, because that's never been done before /s and the results aren't public (this is a PDF). Strangely, the carts that were tested appear to be (mostly) fine, but no one who is seriously interested in D8 will tell you to purchase from a smoke shop. The distillate used to create the tested carts is free from the solvents the OP is worried about.

personally, I buy distillate in bulk and make tinctures. I have carts that I filled as well but dont really use, and I use the tinctures that i make on weekends, barely consuming 10mg at a time.

More individual testing - The quest for empirical evidence of harm -

These links are probably NSFW at some point in the threads. Future4200 is a forum meant for scientific research and discussion regarding cannabis.

3

u/ezslapdown Aug 12 '21

3chi all day full lab testing and everything hits clean to me

2

u/Lulzorr Aug 12 '21

3chi is nice but price-wise i'd 100% of the time go for their secondary cheaper brand reefersbay - i'm pretty sure 3chi owns them - or Triangletradingco. Bulk pricing at RB is way better but TTC has great mixes and i've heard amazing things about their badder. RB is probably my next purchase.

2

u/claytempleton Aug 11 '21

Thanks for the details

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

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u/Lulzorr Aug 11 '21

I would avoid it. delta 8 hemp is generally sprayed with distillate dissolved in the solvents you'd be trying to avoid by researching lab testing. It's very uncommon for vendors to even test their flower let alone actually release the information.

You can pretty easily make your own, though. just grind up a couple grams and mix it with heated distillate. essentially making moon rocks without the kief coating... though you could roll it in CBD kief.

Here's the copypasta from the subreddit:

Hey, the Δ⁸ friendly automod here. I see you used the word "sprayed." If this is in reference to D8 sprayed hemp flower, VERY FEW VENDORS provide a residual solvent lab on the final sprayed hemp product. When tested, sprayed hemp (that did not come with a clean solvent test) is full of iso. DO NOT BUY SPRAYED HEMP WITHOUT A SOLVENT TEST.

https://imgur.com/pS4zc5o

-2

u/iwrotedabible Aug 11 '21

D8 products are manufactured to make the overabundance of CBD hemp into something more profitable. No oversight and very few regulations that vary by state. At least legal cannabis concentrates require testing. When you buy D8, you just have to trust the vendor who has no legal compunction to verify what they sell.

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u/Lulzorr Aug 11 '21 edited Aug 11 '21

I'm sorry but you appear to have not read what I wrote.

When you buy D8, you just have to trust the vendor who has no legal compunction to verify what they sell.

Trust isn't a factor: testing exists and should be the first thing anyone looks for when purchasing D8, and it is readily available from any serious company. I listed two in my comment who provide full panel testing that you can verify with the facilities who tested the product yourself. Or you can always spend a couple bucks and get it tested yourself, it's not very difficult. If you want a list of reputable vendors you should check the subreddit, which I will not link.

At least legal cannabis concentrates require testing.

Just because it's not a legal requirement does not mean that testing doesn't exist. It does, and ten seconds on any well known delta8 vendor would show you that.

D8 products are manufactured to make the overabundance of CBD hemp into something more profitable.

No one will dispute this, and I certainly didn't. Delta-8-THC is synthesized from CBD. The process is easily researched.

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u/FRIENDLY_RETARD Aug 11 '21

fake and boring yawn

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u/Lulzorr Aug 11 '21

Insightful.

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u/Faxme123 Aug 12 '21

I disagree

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u/eichornchenchen Aug 12 '21

The only states that haven banned delta 8 are those where delta 9 is legal.

I went to a CBD expo and talked to some old school growers who said they would grow hemp and extract the delta 8 and sell it as regular delta 9.

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u/desantoos Aug 11 '21

The answer to your question is yes. Source.

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u/DatCoolBreeze Aug 11 '21

States where cannabis is legal are the reason d8 is being demonized.

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u/RareMajority Aug 11 '21

Is this recommendation for edible products as well?

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u/redditjam645 Aug 11 '21

So I have a case of Koi brand Delta-8 edibles (gummies). I take them twice a week to relax. So far it's been giving me a similar high to regular THC edibles and haven't had any ill effects. Does anyone know if Koi is trust worthy? They had good reviews online and seem reputable. This post is making me kinda paranoid lol. I'm not the biggest health nut but definitely don't want to develop some sort of chronic complications because I took some delta 8 edibles.

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u/grozly2009 Aug 11 '21

Don't know anything about Koi but heard good things about 3chi which is what I use for edibles. Check maybe on r/delta8

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u/Sharkhottub Aug 11 '21

Koi is a reputable brand and well known to follow all regulatory requirements.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

remember, everyone, especially the OP, has an agenda. if they're making you feel paranoid, you should question their motivation.

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u/azsnaz Aug 11 '21

We're supposed to have agendas?

2

u/Pickled_Enthusiasm Aug 11 '21

Just what someone with an agenda would say...

1

u/RockHickenbottom Aug 11 '21

…what is the agenda behind saying this?

1

u/lafayette0508 Aug 11 '21

or question how much pot you've had, if you're starting to feel paranoid

1

u/Poo_Panther Aug 12 '21

Owlsoil. - the owner takes safety very seriously and has YouTube blogs walking through everything from what is delta 8, how they make it to, what testing is what the results are etc. very insightful and comforting

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u/wordswiththeletterB Aug 11 '21

I bought some delta 8 weed and smoked it over the weekend. Was horrible tasting and smelling. The point about manufacturing makes perfect sense to me now.

weirdly enough they have me a liquid edible as a 'sample' and it was awesome. They also gave me one free gummy edible and I had that and it stunk, no effects.

I am def sticking to my normal product.

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u/ITaggie Aug 11 '21

d8 bud is literally the least pure and riskiest form of d8.

d8 doesn't occur naturally in high enough concentrations to just smoke the flower right off the plant, they have to extract it and then they take regular CBD bud and spray d8 on it-- increasing the risk for stuff like mold.

If you are going to do d8, I'd mainly suggest sticking with edibles as they're the least sketchy option IMO.

2

u/-RedXV- Aug 11 '21

I vape my flower and recently went to a "reputable" cbd/d8 shop here in Chicago. Bought 2 grams of d8 flower to try out in my vape rig. I had the exact opposite experience as the guy you replied to. That shit tasted amazing and left me with a nice relaxing high and I slept like a baby. I have yet to buy more because of the things I've been reading though.

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u/wordswiththeletterB Aug 11 '21

Thanks! I am def just sticking to my normal weed edibles and skipping the D8.

Not worth it since I have a medical card. was just somewhere that was selling and I happened to have some walking around money. lesson learned.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

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u/Mvpeh Aug 11 '21

https://dailycbd.com/en/how-to-make-delta-8-thc/#:~:text=This%20process%20for%20CBD%20isomerization,and%202%25%20delta%208%20THC

Here is a decent protocol listing the isomerization process of CBD to delta 8 THC. It's actually not terribly complicated.

Key aspects of the process are ensuring solvents fully purge through some variation of mass spectroscopy and several washes.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

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u/0NTH3SLY Aug 11 '21

You can buy flower but I think it’s just been sprayed with d8.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

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u/DatCoolBreeze Aug 11 '21

I have some d8 flower and it most certainly is sprayed. Haven’t had the desire to smoke it but the edibles definitely do the trick if you’re in a state where cannabis isn’t legalized. You can get edibles that are infused rather than sprayed.

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u/DrGreenMeme Aug 11 '21 edited Aug 12 '21

Many Delta-8 companies (good ones anyways) provide lab testing results on their websites. This should be enough to determine which products are safe or not, but I would prefer to see it handled like any other food or drink by the FDA. Edit - Apparently many sites don't test for reagents and could theoretically be faking these lab results, etc. Best to wait for FDA regulation or stick with normal delta-9.

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u/ITaggie Aug 11 '21

Any many d8 companies have also been caught posting false test results on their websites and paying spammers to dispute/wipe any criticism of their products from popular forums, notably 3chi.

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u/DrGreenMeme Aug 11 '21

Oh wow I didn't know this. Do you have any links ab it?

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u/ITaggie Aug 11 '21

1

u/DrGreenMeme Aug 11 '21

From what I can see, a lab detected more Delta-9 than what is legal (in most states), but I haven't seen any harmful chemical results. They maybe have some shitty behavior online, but I can't seem to find anything pointing to their official products being harmful. Am I wrong on that?

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u/ITaggie Aug 12 '21

Did you miss the second half that says "a large number of unidentified chems"?

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u/kwegner Aug 11 '21

Some sellers provide independent analysis of their Delta-8 products. Do you trust results similar to what Pure Kana provides? Is this type of analysis enough to feel safe as a consumer?

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u/perfecto_falcon Aug 11 '21

same can be said about the extraction processes of many cannabinoids, especially when you get to the isolates of CBN and CBG etc, but even with cannabidiol-1 i.e 'CBD'.

and you should (and probably do) know this OP lolrip, gotta love scientists doing marketing ;(

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u/uneducatedexpert Aug 11 '21

Agreed.

I work in cannabis and hemp, we’ve processed 5million lbs of hemp this year and straight up refuse to make ∆⁸, at any price. We would rather work with the regulators, get our research licenses and do it the slow, correct way.

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u/Outrageous-Trick8588 Aug 11 '21

But it's the best thing some of us have.

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u/DukSoup Aug 11 '21

Thank you! My local smoke shop been trying hard for me to buy this crap and when I did the cough I got from it was so not normal.

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u/grandtheftbonsai Aug 11 '21

A week ago my wife took Delta 8 for the first time, and it landed her in the ER. She felt disoriented to a point of a panic attack and felt like she was going to die. CAT scan, ECHO cardiogram, blood work all came back normal. It has taken until today for her to feel back to normal. It was super scary. We now think that this gummy is to blame. Any thoughts on that?

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u/BBBBrendan182 Aug 11 '21

Sounds like your typical case of an inexperienced marijuana user taking too much of an edible.

Delta 8 isn’t as psychoactive as Delta 9, but it’s still psychoactive. She probably had a panic attack from being too high. It’s very common.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

[deleted]

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u/deekaydubya Aug 11 '21

yes, since it's being treated as 'weed-lite' many underestimate it

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u/DatCoolBreeze Aug 11 '21

Lol d9 edibles have the same effect on many people. Edibles are intense.

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u/TuPacMan Aug 11 '21

Sounds like a bad psychological reaction. Happens with normal edibles too.

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u/NNTPgrip Aug 11 '21

Every time anyone at a shop selling edibles advises anything, it's always take less, you can always take more later - you can't untake it.

The girl at the delta-8 shop that sprung up around here told me you want to get the bigger sized gummy at the same mg dose, I asked "why?", she said, it's easier to cut in half or in quarters. Then she said to definitely start with a quarter and wait to take another quarter until like an hour and a half later to see how you feel, then ride it out and don't be tempted to take any more. Then you can figure out what you want to do next time right up front.

I watched a friend in Amsterdam finish a whole edible muffin just because it tasted good - he was pretty jacked up later and stayed at the hotel out of his mind while we all went to the red light district. What made it worse for him was that we were 3/4 into the trip and right before the pot edible kicked in he was reviewing the pictures he had taken and his SD card went corrupt so he obsessed about loosing all the pictures and it ruined his night. We woke up early before everyone the next morning and walked the city to retake all the stuff he could remember. He did save the money all the rest of us spent on hookers.

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u/Drewbus Aug 11 '21

I read something showing manufacture from just using acetic acid AKA vinegar. What harsh chemicals are you referring to?

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u/bananadangle Aug 11 '21

Does the same go for Delta 10?

1

u/Metalhed69 Aug 11 '21

Is CO2 extraction safe?

1

u/scapo9688 Aug 11 '21

What are some of the “harsh” chemicals used in the conversion of cbd to delta-8 thc?

1

u/elementaltheboi Aug 11 '21

I've completely switched to delta 8 because in nj we can't get legal weed another way yet. Kinda sketched now after reading this. I've been only buying from a brand call koi because they seem to be reputable and made cbd products before this but now I'm doubting it.

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u/Rannepear Aug 11 '21

The chemicals/solvents aren't typically things found on a full panel test then? I'd say consumers of cannabis actually have a lot more transparency than other products given how CoAs are treated in this industry - though D8 is definitely a wild west product right now.

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u/funyordietryin Aug 11 '21

Really wish I had of done more research on delta-8. I tried a gummy a week ago and ended up having a anxiety attack, which also led to having insomnia for 8 days in counting.

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u/DJnotaRealDJ Aug 11 '21

Ive been seeing so much about this on tiktok and now know to stay away. Sounds just as bad as fake weed

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u/Jeefster83 Aug 11 '21

Is there naturally occurring Delta 8?

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u/pissboy Aug 11 '21

I’m a Canadian cannabis consumer. Wtf is delta 8? We just have THC

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u/Busterlimes Aug 12 '21

You can also make D8 by heating up your solution too high/long when carbon scrubbing prior to distillation. We made some 39%D8 42%D9 distillate once. Personally I really liked the combination, really strong sedative effect rather than the uplift I generally get from pure D9. Granted my experience is my own, so who knows what the chemistry is actually doing.

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u/TOKiY0 Aug 12 '21

Harsh chemicals? CBD can be converted into d9/d8 via acid catalysed cyclisation. This can be done by refluxing CBD in citric acid, not too harsh at all.

Extract with a food-safe solvent (d-limonene comes to mind), then allow to evaporate or freeze precip.

That's about it, all of the chemicals used are found in oranges... apart from the citric acid being concentrated, it's about as non-harsh as can be :)

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u/069988244 Aug 12 '21

It’s also synthesized directly from a precursor called olivetol and a terpine. A lot of the shitty delta 8 on the market has been shown to contain high levels of unreacted olivetol.

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u/ben876 Aug 12 '21

My recommendation is to not use delta 8 because it sucks. Unless you enjoy being kinda almost a little high for about 45 seconds and then disappointed for about 45 minutes. To be clear, I'm specifically talking about flower. Edibles and carts weren't as horrible but you're still better off buying real weed from that one guy who told you his name was Sage even though your friend who gave you his number said his name is Mario.

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u/Wargician Aug 11 '21

Very curious on this one, its nice to have a legal alternative, but spice was a thing when i was in HS and people died from that. Knowing Delta 8 is safe and legal would be a game changer

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u/sturmblast Aug 11 '21

Spice was also purely synthetic garbage

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/sturmblast Aug 11 '21

lol or ya know, legalize weed. :D

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u/Jim_Nightshade Aug 11 '21

While I agree with you, the synthetics can be stronger than THC. At least the first few generations were full agonists as opposed to THC which is a partial CB1 agonist. I know on message boards back then some people preferred synthetics, especially one called AM-2201. A couple hits and you’d be basically nodding out and then 30 min later be sober and REALLY want more now. Like the crack of cannabinoids. Really weird stuff.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

I bought an ounce of 99% pure AM-2201 once. My exes dad saw my package and freebased some of the the powder. I came home and he was flopping on my newly broken living room table, and all he could say was "DONT..... SMOKE...... THE POWDERRRRRRR"

I made probably 40 ounces of my own spice out of it, but my tolerance got to the point where I had a saltshaker with some powder in it, and I'd sprinkle it on bowls before I'd smoke em.

Man... That was like 13 years ago lol. I'm a significantly different person now.

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u/lpisme Aug 11 '21

I called it the weed equivalent to crack because it had that kind of draw, for me at least. I didn't consume it beyond the JWH round and I would agree that it wasn't terrible (but man, it's not weed).

When I did, it was short -- about 30 minutes -- and the compulsion to redose was insanely highly. Because it really did take you back to this sense of baseline and left you wanting to keep going back, all the while building tolerance.

It was an interesting place and time in research chemicals for a whole slew of things to be honest. I'm not sure what that market looks like nowadays but a decade ago there was all kinds of things.

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u/blak3brd Aug 11 '21

MXE changed my life and I dream of one day experiencing it again. Ketamine has caused a host of health issues in a dramatically shorter time span of use (I had never tried it prior to MXE disappearing) and not to mention the financial aspect that I never even came close to experiencing with years of very frequent MXE usage.

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u/sturmblast Aug 11 '21

Yeah, but I'd rather have regular bud as a long time smoker.

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u/Jim_Nightshade Aug 11 '21

Yeah me too. Well, I actually prefer some nice clean crumble or butter but still natural thc. Just saying there is a demand for these products and some people even prefer them. It would be better if they never hit the market in the first place which was obviously due to criminalization.

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u/sturmblast Aug 11 '21

Yeah I mean, I've certainly dabbled in all varieties of things, but the concentrates just aren't want I want typically.

I have a bunch of buddies that only vape concentrates, which is fine if you want your tolerance that high all the time.. but that 's a pricey habit imo.

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u/alwaysintheway Aug 11 '21

What is crumble?

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u/Jim_Nightshade Aug 11 '21

A high thc extract, like shatter or budder but it has a crumbly texture.

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u/Kajimishima2 Aug 12 '21

And the story goes on, even to this very day.

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u/mightymousethechomo Nov 22 '21

jwh-018 was sedative and zero anxiety it was better than weed. sue me

jwh-073 for the more heady high

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u/Wrangleraddict Aug 12 '21

Oh man I remember buying some of the JWH-018 back in 08-09ish.

White powder that looked like Coke, but a few little 'grains' of that shit would send you to the moon

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u/Bozigg Aug 11 '21

Someone laced my bowl with spice at a party I went to in my early 20's, and it really really fucking sucked. I would never have tried it otherwise, and tired to strongly discourage others from using it. I didn't feel real for the whole night, and for days after, I felt like I was just robotically going through my life.

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u/JustBigChillin Aug 11 '21

I had the same thing happen. I was in college and my friend had a pipe laying around. He offered me some and didn’t tell me it was spice until after I hit it (I wouldn’t have otherwise). That shit was the most anxiety inducing high I’ve ever felt in my life. I was pretty pissed at my friend for waiting to tell me.

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u/Bozigg Aug 11 '21

I hate even thinking about it. I even asked the guy if it was weed, and he smirked at me and said yes. I packed a little bit of my own weed on top, and roasted the whole thing. Immediately knew it wasn't just weed. In hindsight, I should have known since the guy was acting like a total tweaker before hand. I'm sorry you had a similar experience.

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u/Various-Departure679 Aug 11 '21

The stuff is terrible. I probably did it about a dozen times and hated it every time. I have some friends that still do the shit tho. It would give me insane anxiety, at one point I remember fearing that I was about to murder myself and wouldn't be able to stop myself, like psycho shit. My buddies smoke it and nod out like it's nothing. Idk I'm older now and slightly wiser so won't be giving it "one more chance" lol

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u/Bozigg Aug 11 '21

In my area, a lot of military people would smoke it when they were on leave because it didn't come up in a drug test or something like that. I feel you on the psycho shit. The guy that had the spice would only refer to himself as "king mike", and would try and tough guy you if you didn't refer to him as such. Pretty sure he had some underlining mental illness, but the spice sure didn't help. If I remember correctly, he got kicked out of the party a few hours after the incident because everyone was sick of his shit.

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u/Orkys Aug 12 '21

Synthetic is irrelevant. What the chemical does in the body is all that matters. Worrying about if something is natural is distracting to genuine science and harm prevention.

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u/SuperBrentendo64 Aug 11 '21 edited Aug 11 '21

Delta 8 is synthetic right now too, probably being made by people that don't really know what they're doing, just like spice.

I do think that the chemicals being synthesized in spice are significantly more dangerous than Delta 8 ever could be. It's the byproducts of the synthesis that I am worried about.

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u/0NTH3SLY Aug 11 '21

It’s sort of disingenuous to compare the two. Spice is a bunch of random lab chemicals. D8 is created by processing cbd.

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u/SuperBrentendo64 Aug 11 '21

When you say process, you mean there are chemical reactions performed to turn it into Delta 8. There are various ways to do it, but most of the time involve transition metals and acids to make it happen.

It's not just processing like when they get cbd out of a plant. It involves actual chemistry, that is not being performed by qualified chemists. And also not going through thorough testing to ensure it is safe.

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u/Beakersoverflowing Aug 11 '21

The stuff I tested ALWAYS had significant amounts of d9 THC in it, multiple unidentified peaks with individual peak areas over 10 %, and baselines absolutely loaded with clutter. What I would call exceptionally dirty. But we passed all of it because the rules aren't made to protect consumers. No reportable pesticides=no problem. Doesn't matter if HPLC shows massive contamination, we had no channel through which to report it.

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u/SuperBrentendo64 Aug 11 '21

Exactly. These reactions aren't being run by trained chemists. That many side products in a reaction is absurd, especially one as simple as that one. When I say simple, I mean it is two steps and straightforward on paper, but technically could be very difficult to perform properly. On a bad day I might have 4 or 5 byproducts, but I would never consider leaving them in there for my next reaction, let alone sell it to someone to smoke/eat.

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u/andthenhesaidrectum Aug 11 '21

"random lab chemicals"

"processing"

unless you really can fill in those blanks, you are talking out of your ass to a disturbing degree. What "random lab chemicals" are involved in "processing"...

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u/Drewbus Aug 11 '21

...with vinegar

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u/SuperBrentendo64 Aug 11 '21

It's not nearly that simple.

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u/Drewbus Aug 11 '21

I figured. So what "harsh chemicals" is he referring to?

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u/Beakersoverflowing Aug 11 '21

Most people I've met admit to using an inorganic acid with a weak base (typically a nitrogenous heterocycle).

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u/Drewbus Aug 11 '21

Do any of these have names for the non-muggle?

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u/Trends_ Aug 11 '21

any chemical that strips away the byproducts you dont want, i know for example isopropyl alcohol is used in some cases in extracting thc wax for the different products you can get, I think the moral of the story here is that its scary for it being unregulated, the cannabanoid itself isn't what's harmful or concerning, it's what COULD be in with the product. Also K2 was absolutely fully synthetic. Normal cannabanoids are half-agonists and k2 was full-agonist which mean with marijuana you don't even get the full potency of thc, k2 is 3000x times stronger and you get the whole effect which is a lot of why it reacts so extremely

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u/Drewbus Aug 11 '21

Right but it's not hard to label the substances that you'd be putting in your body

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u/SuperBrentendo64 Aug 11 '21

Corrosive acids at a minimum if you're not interested in controlling which Delta you make. Just acids you'll end up with lost of isomers, including mostly Delta 9 which kindof makes the legality argument invalid.

If you're going to control the regiochemistry, you need to involve transition metal catalysts and associated ligands/solvents which range from not that bad to super toxic.

Check out the CE&N article on Delta 8 from about a month ago. They go into pretty good detail on it

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u/Drewbus Aug 11 '21

Found the recipe. Thank you!

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u/drunkdog Aug 11 '21

Yea you had to dilute the shit out to spray on the flower

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u/ClassicHat Aug 11 '21

random lab chemicals

Calling THC analogues "random" is pretty disingenuous in it's own way even if they were synthesized

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u/Barton-McCombie Aug 11 '21

The term "synthetic cannabinoid" is a misnomer.

Generally it is used to refer to a large class of new psychoactive substances called synthetic cannabinoid receptor agonists (SCRAs). SCRAs are markedly structurally different from phytocannabinoids (the "plant cannabinoids" such as delta-8, delta-9, CBD, THCV, CBG etc...), and are much more potent and efficacious than phytos. SCRAs on the market today hit much harder at a lower dose, and have implicated in a host of mass casualties over the past decade. Honestly I would be more worried about the SCRA itself/ and dose taken, rather than manufacturing impurities. These SCRAs have historically been mostly manufactured by contract research organisations and sold before they were under any sort of legislative control. They are then dissolved in solvent by distributors, sprayed onto plant matter after which the solvent evaporates, leaving you with your spice product.

Synthetic or plant-based origin of delta-8, delta-9 or CBD will not affect the pharmacological profile of the molecules themselves, IF formulation and purity is identical. After all, a molecule is just a molecule; the origin of said molecule does not effect its structure in the now. If the structures are different, you have a different drug. Differences in formulation/ composition of a product is a different kettle of fish entirely.

Happy to answer questions about SCRAs, and here are some references if you want to learn more:

‘Synthetic cannabis’: A dangerous misnomer https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0955395921003017

“Zombie” Outbreak Caused by the Synthetic Cannabinoid AMB-FUBINACA in New York https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa1610300

The Chemistry and Pharmacology of Synthetic Cannabinoid Receptor Agonists as New Psychoactive Substances: Origins https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/164_2018_143

The Chemistry and Pharmacology of Synthetic Cannabinoid Receptor Agonist New Psychoactive Substances: Evolution https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/164_2018_144

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u/SuperBrentendo64 Aug 11 '21

I said the byproducts from the reaction are what I am concerned with. Not the chemical itself.

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u/DrGreenMeme Aug 11 '21 edited Aug 12 '21

Spice was entirely synthetic. Good Delta-8 companies will list lab testing results on their website, confirming their products are actually delta-8 and don't contain any harmful chemicals or pesiticides. Edit - Apparently many sites don't test for reagents and could theoretically be faking these lab results, etc. Best to wait for FDA regulation or stick with normal delta-9.

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u/Thompson_S_Sweetback Aug 11 '21

My FIL had a stroke after smoking spice, about five years ago. I remember reading individual articles about people suffering strokes from smoking synthetics. Is there any research about what could cause this?

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u/flickerkuu Aug 11 '21

People died? Source? I saw freak outs but never someone dying from smoking.

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u/OpalHawk Aug 11 '21

A lot of people had seizures after smoking it. I saw a person have one personally, so I wouldn’t be shocked if some people died. No source because you can google it yourself if you want to and I’m on my phone.

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u/erehin Aug 12 '21

I'm an analytical chemist in the industry and I strongly suspect that most delta 8 is fraudulent/artifacts of poorly developed analytical methods. Some synthetic chemists might be producing it but I think most of it is CBD or even genuine delta9 with RT drift. Even if the lab is ISO certified, that's just a song and dance with paperwork but the manufacturers basically bully the third party labs into giving them the result they want. And after 5 replicates if the delta 9 drifts out of the specified RT window (usually 0.1 min) , the manufacturer will take the vindication and run. And if it's an internal lab then they have even more control over the documentation. Maybe some synthetic materials are genuine but OP is right about those. Although I would add that you can expect for even naturally derived CBD to have had hexane or pentane exposure during crystallization and don't trust that those have been 100% vapped either.

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u/bush_killed_epstein Aug 11 '21

I’d listen to the chemists on this one: https://cen.acs.org/biological-chemistry/natural-products/Delta-8-THC-craze-concerns-chemists/99/i31

Look at the chromatographs for any delta 8 manufacturer. It doesn’t matter which one. They all have multiple mystery peaks or bumps that are not cannabinoids. You’d need a mass spectrometer to analyze the 100s of residual compounds in these products.

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u/slim_scsi Aug 11 '21

Upvote for same question.

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u/davmar96 Aug 11 '21

Just a brief reminder that OP is NOT a medical doctor, and no matter what their eventual answer is/is not, I would consult one/ research conducted about Delta 8. OP seems to me to have a background in the science and genetics of cannabis, but not the health impacts of those genetics on the human body. Please correct me if I am wrong OP. Just to get you started with an overview article: https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/what-is-delta-8. And a bit more conversation about the lack of regulation surrounding Delta-8: https://cen.acs.org/biological-chemistry/natural-products/Delta-8-THC-craze-concerns-chemists/99/i31

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u/PsychoLLamaSmacker Aug 11 '21

To be fair. Medical doctors are going to know far less than he would.

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u/Sharkhottub Aug 11 '21

I am a Cannabis Scientist Turned Cannabis Regulator and I can tell you with certainty he will not. His expertise doesn't extend much beyond CBD analysis, let alone other cannabinoids in more difficult matrices.

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u/PsychoLLamaSmacker Aug 11 '21

He will know more than you average physician, perhaps his credentials aren’t meaningful in the cannabis world, but you’d be surprised at the lack of even basic cannabis knowledge by your average physician

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u/[deleted] Aug 12 '21

What are your thoughts on D8?

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u/Sharkhottub Aug 12 '21

We've been able to quantify it with great success across multiple matrices, I see no issues buying D8 if it comes from a reputable sources and comes with a certificate of analysis from an ISO certified laboratory. It can and has met all the safety requirements of other regulated cannabinoids given the right source. Mind you I'm not a doctor so I dont pretend to make any suggestions to consume or not consume any cannabinoids.

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u/GrizzlyBanks Aug 11 '21

Why are people down voting this so much? Is it because it rains on the delta 8 parade?

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u/davmar96 Aug 11 '21

Heck if I know. OP basically brought up the same concerns I did, which was a lack of regulatory oversight and the fact much less research (medical or chemical) has been done on Delta 8 compared to Delta 9 (THC). Furthermore, because Delta 8 is a canaboid that appears in marijuana in trace amounts at most, even cannabis researchers like OP are unlikely to have any substantial experience with it. Again, correct me if I am wrong OP. I am not a cannabis researcher.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

[deleted]

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u/In-the-background Aug 11 '21

Been wondering the same thing.

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u/createsstuff Aug 12 '21

Thank you for asking this!!!!

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u/kayymarie-97 Aug 12 '21

delta-8 caused my vision to go black, my heart to race, my body to shake, and i was unable to keep myself upright for longer than a few seconds. i smoke regular marijuana daily and have never had an experience even close to what happened with delta-8. one of the very, very few times i thought i was actually dying. i wouldn’t try that stuff again if someone paid me.

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u/Professional_Sort767 Aug 12 '21

Man, that's wild. I've used it dozens of times now, and know multiple people who use it regularly, and other than some anxiety, no one has had any issue with it. Cheers!

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