Should there be reparations for slavery and other historical instances of injustice and oppression?

[u/GalahadDrei]

In the past few years, it seems that calls for reparations for slavery in the United States have intensified amidst the protests against police brutality and systemic racism. These calls most often demand material and financial compensations for the descendants of slaves and are sometimes made alongside calls for reparations for racism and discrimination. Unsurprisingly, the idea of reparations remains highly controversial, due to questions of how they would be given, how much would be given, who would pay/receive them, and most importantly whether or not there should be one at all.

Slavery in the US is not the only instance of injustice that has received calls for reparations. Here are other historical events for which calls for reparations have been made:

• Caribbean countries have demanded reparations for the Atlantic slave trade and slavery from European countries involved.

• The Armenian diaspora and controversial human rights scholar Alfred de Zayas have demanded that Turkey pay reparations in various forms to the Armenian people for the Armenian genocide.

• Indian politician Shashi Tharoor have argued that the United Kingdom owes reparations to all its former colonies for British Raj, colonialism, and slavery.

• Namibia demands trillion dollars in reparations from Germany for the genocide committed there after rejecting $1.34 billion in development aids

• UN human rights chief and former president of Chile Michelle Bachelet called for reparations to be paid to people of African descent for racism against them in general

Should there be reparations for slavery and other historical instances of injustice and oppression? If so, where in history should they stop? Should reparations be demanded for the actions of the Romans, the Mongols, and the Vikings as well?

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[u/TheMikeyMac13]

I am the kin of Irish immigrants on both sides of my family, we came to the USA about a hundred years ago as indentured servants. We never kept slaves or suffered any to be kept.

My wife is black, and her family are the direct kin of slaves in the USA.

We have two kids, and we aren’t poor, kind of middle class.

Do we pay or are we paid?

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/TheMikeyMac13]

You are not paying anything specifically. The reparations would come from the government. It wouldn't make sense to have people who were just born into having money-- to pay people who had slave ancestors.

Organizing people into who would even pay taxes into it is just too much. The United States allowed it-- the United States as an entity understands that it was wrong-- sooo it would stand that the United States would pay reparations.

The taxes and whatnot that were made from slave labor could probably be calculated -- that money or part of that money should probably go to the families that had ancestors who were forced into labor that otherwise could have been converted into some generational wealth.

Also there are other means of reparations that could be given in lieu of money-- IE education-- Government assistance in attaining a home-- free car registrations --- the list can go on and on in how they could receive reparations.

[u/tom_the_tanker → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

I think you're dodging the question. Do mixed (that is, the combination of non-persecuted/persecuted supposed racial groups) receive money? If so, how much? Half? Are we going to start doing color tests on people to determine how much reparations they get?

By "supposed" racial groups, I of course mean that "race" as a category is a creation, a construct, ultimately a category that is in the eye of the beholder. It is a frame forced on people by a dominant group. So then that begs the question - at what point does someone LEAVE that group and become part of THIS group? Is a person who is a quarter Black (like myself) but white passing still eligible for reparations? Is a person an eighth black? A sixteenth? Are we going to start chasing genealogies to determine who is entitled to what?

This is ultimately the problem with any race-based economics policy, or even ancestry-based. Records from the 19th Century are not always good, let alone accurate. We would have people trying to prove their ancestry in order to qualify for payments from the government. And when you think that through to its logical conclusion, that is vile.

I'm not a big fan of the "pointing out racism creates racism!" rhetoric that Republicans like to spread, but I see no way in which an ancestry-based reparations scheme would not be an utter disaster for race relations in this country. Any benefits in the short run would be wiped out in the long run through the damage it would do to American society.

The best way to atone for the sins of the past is to strive for equality now, in loans, in home ownership, in employment and opportunity. Eliminate race-based policing and urban violence. Integrate racial groups into the American community. But Jesus Christ, don't get people analyzing genomes for how much money they can get out of them. That can only make things worse.

[u/Telkk2 → u/tom_the_tanker]

We don't deserve you...

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/tom_the_tanker]

Okay-- to put plainly.

Did you have family members in the past that were legally enslaved under the United States of America? Yes? Then we as the United States owe you reparations for lost generational wealth as well as an actionable acknowledgment to say we fucked up.

Pretty simple. it also removes race from the equations. So that should help you a bit.

As far as how much-- or how little-- whatever-- we can take a book from Germany...As they pay reparations to Holocaust survivors. -- Now-- Let's say Germany never got around to paying those reparations to current holocaust survivors-- as it stands Germany would be morally obligated to give the next of kin reparations from, in this example, 1950 until they passed. -- the same way if some company killed your mother-- you would be able to sue that company and collect reparations.

But-- we can define it a bit better for ourselves. Former slave owners had the opportunity to pass down generational wealth to their children... that wealth allowed them more opportunities in work, in education, etc etc.

So-- It would stand to reason that we, as the united states, should afford those who had family members that were legally enslaved in the united states, those same opportunities. -- We kinda did that with Affirmative action, but there is still a lot of push back against it.

I am not dodging a question-- you are kinda viewing it in some arbitrary way. To put it another way-- If there is a person who had family members legally enslaved at one point-- and today they were wealthy, had a great job, could afford whatever they really wanted-- they would still be owed reparations.

[u/a34fsdb → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

How do you prove you had slave ancestors?

[u/Prodigy195 → u/a34fsdb]

I'm always confused why slavery is treated as the jumping on point. We have a more recent (Jim Crow, racial segregation, redlining) injustice that we're more accurately able to measure the economic impact of.

It seems like whever the discussion of reparations for black Americans come up people like to get get bogged down in the weeds of "how are we going to determine who deserves payment" and treat that as a jumping off point.

When in my mind the first question should be *"Do you feel that black Americans are deserving of some sort of economic repayment for the lost and potentially lost wages/wealthy due to slavery, Jim Crow and racial segregation in the history of Ameirca (ignoring eligibility issues).

I think people shift the discussion to the "who" because a lot of people disagree with reparations but don't want to outwardly say they disagree out of fear of being called racist. Because the reality is, the overwhelming majority of people truly agreed then we'd figure out a system to get it done and could deal with the fringe/margin cases on a individual basis.

[u/eldomtom2 → u/Prodigy195]

then we'd figure out a system to get it done and could deal with the fringe/margin cases on a individual basis.

That's a nice way to deal with arguments. Just say they'll get sorted out, no need to worry with any details!

[u/Prodigy195 → u/eldomtom2]

It's not about dealing with arguments. It's seeing what the actual argument is. If people don't even agree if there should be reparations then arguing about how they'll be distributed is a waste of time. First we need to all (or mostly) agree that reparations should be a thing

[u/Telkk2 → u/Prodigy195]

Lol lost wages, yeah no. Sorry but if you're seriously going to clump people together like this your argument becomes invalid.

[u/jcspacer52 → u/Prodigy195]

So let’s for the sake of argument assume we can determine with high confidence who was a descendant of slaves and we determine what amount of money is due. Once we pay that money out, will we then be able to outlaw affirmative action, college admissions set asides, gerrymandered districts to insure a minority wins the seat, minority contacts set asides? Will the term “systemic racism” be made illegal? Will people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Maxine Waters finally shut up?

Because if you can guarantee those thing happens, I might just be willing to part with a few bucks.

Should we include the 600-700k Union soldiers who died on Civil War battlefields? If not why not?

What mechanism will you use to help exempt someone like me who immigrated to the US in 1968 and has no ties to slavery?

I’m not black but a POC (Hispanic) I get a pass right?

What do you do with blacks who owned slaves? I admit the number is small but they did exist? Better yet if they were freed slaves who then owned slaves how do we process them?

[u/yibsyibs → u/Prodigy195]

I oppose because it would set half the country on fire. Now, I know people like Ibrahim Kendi, et al, would say "we set half the country on fire to end slavery." Did that I state that I am not willing to live through another civil war, and I'm willing to say outright I'm willing to let injustice fester rather than suffer that.

[u/Prodigy195 → u/yibsyibs]

Why would it set half the country on fire? And if it didn't cause this fire would you be in favor or still opposed.

[u/Telkk2 → u/Prodigy195]

Uh have you worked as a poor min wage worker in retail. That would destroy their relationships if the person working next to them is getting an extra 600-1k.

See most people who argue for reparations don't understand this let alone how much that money means to both poor whites and blacks.

Do you have any idea how many poor whites exist in America? Way more than blacks. That would spark such huge levels of resentment most directed at black people instead of college educated white elites who make stupid policies like this.

For christ sake, can we all just get on board with ubi and end the dumb race debates?

[u/Prodigy195 → u/Telkk2]

Uh have you worked as a poor min wage worker in retail.

Yep. Made $6.55/hour before the min wage federally was $7.25. That was 07/08 when I was in college. This is a tangent but the fact that it's the same all these years later is a joke.

Do you have any idea how many poor whites exist in America? Way more than blacks.

Correct. There are way more white people in America so that is just how percentages work. Even if the percentage of white poverty is lower the raw number of people will be higher just. None of that is relevant to the issue. White people being poor doesn't change the issue of reparations.

That would spark such huge levels of resentment most directed at black people instead of college educated white elites who make stupid policies like this.

I honestly mean this in the least snarky way possible and I'm not being sarcastic. So what? The goal of reparations is the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged.

This goes back to my original question that nobody who has replied to me actually has addressed or answered directly. Do you feel that black Americans are deserving of some sort of economic repayment for the lost and potentially lost wages/wealthy due to slavery, Jim Crow and racial segregation in the history of America.

If no, then the follow up questions are.

1) Why not?

2) How do you explain the disparity in economic status (on average, lower wealth, lower income, lower home ownership, higher debt) in black Americans. Because it's not just there magically.

What I tend to notice is that people who are anti reparations will generally agree that the history of the US led (at least partially) to the difference in economic outcomes but don't want to actually do anything to address that disparity.

[u/yibsyibs → u/Prodigy195]

Why would it set half the country on fire?

Look at the discourse around race today and imagine adding "oh, so we're going to give free money to 12% of the population, and were probably gonna either pump up the national debt or raise your taxes to do it." It wouldn't be pretty.

You want to talk purely about whether it's justified or not. I say it doesn't matter because much as you'd like to wish away the practicalities of it, you can't.

[u/Prodigy195 → u/yibsyibs]

The reason I want to discuss whether it’s justified is because I feel that a lot of people are dishonest in discussions around race/reparations and hide behind other issues.

Plainly put, I don’t think a lot of people are forthcoming about their true feelings with reparations.

People often say we talk about race too much in America. I think we don’t talk about it enough honestly because a lot of people lie publicly (to others and to themselves) about their true feelings.

I’ve had like 5-6 people rely to me and none of them with just say whether they think reparations are justified or not. It’s not a hard question yet people dance around it. And I think it’s because they feel that their true feelings don’t look good on paper.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/a34fsdb]

Don't know. But I am sure it's possible and verifiable. If we can send a person to the moon, I am sure we can figure out who was alive 150 years ago.

[u/NigroqueSimillima → u/a34fsdb]

A simple 23 and me test could confirm it.

[u/Graf_Orlock → u/NigroqueSimillima]

Origination point sure, but whether they were enslaved? Pretty sure that doesn't leave genetic markers.

[u/UnspecifiedHorror → u/NigroqueSimillima]

No it wouldn't because genetics aren't all the story.

Kamala Harris has black blood, but her family owned slaves.

[u/hallam81 → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

Given the historical records and how those records were kept, this would be impossible for many people. For most, the records just don't exist any longer due to fire and poor storage practices over time. The techniques of storing documents and record keeping didn't exist on the scale you may be expecting. There are really only good records for the ultra rich of the day and notable families that tracked genealogy within their own family records. For those historical records that do exist, there are still issues such as legibility, mistakes, outright fraud.

So you are essentially telling a large group of people who do have ties to slavery that they can't get reparations simply because record keeping issues.

[u/Nygmus → u/hallam81]

Sure, but when you look at it that way you're coming close to the point of just throwing up your hands and saying "this is hard so forget it."

Plus, there's an argument to be made that reparations are owed less specifically for slavery and more for the ensuing century and change during which black people, whether immigrants or descendants of slaves, were denied access to the means of generational wealth, often violently.

At some point, it's not that hard to argue that reparations are due not necessarily just for those descended from slaves but from anyone of black descent tracing back more than a couple of generations within the US.

[u/eldomtom2 → u/Nygmus]

Plus, there's an argument to be made that reparations are owed less specifically for slavery and more for the ensuing century and change during which black people, whether immigrants or descendants of slaves, were denied access to the means of generational wealth, often violently.

And the objections to that have already been mounted, and saying "well restrict it to actual descendants of slaves" was a defense.

[u/Telkk2 → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

I think if you worked minimum wage with all those black people you see on the news you wouldn't have this opinion.

Ubi is the way. Not reparations. Reparations would tear MY friends a part. Not yours.

[u/Own_General5736 → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

You are not paying anything specifically. The reparations would come from the government.

No, that is MY money. The government itself has no money, it has stewardship over a shared pool of money from the taxpayers that it is charged with spending for the benefit of the country. So yes, reparations IS taking money from me for events I have absolutely no tie to beyond melanin content.

[u/QuiGonMike → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

Your main fallacy is thinking that the money coming from the Govt somehow doesn’t come from us. It sure the hell Does. So, every pie in the sky, feel good thing you posted is simply taking money from one group of people and handing it to others via extremely suspect circumstances. Whey are we going "bill" current taxpayers that had nothing at all to do with any of this? It’s insane. Throughout history there have always been oppressed people and other bad things that happened. How far back we gonna go?

Just dump the entire idea and accept that it happened and it sucks but it’s over with. Its a horrible idea in every way possible. If a black family has legitimate evidence that a PRIVATE company has profited off their direct ancestors slave labor then sue them. That’s different. But trying to milk the taxpayers of the USA for this? No effing way.

[u/akmmaeng → u/[deleted]]

Nobody alive today owned or was a slave then. It would be close to completely arbitrary who got paid, and near impossible to prove one way or the other in many cases. The idea is frankly stupid, and won’t happen

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/[deleted]]

Not mad at all. Good ploy though.

If Grandpa gets hit by a UPS truck he sues UPS then. Duh? Hello? The judge certainly wouldnt award any monetary damage that came from the Federal Govt.

Can he sue them if he died? -- No-- the family would seek reparations. You are absolutely allowed to seek reparations on behalf of another person-- alive or not.

Further-- you can sue for damages from the government. The Federal Tort Claims Act was literally made for this.

You don't know what you are talking about.

None of us were around then.

Why does that matter? This is important to foundationally set up to support your argument. Just saying it doesn't mean anything.

its not going to happen anyways so you can wank off to the idea all day but its not happening.

Just because you think it isn't going to happen-- doesn't mean that, morally speaking, one shouldn't pursue it. The whole "give me liberty or give me death" bit is based on the concept that it isn't likely to get that liberty and if its not possible, kill me because fuck living any other way. -- They still pursued it because it is morally sound to do so.

Why dont they worry about the culture problems some of these people have instead?

Because that isn't what is being discussed-- if you want to discuss those other cultural problems-- we can. It would still leave this problem unanswered.

You know, value education, work hard, stay away from the gang-banging, etc?

Sure-- part of those reparations could be giving their descendants access to education, either for free or at an affordable reduced price.

[u/QuiGonMike → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

You're the one that dropped the "Go eff yourself", not me. Thats usually a sign of anger or severe frustration.

UPS is still a private company even if Grandpa dies. You go after THEM, not Mr and Mrs Taxpayer USA. Look, its clear you're all gung ho about this but not everyone is. Many are not and for very good reasons. Its Bull [email protected]#$. Just another left-wing, feel-good cash grab that just doesnt make any sense. Its just another attempt to punish the wrong people for deeds that were done a loooooooong time ago by someone else. Period.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/QuiGonMike]

I wasn't directing it at you, sorry for that confusion. it was towards that "hypothetical judge"

You go after THEM, not Mr and Mrs Taxpayer USA.

Yeah- you would go after them (the company)-- because they are the ones that facilitated and have a responsibility.

Just like the government, in this case, facilitated the legality of slavery and ultimately has a responsibility for doing so, esp after admitting that it is such a terrible thing.

Its just another attempt to punish the wrong people for deeds that were done a loooooooong time ago by someone else. Period.

You are not being punished-- the government is being punished-- or you could say they are righting a wrong. You being under that umbrella of the united states is just unfortunate.

Lets say for example, you sue that trucking company-- and it makes them go bankrupt and the business has to close down.

Your logic would imply that other truckers under that company who, lets say, are good drivers that they are being punished for that one trucker who killed a person. Which just isn't true-- the company had to take responsibility for what took place. -- the united states must also be held accountable for such things as well.

[u/jcspacer52 → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

Should we also pay “reparations” to the descendants of the 600,000 - 700,000 Unión soldiers who died on the battlefield? Can we calculate what each life is worth or just choose and arbitrary number?

By the way, the government has no money so if we are going to generate TAXES for reparations, do we make it a separate category so only descendants of those people who were here and may have profited from it at the time have to pay it? I immigrated in 1968 so I have no ties to slavery in the US do I get exempted from that tax, if not why not?

Edit: do descendants of the 600 - 700k Union dead also get exempted?

What do we do with black slave owners and theirs. It’s a small number but they existed.

[u/NardCarp → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

You are not paying anything specifically. The reparations would come from the government

When you take the money from me, and give it to someone else, it's me paying them

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/NardCarp]

You never really owned the taxes that you give to the government. Technically speaking the government is owed x percent of the money you make... That money was never yours.

[u/reaper527 → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

You are not paying anything specifically. The reparations would come from the government.

where exactly do you think the government's money comes from?

adding a middleman doesn't change who's footing the bill.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/reaper527]

That money isn't yours. Taxes belong to the government... Which is why you pay them. Technically the very instant you generate income, a percentage of that money belongs to the government. Isnt yours and it doesn't matter if you are the source of it.

I am sure tax money, just like everyone's tax money, goes to something they may not like. But that isnt up to you. It's up to society, and you can participate.in that society if you want to change how taxes are spent.

[u/yibsyibs → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

And in order to pay these reparations, the government would have to declare that even less of the money that you make actually belongs to you. That's called raising taxes. Raising taxes on everyone to benefit 12% of the population is a one-way ticket to oblivion the next November. That's why it's never going to happen.

[u/EnigmaCypher → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

So I should pay for something that I didn't do, to people who had nothing done to them?

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/EnigmaCypher]

No, you shouldn't -- The government should-- As I said-- that money, taxes, are not yours to specifically decide how it is spent.

That is up to society-- to which you can participate in.

[u/sheffieldandwaveland → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

Man, you must be pretty confident this would be a popular policy across the nation. Democrats would get blown the fuck out if they did/attempted this.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/sheffieldandwaveland]

I do not care if it would be popular or not. I also am not a democrat, I am a centrist. I have left and right leaning views-- but ultimately I have a moral foundation and a philosophical view that guides my actions and thoughts in what I believe is right and wrong.

I believe that if a wrong has been committed then there should be something to rectify that. If I won a million dollars, and the next day it was all stolen, I would want my children-- children's children-- to be beable to get that back from the person that took it away.

In this case-- the united states legally allowed people to be enslaved-- taking away bodily autonomy. The united states has since, and obviously, voiced that it was wrong-- it would stand to say that the government should offer reparations.

It would be like me smashing into your car, saying sorry and not offering you reparations -- because what are reparations? "the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged."

[u/movingtobay2019 → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

Wrong analogy. It would be like you smashing my car and my great great great grand kidis claiming damages 200 years later.

And get off your high horse. The US doesn't use your.morals as a foundation. We have moral foundations just not yours. So stop talking in a superior tone.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/movingtobay2019]

Let me reframe it because it seems you don't know what reparations are at a core level.

Let's say for example your great+++ grandfather owned a watch. His watch was stolen by a man. later in your life, you meet the great+++ grandson of the person that stole your great+++ grandfather's watch. You can prove that the watch is your grandfather's-- do you reasonably have a right to get that watch back?

[u/sheffieldandwaveland → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

No centrist believes in reparations. Call yourself what you want but that position is not tenable as a centrist. Its a far left woke position that most Americans either don’t care for or actively push against reparations.

No one alive suffered from slavery. Its pretty distasteful to tax all Americans for something that 99% had nothing to do with.

And no, your example is total dog shit. In your example its a present problem. 150 years makes a massive difference whether you admit it or not. No one alive actively suffered from slavery.

[u/EnigmaCypher → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

The government doesn't exist without taxpayers.

So, regardless of how many steps it takes, the end result is that I and everyone else are paying for it.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/EnigmaCypher]

Lol that isn't an argument. You pay for a lot of things that you probably don't believe in via taxes, and there are a lot of things that you pay for that you do.

The result is the same whether you believe it is coming out of your pocket or not.

It sounds like you have more of an issue with taxes than with the topic at hand.

[u/EnigmaCypher → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

Strawman.

You act as if people should accept your argument and then be OK with reparations (an asinine idea in the first place).

The government does not exist without taxpayers.

So, therefore, we are the ones who fund whatever they do.

[u/Terrannos → u/EnigmaCypher]

Association fallacy.

Just because the government would collapse with no tax revenue doesn't mean that the governments funds in any way belong to the taxpayers.

If I pay you $20 for a service I don't then get to tell you exactly how you need to spend that money.

[u/WhineyXiPoop → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

You mean we are not paying anything directly. Reparations are silly.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/WhineyXiPoop]

So if your mother died in an accident where someone else is at fault you wouldn't seek reparations for that because "reparations are silly"?

[u/WhineyXiPoop → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

Am I going after the person at fault or any and everyone as well as the person at fault? If the former, that is not silly, if the latter, that would be silly.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/WhineyXiPoop]

You wouldn't be going after the person driving the truck, no. You would be going after the company that truck driver worked for. Why? because that truck driver doesn't have the money to cover the value of a life-- and as something like that is considered a non-priority (things like Child support would be considered priority) he could claim bankruptcy and get out of it leaving you with nothing. -- Just like you would go after the company in this instance-- you would go after the government because they are the ones that supported the society to legally own a person. Just like the company put that truck driver in the position to drive the truck.

[u/WhineyXiPoop → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

There is still a nexus in your fault chain between me, my mom, and the truck driver and the business. 100 plus years later, not so much.

[u/CressFew3121 → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

But whether you ment to or not. You going after the Company still hurts the driver. And other drivers who had nothing do with it.

[u/Faux_Phototroph → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

Going off your final point, I think assisting ancestors of the enslaved in building intergenerational wealth through investments in property and other financial assets would have the most long-lasting impact, and would also be more palatable to conservatives than direct cash payments.

But “more palatable”, I’d argue, isn’t enough. Conservatives are waging a culture war against “critical race theory”. The idea of offering government assistance to racial minorities is off the table in a society that doesn’t even want to talk critically about race, and has been pushing over the past few political cycles to end similar affirmative action policies.

[u/Own_General5736 → u/Faux_Phototroph]

The idea of offering government assistance to racial minorities is off the table in a society that doesn’t even want to talk critically about race

It's also off the table in a society that has pretentions of being a place where the races are treated equally under the law. If people get special handouts literally due to their skin color then we do not have racial equality under the law.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/Faux_Phototroph]

palatable to conservatives

Man--- GFHEJHFRDJKA.

Lol... sorry. Speaking morally and philosophically. Uhh-- they would be mistaken in that it matters if it is "palatable".

I totally gather that it would be something that needs to pass in government. But-- Its hard for me to take them seriously when they are literally going against common sense most of the time.

The idea of offering government assistance to racial minorities is off the table in a society that doesn’t even want to talk critically about race,

Honestly-- While CRT is a thing-- I really don't think it matters in this context. I think what matters is "Did you have a family member that was legally enslaved in the United States? Yes? -- The government owes you reparations for lost generational wealth as well as an actionable acknowledgment to let you know we fucked up"

[u/Faux_Phototroph → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

Oh, I’m right there with you. I’m just constantly amazed by how off the fucking rails conservatives have gone. Just listening to people talk on the news about masking in schools, for example, literally amazes me that people can be so against common sense. I don’t know how it still amazes me after the last 4-5 years, but it does.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/Faux_Phototroph]

So-- fun story-- My mother, conservative, was telling me about the vaccine-- about how its killing people... and that is the government's plans. -- She talks about it often-- to the point where I showed her stats on the over all deaths caused by Covid-- and the deaths caused by the vaccine. Those numbers are so significantly different that its laughable to even come to that conclusion.

But I posed to her that "You would think the government would want compliant citizens... Do you really think the people taking the vaccine are the ones in trouble?"

her fucking face when I stood up and walked away.

[u/Faux_Phototroph → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

Lol love that. I bet she was pretty shook.

I’m actually a microbiologist/molecular biologist and have been making YouTube videos for my social media connections on virus biology and how the vaccines work, and it’s actually had a really great response from some of my family members with similar views. Glad I made them.

Probably far less effective for people who don’t know/trust me, though.

[u/QuiGonMike → u/Faux_Phototroph]

What’s common sense about reparations? It’s Govt sponsored theft from taxpayers to be given to people that never were or never will be slaves ever. You can think whatever you want of conservatives but you liberals are pretty off the rails too. Is there anything you DONT want the Govt to do for you?

[u/c0d3s1ing3r]

Perhaps we should help poor people in general as opposed to directed aid at an entire racial group.

This could be in the form of free community college, like Biden has proposed, as well as better cultural reeducation for Urban Communities.

[u/boojoowoo → u/c0d3s1ing3r]

Poor people not only get free community college, but net positive equity from fafsa. Source: was poor, came out with aa and several thousand dollars extra. Cc was about $4k a year and was given almost 13k pell grant aid.

[u/c0d3s1ing3r → u/boojoowoo]

Part of cultural reeducation for urban and poor people is being made aware of these programs, and being taught the mentality that they should be helping themselves.

Alternatively, we can make it more authoritarian program that directly tries to control these people and force them to better themselves, but I'm not quite sure how effective something like that would be

[u/boojoowoo → u/c0d3s1ing3r]

Can you elaborate on your second point. As far as your first point, yes. Why doesn’t Econ cover personal finance and economy which would cover how to get your college covered for free instead of trying to force kids to attend the most prestigious school they’re eligible for and take on massive debt? The fact you didn’t realize this was an option goes to show just how few do. Granted once in school fafsa is forced down you’re throat, you have to sign up for it even if ineligible to qualify for student loans at all, but I imagine many kids forego colleg entirely under the presumption they can’t afford it.

[u/c0d3s1ing3r → u/boojoowoo]

Why doesn’t Econ cover personal finance and economy which would cover how to get your college covered for free

Mine did, but I had a pretty great public School district. It also wasn't taught to us because it was quite likely that we would not qualify. I didn't get any Pell grant money because I didn't qualify for it, and FAFSA barely gave us anything.

College is also not the be-all end-all, business degrees are useless, so are psychology degrees, so are communications degrees. A two-year degree is a great way to stabilize someone's situation, so that way they can go for a four-year degree when they're more ready.

As an addenda, those degrees are largely useless unless you're going for further education in psychology (or HR), middle management at a company where you already have a guaranteed job (business), or transitioning to a sociology focus and then HR or research (Communications).

My second point refers to a theoretical program wherein such reparations are given as forced movement up the socioeconomic ladder by means of forceful improvement.

Myself and many others would not have a problem giving money to such a program, so long as it wasn't actually being wasted on commodities. Means test the shit out of it to make everyone happy, and turn out some good numbers showing that it produces culturally homogeneous upstanding American citizens that are economically productive.

Of course, we could always do ubi, because that's a real final solution to the welfare question

[u/Graf_Orlock → u/c0d3s1ing3r]

being taught the mentality that they should be helping themselves.

Careful, that sounds just a wee bit paternalistic.

[u/Own_General5736 → u/c0d3s1ing3r]

Perhaps we should help poor people in general as opposed to directed aid at an entire racial group.

The "problem" so far as the race-pimps are concerned is that that would help a lot of the "evil" people in rust-belt ex-manufacturing towns and they don't want to help those people because they have the "wrong" melanin levels.

[u/DisastrousBarnacle60 → u/Own_General5736]

who are you talking about? name names. those people sound pretty bad, so you should have no fear about naming them.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/c0d3s1ing3r]

There is a difference though. It really has nothing to do with if you are poor or not.

there could be an African American, Be wealthy, their past family members were slaves-- They would be owed reparations.

It really has nothing to do with their current financial status-- but the financial status that could have been passed down through generational wealth if they were not slaves. And also some justice and actionable acknowledgment that says "Hey-- as a government we failed you and we want to make it better"

[u/c0d3s1ing3r → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

Does how well a slave was treated have bearing on how much reparation money they're owed now?

Also, this is coming from the government, and the government is made up of taxpayers, absolutely zero of which had anything to do with slavery. Reparations would have been nice, but probably right around after the civil war, not now (40 acres and a mule right?)

How exactly would the money get doled out? Is it going to be via a tax credit? That's about the only way I could see it working, because otherwise whatever one-time tax is instituted would also affect rich black people, to their overall detriment.

As it stands, the burden of proof for something like this would be immense. I have Jamaican black friends that came to this country in the mid 1900s. They don't deserve reparations for slavery, obviously, but there isn't that much documentation surrounding whose ancestors were American slaves.

This is why I'm saying, if reparations are being discussed, then they should take the form of helping the disadvantaged now, because the ancestors of slaves will be disproportionately helped in doing so.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/c0d3s1ing3r]

Does how well a slave was treated have bearing on how much reparation money they're owed now?

What do you think? Do you think, considering how you live today, that you being enslaved against your will in any capacity would matter? Lets translate that question to murder.

Do you think the punishment of murder should be less severe if you kill a person in such a humane way that it doesn't cause pain?

While you might argue that one is Murder and the other is enslavement and they are different, I would argue the opportunities taken away are what is in question. Which in both cases is the ability to live your life how you want-- and one of those things is the ability to generate wealth and pass that on to your next of kin.

and the government is made up of taxpayers, absolutely zero of which had anything to do with slavery.

You are twisting it and you're incorrect- the government facilitated the legality of slavery, thusly the United States as an entity is responsible for that.

I never said you as a taxpayer are directly responsible for slavery-- but there are a lot of people that are alive today that benefited from slavery-- and there are a lot of people that are alive today that are left behind due to slavery.

I don't think the concept is very hard to wrap your head around. Person A, who had family that owned slaves made a lot of money-- while person B, who had family members that were slaves made no money.

Person A as a result lives an easy lifestyle, afforded easy access to college and an established network for a career, whereas Person B might not have that easy lifestyle, access to college etc. -- Their generational wealth that could have been passed to them is not there. -- But that wouldn't be the qualifying factor of getting reparations, the qualifications would just need to be "Did you have family that were legally enslaved under united states law?"

40 acres and a mule right?

Which if I recall the US never made good on that, as Andrew Johnson reversed "Special Field Orders No. 15" -- and made successful efforts (if I recall correctly) had taken nearly 1 million acres away from freed slaves and gave it back to the former owners.

How exactly would the money get doled out? Is it going to be via a tax credit? That's about the only way I could see it working, because otherwise whatever one-time tax is instituted would also affect rich black people, to their overall detriment.

I am not an expert in economy, hell, even economists have trouble understanding the economy-- I doubt many people, in general, have the research and the experience to accurately speak on the subject. -- But-- if Germany can give reparations to Holocaust survivors to make things right (which they are still doing today, in the year 2019, they gave out some 500+ million dollars to them), then we can give reparations to the families of former slaves who lost out on the opportunity to create generational wealth in early America. -- If I, as a veteran, can get benefits for serving my country and getting injured, if the United States can give covid relief checks, then we can certainly give reparations, be it money or services.

Recalling Person A and B previously, I believe the minimum would be to give those families, and their children after them, access to either extremely affordable higher education-- or just make it free for them. If generational wealth led to Person A to ultimately attend Harvard with no financial hardship or burden-- then that same opportunity should be granted to those that had that generational wealth taken away from them. <-- and this would be the minimum. As even if a former slave's family became wealthy on their own accord afterward-- they would still have a right to those reparations.

but regarding in how it would be doled out-- I don't know-- that isn't on me to figure out, it's on the government to make it happen. If the people in the united states feel that it should be done, then they need to figure it out, that's why we have people in Office to represent us and facilitate how we want our country to be.

As it stands, the burden of proof for something like this would be immense

I am sure it would-- I don't see this as a reason to just not do it, though.

then they should take the form of helping the disadvantaged now,

But ultimately it doesn't matter if you are disadvantaged or not. They are reparations for a wrong that has happened in the past. If your mother was killed because she was hit by a semi truck that was neglecting his duties-- you would want reparations. Even if you were a millionaire-- would you not want justice?

What matters is "did you have family members that were legally enslaved under laws in the united states? yes? Then the government should give reparations for that.

[u/c0d3s1ing3r → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

The biggest difference between slavery and those other atrocities to mentioned, is that slavery happened about 150 years ago, and there are no living confederates, slave owners, or slaves around today. There are still living Holocaust survivors, and if dear old mom got hit by a truck because that truck driver was acting negligent I'd be able to sue because the truck driver is around and alive.

Frankly I don't think Germany should be on the hook for the reparations at this point considering how much that country has changed and how much the country had already given out.

I don't know-- that isn't on me to figure out

Well, you should be taking more initiative to try and figure out how. The way a cause is implemented can make all of the difference in the world. To take it to an extreme, if you don't care about how it's implemented, policy makers very well may just listen to lobbyists and disperse reparations in the form of coupons to particular stores.

That's an extreme example, but this sort of policy crafting demands specifics. It's similar to BLM. Sure, black lives matter, but is the focus of the movement just going to be on ending police violence towards minorities? Or should it focus more on the specific issues affecting the most black lives, like drugs and violence.

Which if I recall the US never made good on that, as Andrew Johnson reversed "Special Field Orders No. 15" -- and made successful efforts (if I recall correctly) had taken nearly 1 million acres away from freed slaves and gave it back to the former owners

Yep, you're right, one of the biggest travesties in history, namely because it would be a moot point nowadays if they'd gone for it, now it's annoyingly complicated.

You are twisting it and you're incorrect- the government facilitated the legality of slavery, thusly the United States as an entity is responsible for that

Funny story about who funds the US government.

Keep in mind that all of the Union descendants will end up paying the reparations as well, every immigrant that came into the country after 1865, every woman who had no say politically back then.

If anything, you could go ahead and limit this to slaves, and slave owner descendants, but then you're doing a funny little thing called punishing people for the sins of their fathers, which is generally frowned upon today.

But this weird idea that the US government just has a bottomless purse is straight up wrong, covid relief was a once in a lifetime issue, infrastructure spending is expected to improve the economy over time and pay for itself. I can't get past the fact that non-slave owners are footing the bill for this.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/c0d3s1ing3r]

is that slavery happened about 150 years ago,

Can you explain why the united states as an entity specifically should not be held accountable? If you think 'time' is a reasonable factor, why?

I would argue that the laws made about slavery have directly impacted those who are descendants today and because of that the united states is responsible.

Frankly I don't think Germany should be on the hook for the reparations at this point considering how much that country has changed and how much the country had already given out.

Well, they morally held themselves to the standard that they are. Shrug

you should be taking more initiative to try and figure out how.

The same initiative that drives you to say "Germany shouldn't be giving reparations because of how much they gave out"? What have they given out that you think is too much to then think that?

It's similar to BLM. Sure, black lives matter, but is the focus of the movement just going to be on ending police violence towards minorities

I think you miss understand blm. It's literally to point out violence police have toward black people.

It's to say, at the very least from their perspective, that other races seem to be treated this way, and I see that I am being treated differently. So much so that it comes across that "Every life except black lives matters" so they want to come out and say "hey, black lives matters" --- then you have morons that say "well doesn't every life matter?" And it's like... No shit, if every life matters, I feel like black people are not on this list...

but then you're doing a funny little thing called punishing people for the sins of their fathers

What would you do... If you knew that your father brutally murdered someone. And one day you sat across from that persons mother and they knew your father did what they did.

Would you not try to apologize? To give some reparations to make it right?

Reparations does not always need to be money. It could be a service or something. But-- We all pay taxes for shit we don't like, it isn't a punishment. It's just something we have to do.

But this weird idea that the US government just has a bottomless purse is straight up wrong,

And I never claimed they did.

[u/c0d3s1ing3r → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

Can you explain why the united states as an entity specifically should not be held accountable?

If you want an apology, sure, but if you want reparations, then no, because as mentioned before governments are made up of their people (most especially their budgets)

Would you not try to apologize? To give some reparations to make it right?

I'd say sorry and I'd probably buy them lunch, yeah. If they were currently struggling financially, I would try and direct them to existing services which may be able to take care of them. Similar to how I support that "forced self improvement" idea I had for this.

I wouldn't do anything more than that though. For something that terrible I can't really do or say anything to make it much better.

If you think 'time' is a reasonable factor, why?

5 years is nothing in history, 20 is the difference in a generation, 100 is the difference in people that are alive.

150 is enough for not only all slaves to be dead, all slave owners to be dead, but also all of their children to be dead (excluding a few fringes of course)

the laws made about slavery have directly impacted those who are descendants today and because of that the united states is responsible.

You could also argue that the US supporting a program like liberia, to send slaves back to Africa, was a way of making up for this. I wouldn't agree to that one either, but the idea that there isn't already some sense of guilt, or some attempts to try and reverse what had happened, is just wrong.

What have they given out that you think is too much to then think that?

Not just what, but who is paying it. What percentage of German citizens during world war II had something to do with the holocaust? What percentage today?

then you have morons that say "well doesn't every life matter?" And it's like... No shit, if every life matters, I feel like black people are not on this list...

I have always been of the mind that BLM should have started out with the phrase ALM at the outset, it would have been much more palatable and more in line with the messages of civil rights leaders like MLK. That's neither here nor there though.

We all pay taxes for shit we don't like, it isn't a punishment. It's just something we have to do.

Well, it's not like it isn't affecting other people, money going toward reparations is money not going toward other goods and services.

[u/Nygmus → u/c0d3s1ing3r]

The biggest difference between slavery and those other atrocities to mentioned, is that slavery happened about 150 years ago, and there are no living confederates, slave owners, or slaves around today.

Sure, those date back that far, but the idea of reparations to repair the denial of generation upon generation of collective wealth is a lot more palatable considering that plenty of those who participated in that denial are still very much alive.

[u/eldomtom2 → u/Nygmus]

How do you determine who was hurt by Jim Crow? How do you determine who supported Jim Crow?

[u/c0d3s1ing3r → u/Nygmus]

Then make them pay for it, not everyone else

[u/WorksInIT → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

Honestly, if the people advocating for this kind of policy can't even figure out how it should work then why should anyone else give a fuck? This seems like performative wokeness to me.

[u/sheffieldandwaveland → u/WorksInIT]

Naw bro, theres a small minority of wokies that actually believe in this shit. Its mind boggling.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/WorksInIT]

Lol-- I doubt most people know the first thing about how current policies are specifically employed and operated.

This is such a fallacious argument. This logic could be translated to "well I am going to court for this thing-- no need to hire a lawyer-- if I cannot figure it out on my own-- then I deserve whats coming to me."

What is the point in having a government where we vote in people to handle things that we want done? If we can just do it ourselves-- then Fuck it-- why do we need to get people who know how to do it (ideally).

No need to hire a plumber or a mechanic-- if I want my car fixed-- then I should know how to fix it. -- while that sounds like something reasonable, it's ultimately stupid because you cannot expect everyone to have this kind of knowledge.

If I know something is right or that something should be done-- it doesn't mean that I have to know how to do it. If I own a business-- I know I need to do taxes, I haven't the first clue how to do taxes-- does that somehow mean I am not responsible for my taxes? Fuck no. I might need to hire a person to do it for me.

Above is literally the same as you voting for a person that claims they know how to represent you and make changes in the government on your behalf as a society.

If you cannot reconcile that -- it's not wholly your fault-- but there is a certain meta taking place where that just wouldn't be my problem to try and understand it for you.

[u/WorksInIT → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

I'm just pointing out the obvious. Right now, you only have the support of people that already agree with you. You need to gather more support for something like this to happen. For that to work with something this complicated, you need to know how it will actually work. Basically, if the people pushing this nonsense don't have a plan, or even a remote idea for how it would work then everyone else should just ignore them and the people that agree with them.

[u/Own_General5736 → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

there could be an African American, Be wealthy, their past family members were slaves-- They would be owed reparations.

Why? They weren't enslaved. Generational guilt is immoral.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/Own_General5736]

I am not implying you should be guilty-- I am saying that the money that slave could have generated for doing the same work-- could have been passed down generationally to provide wealth to their next of kin.

That money reasonably should have went to that slave to pass down-- it wasn't. Because the government facilitated the legality of that-- it would ultimately fall on that government to fix it, esp if they recognize it was morally wrong later.

[u/Own_General5736 → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

And the money that could've been made by the Union soldiers who gave their lives to end slavery could've been passed down generationally, too. I doubt you want to see compensation for their descendants.

The fact is that human history is full of atrocities and its simply not useful to obsess over them. They happened, we stopped them, move on.

[u/MikeHootch]

I know that this won't actually fix anything- it's like pouring water into a sieve- so there will be more calls for reparations and it will never actually end. So no, I don't support it.

[u/oath2order → u/MikeHootch]

so there will be more calls for reparations and it will never actually end.

Building off this, the issue I've always had with reparations is "exactly how do you determine the amount of money to be spent?"

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/oath2order]

Reparations do not necessarily need to be paid in money- It can be a service such as free or really affordable education, Better home loans, tax cuts, etc etc

-- Native Americans had a form of reparations -- the land that was given to them after we basically ransacked their home.

[u/reaper527 → u/MikeHootch]

I know that this won't actually fix anything- it's like pouring water into a sieve- so there will be more calls for reparations and it will never actually end.

example: stimulus checks.

it didn't matter how many checks the government wrote, people always wanted more.

[u/Own_General5736 → u/MikeHootch]

Well said. It's become quite clear that there is no actual end-state for these people and so there is no reason to keep listening to them. There is simply no reason to try to satisfy the openly unsatisfiable.

[u/elsydeon666]

Reparations is a red herring to the actual issue of generational poverty and policies.

Instead of actually helping people, certain social and political leaders would benefit more by keeping people poor and giving them fake hope and non-working solutions.

Believing in a leader who needs you to be poor so he can "help" you is like believing the (pre-2016) Cubs will win the World Series.

[u/Haunted_Valleys]

American Slavery was a pre-modern productive arrangement that was inevitably crushed by the forward march of industrial capitalism. Reparations feel absurd because you're trying to bring a tort to the totality of human history, it's like suing an earthquake.

I also don't think the United States should return the Southwest to Mexico, even if it made sense in a meaningless, dry application of tort law to statecraft, because doing so would simply be bad for the United States. Similar to how it's ill-advised to apply ideas of personal thrift to public economic policy, I think states work on a different moral framework than the justice between individual parties.

[u/thedudefromGC]

Absolutely not... why should I pay for something my family or I were never part of. No American or their immediate family were slaves. Trying to put this in the current infrastructure bill will be a huge mistake.

[u/capitalsfan08 → u/thedudefromGC]

How old are your family members? I'm not old by any means, but my parents and grandparents lived in segregated areas due to government actions (and so did yours, in all likelihood if they grew up in postwar suburbs or newly gentrified areas in cities) and my parents went to schools that were still in the process of desegregating. To act like that we completely washed our hands of the subject in 1865 is a bit absurd.

[u/thedudefromGC → u/capitalsfan08]

If you actually think that reparations will solve any problems, you’ are part of the problem. I’m Hispanic and I still live in the south. My family has endured everything you mentioned, but did we ask for anything? no.... we put our big boy pants on and made our own. I make my own way and am in charge of my own destiny. If people would stop acting like victims, they could probably make something of themselves. No one is predetermined to be unsuccessful. How bad do you want it and how much work are you willing to put toward your goal are the deciding factors. Sitting around drinking and smoking get you nowhere, those are choices that you make. I don’t drink and have never taken an illegal drug in my life. I have seen my own family make those stupid mistakes and chose to do the opposite. Anyways.... with today’s society any reparations would likely only benefit Gucci or Air Jordan because the American youth have their priorities all out of whack. We may not see the immediate benefit of our choices, but our later generations will reap what we sow.

[u/Falcon4242 → u/thedudefromGC]

This "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" narrative ignores the fact that the groups we're talking about were actively disadvantaged and discriminated against. GI Bill benefits rarely went to African American veterans after WW2, those who could get homes outside of that had to deal with redlining that prevented them from getting mortgages for valuable homes. Since schools are funded by property taxes, the less valuable homes that African Americans could get approved for meant worse schools for their kids. Some groups actively tried to lower property values of African Americans. Some communities that became successful, like Tulsa, got absolutely demolished by racist groups.

Wealth is generational and compounding. While my ancestors were cashing out of their homes that grew in value over their lives and passing that wealth and societal benefits onto my grandparents and parents, African Americans were being actively denied that benefit. You can't act like the only difference between success for African Americans and everyone else is the will to be successful when there are people alive today that were denied the right to vote, grew up in segregated schools, and denied the ability to buy homes that they could afford because of redlining.

This isn't ancient history. It's also not unique: we paid reparations to Japanese people who were forced into internment camps ~40-50 years after it happened, equating to around $43,000 in modern money per person. And the same arguments against that policy are the same arguments being used now. The fact that we refused to do anything about our injustices against African Americans for decades shouldn't be a defense against doing what's right.

[u/thedudefromGC → u/Falcon4242]

OMG.... so you feel that reparations are the way to go? Let’s ask ourselves some reasonable questions, not trying to be a prick.... just some basic questions. How would you determine who gets it and how much they get? Do you need to be black or can Hispanics get it? After all... we were discriminated against as well. What if you are mixed race, 1/2 black and 1/2 white, do you count as only .5 of a black person?? Or do only people of Color get it? How will people be able to prove that their ancestors were slaves? Do you DNA test everyone? After all, I’m 4% African, do I qualify? Will the color of your hair, skin or eyes determine what you get. How about if you’re black but your family came to the US in the past 150 years, will they be able to get in on it? Where does it begin or stop? Don’t take this as pure sarcasm, these statements are really valid questions.

What would be your plan for rolling out reparations to all descendants? I’m curious to hear your answer.

[u/Falcon4242 → u/thedudefromGC]

Well, there's good news! Democrats in Congress and Biden are backing measures to create a commission that would study and attempt to answer all of those questions! So, if you actually were interested in the topic and not just asking questions to try and deligitimize, you could support that measure and look into what their results are. Bills like this that create a commission to study this issue have existed for over 3 decades. "OMG" indeed.

But you have to have an open mind and acknowledge that there has in fact been a concerted effort to discriminate against people in this country, and that said discrimination has had generational effects that can be felt to this day. If you can't acknowledge that, then there's no reason to continue the discussion. No argument about practicality and implementation would matter whatsoever.

[u/thedudefromGC → u/Falcon4242]

There is no way that this would ever be realistically rolled out. If it were, I’m definitely buying stock in Gucci.

Keep living on the plantation buddy.... those Democrats love that. They stay in power by keeping you down and feeding empty promises. You are correct... we have nothing else to say to each other. Good evening.. I have a really good job to go to tomorrow.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/thedudefromGC]

You wouldn't-- it wouldn't make sense for you as an individual to pay anything. It would come from the government. The government allowed it-- the government now understands that it was wrong to do so-- so it would stand that the government would give reparations.

Also, reparations do not need to be paid in money-- but could also be in the form of services, etc etc.

[u/thedudefromGC → u/[deleted]]

I would much rather have my tax dollars allocated to programs that benefit all society. I believe that treating all Americans equally with dignity and respect will have a much better effect on society. Paying reparations for something that never happened to the people who will benefit the most, will only further divide the country and cause more animosity between people. How can you justify dealing out benefits based on your skin color? Additionally, why should someone benefit for something that happened to someone else over 160 years ago? If you want to give out free stuff... try community college, basic accounting classes or basic social programs for everyone, not just a certain skin color.

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/[deleted]]

That would also include african amerians that are also receiving those reparations. I pay my taxes-- but I also get Veteran Benefits. So I also sorta fund my own monthly payment from them.

I don't see a difference in this. Rebudget, reallocate funds, and pay reparations. The united states government allowed it to happen, and understand it was wrong-- they need to pay reparations. Pretty simple.

But you specifically -- have to pay taxes regardless- That money-- isn't yours, its the governments/society.

[u/eldomtom2 → u/Ab0ut47Pandas]

The united states government allowed it to happen, and understand it was wrong-- they need to pay reparations.

This assumes "the government" is some entity that exists beyond the people who form it.

[u/Equal-Manufacturer63 → u/[deleted]]

>you have never taken an economics or government class....the government is funded by one source....the people.

You know that's entirely incorrect right?

The deficit is the government simply creating money for example.

[u/Humble_Lie9944 → u/Equal-Manufacturer63]

Creating money by the goverment causes inflation. And who pays the price for inflation?

the people

[u/thedudefromGC → u/Equal-Manufacturer63]

Sure.... print all the money you want and devalue the dollar. Our currency will be 1:1 with the peso in a few years. Overall, who pays the price for the inflation....The people do.

[u/NigroqueSimillima → u/thedudefromGC]

I didn't have anything to do with the cold war, but I'm still paying via my taxes.

[u/thedudefromGC → u/NigroqueSimillima]

Lol.... OMG Really? Is Russia paying anything to Eastern European countries they brutalized for decades? Let’s go farther back... should Italy pay reparations for the Roman occupation of Britain in 43 AD? They were there for almost 400 years... why the heck not.

[u/WorksInIT → u/thedudefromGC]

This is one of my main problems with reparations. Where does it end?

[u/Falcon4242 → u/WorksInIT]

Well, that's not really something that can be determined until we figure out where it starts. There was a definite end after we passed reparations for the victims of Japanese internment. Turned out to be ~$43,000 per person in modern money.

[u/WorksInIT → u/Falcon4242]

You misunderstood what I was saying.

[u/thedudefromGC → u/WorksInIT]

I agree... do we need to check everyone’s DNA to see what percentage of African they are? How would that work? Would a higher percentage of African ancestry dictate how much they are entitled to receive or would it solely rely on the color or hue of their skin? There are many mixed race Americans out there. Heck... my family is from Spain and I am 4% African according to Ancestry. What would I get?

By jove...I’ve got it... stay with me ... little bit of a run on.... calculate everyone’s socioeconomic standing and derive a factor to multiply by based on every person that has lived in North America from 1492 to 2021 and assign a minimum requirement to qualify. Once that number is established, multiply that by how old they are and then divide it by 13, because of the 13 colonies and this is the percentage of the fictional pie they are entitled to get. Plus... people with the higher percentage of African genetics get more based on bonus points for hair, skin, eye color and what model of car they drive. This would be a never ending conundrum and a very slippery slope to go down. Either way you look at it, this would be the definition of racist. By the way, I agree with you and I don’t mean to be sarcastic., this is an asinine topic.

[u/WorksInIT → u/thedudefromGC]

Yes, people make this entirely too complicated. The people pushing for this stuff seem to just want to address the disproportionate amount of black people that live in poverty. So just enact more efficient poverty busting policies. It will disproportionately benefit black people living in poverty. Seems really simple, and we never even need to involve race in the discussion.

[u/ManBearScientist → u/thedudefromGC]

No American or their immediate family were slaves.

While contextually true, roughly 5.1% of Americans have been incarcerated and penal labor is the only legal slavery under the 13th Amendment. Additionally, around 400,000 are believed to be illegally enslaved in modern America.

Obviously the context is that no American alive today was enslaved via the chattel slavery system that existing prior to the 13 Amendment, nor where any Americans parents enslaved by said system.

There have, however been reparations for other government abuses including for systematic discrimination of the farm loan system against black farmers. While chattel slavery reparation cannot be feasibly linked to modern day Americans or their direct ancestors, other forms of discrimination existed past that. People alive today have been subject to:

• Redlining
• 'Reverse' redlining
• Miscegenation laws
• Segregation laws
• Oregon's black exclusion laws
• Justice system discrimination (numerous examples)
• Sharecropping abuse
• Sundown laws
• GI Bill discrimination
• Unethical human experimentation
• Racial covenents

[u/tampora701]

The solution to race-based policies is not alternative race-based policies. There is no such thing as benevolent racism.

[u/sheffieldandwaveland]

The blowback to this would be enormous. Democrats would literally be falling on their sword. Normal people would be outraged. Only the wokies (no offense) would be happy about this

[u/the_ultracheese_tbhc → u/sheffieldandwaveland]

I honestly think if the Dems tried this the Republicans would win the popular vote for the first time since 2004.

[u/yittiiiiii]

It depends.

If you mean reparations in terms of take money from white people and give it to black people, then no, I don’t believe there should be reparations. For one thing, I think you’d have a hell of a time getting race-based taxation past the 14th amendment. Also, it would be extremely difficult to determine which people were the descendants of slave owners and which people were the descendants of slaves. Furthermore, throwing money at people isn’t going to solve the problem. The money needs to be put towards building up the communities that weren’t able to thrive due to historically racist policies so that the people of these communities can get jobs and become self-sufficient. A check from the government will only last so long, whereas giving people the opportunity to provide for themselves is forever.

Therefore, if we were to structure laws to incentivize businesses to build in poorer communities (through opportunity zones and things of that nature) that will be the best way to correct the injustices of slavery.

And also, the Democratic Party should have to pay whatever costs since they were the ones that were pro slavery.

[u/UnspecifiedHorror]

Racial welfare is a terrible idea for many reasons : lack of historical records, unfairness to current citizens who did not contribute or benefit from slavery, racial mixing etc.

Help the poor with social programs and lift them out of poverty. That's the only fair solution.

[u/NardCarp → u/UnspecifiedHorror]

In my opinion, the one thing that would do the most good, BY FAR, is simply breaking up densely populated poor areas

Throughout the world and history, every densely populated poor areas has had exponentially higher violent crime rates, lower education rates, and a higher rate of cyclical poverty.

These areas breed failure and crime regardless of race and/or culture.

Simply breaking up those areas and spreading the poor out to more rural areas would do far more good for minorities (and whites in those areas) than anything I have ever seen proposed.

• Provide assistance moving them to planned out rural areas

• Provide incentives for businesses to create jobs in those areas. (Will be far easier with less crime and cheaper overhead)

The thing this country needs to fix, and can easily fix is the great migration of the 70's where minorities were headed into densely populated urban areas. Since then

• Arrests have gone up

• Sentencing disparities have gone up

• Wage gap between minorities and whites has only expanded, despite consistently closing prior to the great migration

• Education levels in minorities have dropped.

Breaking up densely populated poor areas will cause the largest and fastest change

[u/the_ultracheese_tbhc]

Even ignoring the morality of reparations, from a practical standpoint, how would such a bill get past Manchin and the filibuster? Much less SCOTUS? Lesser courts have already slapped down other forms of race-based aid as illegal and discriminatory.

[u/mouthpanties → u/the_ultracheese_tbhc]

You don’t get by it. Cause it is wrong.

[u/boojoowoo → u/[deleted]]

Comparing ancient history enslavement to slavery which was only abolished a couple hundred years ago and institutional segregation which was only abolished a few decades is a bad faith argument. That’s not to say reparations would work, it’s just to say your logic is shite.

[u/joeydee93 → u/boojoowoo]

I'm not commenting either way on if US reparations are due.

I think it is pretty clear that there is some sort of Statute of Limitations. What Ceasar did to the Gauls was awful, but I dont know anyone arguing that France should get reparations from Italy because of it.

Therefore we can concluded that 2000 years is pass this "statute of Limitations". Also the US gave reperations to the victims of the Japanese Internment Camps roughly 50 years after the incident.

I'm not sure were I fall between 50-2000 years for a statue of Limitations but that is what we are discussing.

[u/boojoowoo → u/joeydee93]

The principle of statute of limitations is time. There are people still alive who suffered the consequences of slavery and institutional racism. Again, comparing ancient history to modern atrocities is bad faith.

[u/joeydee93 → u/boojoowoo]

There isn't anyone alive who was a slave in the US.

There are people who have suffered the consequences if institutional racism such as Red Lining and Jim Crow laws.

But you are the one grouping slavery (no alive for) and institutional racism.

What is modern? Anything that has happened in the last 400 years since the 1st slaves that came to America?

[u/Ab0ut47Pandas → u/[deleted]]

The idea of reparations for the past is stupid

What? I gather that typically there is a statute of limitation on a lot of things. -- But reparations can only be given for things that have already happened. When you sue a company because their chemicals gave your mother cancer-- you would want reparations for that.

If my grandfather was killed by a drunk driver-- I would want reparations for that. bare in mind-- that you could own a person just 156 years ago. To put that in perspective, that is two people living to the age of 78 back to back.

Also-- the laws were so loose that, after slavery was abolished, you could enslave someone for committing petty crimes.

It's interesting to me, I knew my great-grandmother. -- she lived to be 105. Our family owned a few slaves-- then after it was abolished they continued to have "slaves" because "they broke the law" --- IE they did something trivial that would be akin to paying a fine today. It was really shitty-- that side of my family is kinda shitty and really fucking stupid.

So this:

That’s like me saying that all the Germans owe me money and etc. for the Holocaust or how the Egyptians enslaved my people like 2000 years ago, so the Egyptians owe me money and shit as well.

Is stretching it a bit-- but you literally do not know what you are talking about because holocausts survivors literally get reparations today.

"[in 2019], Germany paid $564 million to the Claims Conference, which handles the payments." But GERMANY paid reparations-- not its citizens.

I swear-- people that cannot wrap their head around this shit-- it just causes so many issues. -- Between the simple concept of paying reparations to wearing a mask/getting vaccinated. Its like you feel like something is being taken away from you when -- literally nothing is.

[u/Equal-Manufacturer63 → u/[deleted]]

>Nobody alive today had to deal with whatever it was that people are crying about.

There's incredibly wealthy people alive today who still continue to financially benefit from the wealth that slaves created for them 150 years ago.

And likewise, there are American citizens alive today who are still financially and socially disadvantaged by their ancestors having been traded as chattels, and being used to create wealth for others.

[u/oath2order → u/[deleted]]

Only shit hole countries with extreme religious cults still practice slavery today.

Or the U.S., for example, in prison.

[u/jafomatic → u/oath2order]

He did say "shithole" and "extreme religious cults" which kinda sounds like my home country.

[u/Mister-Stiglitz]

I believe they should be, but would be best administered in the form of targeted infrastructural aid to historically redlined communities.

[u/the-cal-zone → u/Mister-Stiglitz]

MPLS here, we are removing racial covenants from deeds, and people who file to remove them can make a donation to the African American Community Land Trust to help with down payment assistance for first-time home buyers who are People of Color.

It's a small step, but it is a form of reparations, directly tied to a historically racist policy, and 'makes up' for it by directly countering the policy in question.

Something like this could easily be done by institutions like the government on a much larger scale.

Edit: shout out to Free the Deeds

[u/Mister-Stiglitz → u/the-cal-zone]

This is pleasant to hear about.

[u/the-cal-zone → u/Mister-Stiglitz]

Thanks! Free the Deeds

[u/Yrths]

In some of the international cases (eg Haiti v France, Jamaica v UK) there are paper trails and valuations that could be used to estimate effective damages, and there is a case to be made that, insofar as inheritor states inherit credits as well as debts, they have remediable liabilities in the name of the State to address.

[u/FloridaOutlaw2021]

how about reps to the white soldier families fighting for their freedom (from slavery)

[u/neuhmz → u/FloridaOutlaw2021]

Look up civil war pensions, actually where the term red tape came from.

[u/stubble3417]

Yes, of course. To everyone complaining about how that was so long ago and doesn't affect anyone today--Ruby Bridges is younger than my parents. I am 33.

Jim Crow wasn't our great-great-grandparents' generation. It was our parents'. There are hundreds of thousands of people alive today who were legally denied education, housing, transportation, and even access to swimming pools. It's insane that they have not been compensated. Just like the US under Reagan compensated the victims of the US concentration camps for Asians during WWII, the US under any current administration can compensate people who were legally oppressed under Jim Crow.

Besides all that there are the "soft" effects of racism today, like mass incarceration and police brutality. But at the very least, we can agree that if the government explicitly, legally oppresses people it should attempt to do something about that.

[u/eldomtom2 → u/stubble3417]

It is much easier to determine who was interned in WWII compared to who was harmed by Jim Crow.

[u/stubble3417 → u/eldomtom2]

Is it? Are there any Black Americans who were not adversely affected by Jim Crow?

[u/eldomtom2 → u/stubble3417]

First, define "Black American". Second, I would fully expect that a few ended up benefitting from segregation.

[u/stubble3417 → u/eldomtom2]

How do you feel black Americans might have benefitted from being discriminated against? Also, would it matter? If a Japanese person somehow benefitted from being unjustly detained, that wouldn't change the injustice. If you're wrongly imprisoned, you're entitled to compensation even if that time in prison was somehow beneficial.

[u/eldomtom2 → u/stubble3417]

You are attacking the easy response and ignoring the hard one.

[u/stubble3417 → u/eldomtom2]

I'll respond to the other question. You didn't address everything in my original comment either and I didn't insist that you did so as a prerequisite for talking with you.

[u/eldomtom2 → u/stubble3417]

I'll respond to the other question.

When? It is easy and uncontroversial to say that black people were harmed by segregation. When you get into all the nitty-gritty details that reparations would require, it becomes far more complicated to define those things.

[u/joeydee93 → u/stubble3417]

Well anyone who immigrated to America after the repeal of the Jim Crow laws.

They have dealt with racism and prejudice but not the Jim Crow laws themselves.

[u/Own_General5736 → u/stubble3417]

And reparations were paid in the form of welfare programs targeted at the once-discriminated-against communities. So job's done, nothing left to complain about. If things didn't get better due to said welfare, well, that's not anyone's problem but the community in question.

[u/NardCarp]

No

The only thing that makes sense is the US and state governments helping anyone who lives in densely populated poor areas move to more sparsely populated areas.

We should also try and help provide incentives for businesses to move to these areas increasing job opportunities.

People are directly affected by the great migration in the 70s. That needs to be adjusted back

[u/geoffbraun]

Who is going to pay? The politics party who fought for slavery and Jim Crow? I doubt they will shill out the money, so the taxpayers are to pay for the DNC’s evil...par for the course

[u/oath2order → u/geoffbraun]

The politics party who fought for slavery and Jim Crow? I doubt they will shill out the money, so the taxpayers are to pay for the DNC’s evil...par for the course

I feel like you're purposefully ignoring the party realignment of the 1960s.

[u/geoffbraun → u/oath2order]

Realignment suggests the Republican Party embraced these policies. I know narrative is the big party switch, and even if it were true, the dnc still was the party responsible for these injustices.

[u/Amped-1]

Reparations are made every single day for the most trivial of things. Break a neighbor's window, you repair it. Wreck their car - you fix it. The greater the damage, the greater the cost to both the injured and the one who caused the injury. The greater the numbers, the greater the cost, no matter how egregious or what size it is. However, reparations come in many forms as well, and it doesn't always come in sacks with a dollar sign on it, nor is it so black and white.

Slavery and racism go hand in hand. The stigma of slavery and racism are still intertwined in our society. They come in many shapes and sizes and because of them, the former slave community still suffers from what happened to their ancestors. And if you really think about it, slavery isn't something that happened hundreds or thousands of years ago, it's something quite recently was abolished in comparison.

Reparations begin with unraveling those wrongs that are intertwined in our society. It can come in the form of programs that benefit the ancestors of those that were wronged (free college, homebuyers incentives, guaranteed equal pay, etc.) when it comes to individuals

It can come in the form of simple acts, such as a country returning museum pieces stolen from another that they still benefit monetarily from to this very day. Giving that back and at least a percentage of the monetary gains lost through the centuries would be a good start. Returning lands taken and honoring treaties ignored would be another. No, no one expects it to be all given back, but returning them back to fertile land instead of unproductive sand would be a good start as well.

To do nothing would be the same as not punishing a person that murdered your family member, stole your priceless family heirlooms, raped your wife or child, etc. Society demands reparations for wrongs of the most trivial of things, it shouldn't be any different for anyone else. Germany has and is still paying reparations. The rest of the world shouldn't be absolved of their crimes either.

[u/NardCarp → u/Amped-1]

To do nothing would be the same as not punishing a person that murdered your family member, stole your priceless family heirlooms, raped your wife or child, etc

Wtf are you talking about?

Do you think we punish the grandchildren if murderers, burglars and rapists?

If you were a slave you deserve reparations, no doubt. If you were the great grandkid of a slave? No

[u/Amped-1 → u/NardCarp]

If those great-grandchildren continue to profit and benefit off of the nefarious act, then yes. It doesn't matter how much time has passed.

[u/NardCarp → u/Amped-1]

Hmmmm

About 7%of families in the US owned slaves.

If my linage puts me in the 93% of families that didn't own slaves do I still have to pay?

Let's pretend I'm in the 7%, could you explain how I profit and benefit from slavery?

Lastly, the first legal slave owner in the US was a black man and both black and native Americans owned slaves, do people from black slave owning families get reparations?

[u/Amped-1 → u/NardCarp]

Oh! Wow! I could write a book full of examples, but I'll just settle for a couple. First, yes, it is a great big pretense to claim that only 7% of the population's ancestors owned slaves. It's an interesting about-face when the odds are ever in your favor vs. when it's not.

If you are a U.S. citizen, then you are part of a country that has violated treaties and have to this day not honored them. In those violations, you as a citizen, whether you have had slaves or no, have reaped the rewards of those violations and in so doing become a guilty party. If your cousin's best friend fenced some stolen goods and gave you a cut, even though you may not have partaken in the robbery, you have gained from them. In doing so, you become part of the culpable party.

Where Anthony Johnson was concerned, it was a little more complex than that. Anthony was "enslaved" himself when he first came to the U.S. Back in his time, slavery wasn't what we think of it today. It was considered indentured servitude, and people in his time were not enslaved for life. They were freed once their debt was paid. These people weren't always black, either. It was religion that pretty much summed up if one would be more likely to be "enslaved". It wasn't until the 17th century that slavery that we recognize today, in which one was enslaved due to the color of one's skin, came to play. Mr. Johnson was long gone by that time. And with slavery came those preconceived notions that were pulled out people's arse to justify their actions and later to cover up their own shortcomings.

Those notions were that somehow people of color were inferior in some way and because of those idiotic notions that derived from slavery, have denied black people, even after they were freed, rights that white people enjoyed decades after.

One example is the G.I. bill. Black people fought just a valiantly in WWII as white people did. Yet, when they came home after the war, they weren't awarded all the goodies other G.I.'s did, like those home loans or free college educations that the socialist/communist government handed out at the time. Blacks were completely excluded purposely, by that same government they fought for just as hard as whitey.

Now just imagine if the tables were turned in that scenario, and you were unable to find a good job, get a mortgage, or go to school because all those perks were for "Blacks Only". How far do you think your ancestors on down would have done without the opportunity to build wealth for you and yours?

It boils down to owning up to one's responsibilities and righting wrongs that your country has made. If you consider yourself a patriotic citizen, then you take the good with the bad. You can't nit-pick and choose when you want to be a citizen.

[u/NardCarp → u/Amped-1]

In this manifesto you wrote, you didn't once explain how I continue to benefit from slavery

[u/Amped-1 → u/NardCarp]

Of course, I did. You just don't want to acknowledge it. People that think they are better because of race use it as a crutch to cover up their own shortcomings.

[u/timhortons81 → u/Amped-1]

No you didn't.

You gave a history lesson about things I bet you never went through, and it sounds like instead acknowledging your own shortcomings and that you are where you are in this life because of choices YOU'VE made, you're using your race and the atrocities that happened to your ancestors as a crutch.

Millions of black African Americans are extremely successful not because they received some generational wealth but because they had the drive to be and didn't sit around crying about poor me, waiting for a handout.

The first female millionaire was a black woman in the 19th century.. when it was really hard for black people in America. What's your excuse??

[u/NardCarp → u/Amped-1]

No you didn't.

How do I benefit from slavery in a way black people in America don't?

I'm a social worker that makes 37k a year, the media. Salary of a black man my age is 45k a year. So please explain how I'm benefiting from slavery instead of just ignorantly implying I'm racist

[u/timhortons81 → u/NardCarp]

Because its easier to call you a racist and blame everyone else for your woes.

[u/Amped-1 → u/NardCarp]

You can't see the forest for the trees. I live in a predominantly black area. The black people around me live in half a million dollar or more homes, drive expensive cars, and dress to the nines. My boss is black, is a business owner and is very successful. I watch on TV and see many successful black people taking in millions and let's not forget the juggernaut, Oprah who is probably worth billions. If I stayed within my little bubble, then yes, I could say that black people are doing just fine, and this call for reparations is a joke.

However, I do get outside my bubble, I read, travel, and don't rely on social media for news. In doing so, the illusion of black society having all the opportunities in my world come crashing down. I live in the only county in the country in which black people thrive. Go outside that county, and educate yourself, and you see a much harsher picture in which statistically, they don't own many homes, make less money, etc.

How do you benefit? Well, if you are white, and a family member fought in WWII, then the government helped that family member in the purchase of their first home, gave them an education that allowed them to build wealth. That wealth was passed down to you. As such, families today are much wealthier than their black counterparts that were denied the same.

You, if you are white, are able to get a job easier and get better pay. Segregation meant that jobs weren't available to black people, as they weren't allowed to mix with white people in office jobs and the like. They were reduced to menial jobs such as housemaids that paid crap. Upward mobility was practically null. The end result is that white people were allowed to prosper while blacks were stripped of that opportunity. The accumulative effects carry over through the generations.

While things have improved a great deal from decades past, even today, blacks are paid less, have a harder time getting a job, a home, and are still discriminated against. An example is a black woman who wanted to sell her home. She got the house appraised, but the figure that came in was low. She suspected something was not right and had the house appraised again, but this time had a white friend stand-in for her pretending to own the home. The appraisal came in much higher. It's just a drop in the bucket to the kinds of racism that dominates to this day, that in itself doesn't mean that much, but accumulative, it does real harm. You, as a white person, benefit as you don't have to worry if your house appraisals are going to be fair, you stand a better chance of being employed, getting better pay, a better rate for your loans, the better chance of getting one. All these small things add up and give you an easier life in comparison to a black person. These things have been going on since slavery, based on race, was enacted and has an effect on the generations following. They are still fighting for the basic rights that white people have had all along. Look at Haiti and you can see what colonialism has done and how it still impacts the people of that country even today. It's delusional to think that any of it hasn't made any impact at all.

This is just a drop in the bucket and I haven't even gotten into the same where Native American's, other races, and women no matter what color have been in the same boat.

[u/Amped-1 → u/NardCarp]

Oh! And you forget to mention that the first American slave owner, that happened to be black, had his property forcibly taken from his descendants because they were black and promptly made slaves themselves. That was in the next century after white "European enslaved" were freed and given their constitutional rights.

Funny how people who are given their God-given rights thrive when they're not oppressed... you know, not given the same rights as everyone else in society.

[u/Pineappleguns32]

This is probably one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard of. Nobody on Reddit has ever been oppressed in their life. People In America don’t know what oppression is, go try living in North Korea and see how you feel about life

[u/Dz6810]

The Chinese (China and Taiwan) have preferential treatments for ethnic minorities decades, including tax cuts, lower enrollment standards, reserved areas, and guarantees for members of parliament. In addition, there is a minimum staff ratio of employment (sum with the disabled), and companies that fail to reach this ratio will have to pay fines.

[u/OldSunDog1]

READ the constitution, specifically Article 14 Section 4. I think reparations are UNconstitutional.

This is specific in this article.

Here is the section.

4: The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

[u/Bassoon_Commie → u/OldSunDog1]

neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

That reads as the slaveowner won't be paid for the liberation of their slaves.

[u/Own_General5736]

Reparations are for the victims and from the victimizers. If either group is dead (and in the case of American slavery both groups are) then the window has closed.

[u/SpoonerismHater]

Yes, the US should be doing reparations for blacks and Native Americans. What those look like, I don’t know—but I’d trust a group of qualified experts to figure it out

[u/Wooba12 → u/SpoonerismHater]

Reparations for Native Americans should be easier, as they've generally belonged to a community that's existed through time, so it's easy to know who qualifies and who doesn't. You have a similar situation in New Zealand where Maori descendants are paid reparations for the systemic theft of their ancestors' land. But the descendants of slaves are all over the place and it might be difficult to track them down and see if they qualify.

[u/Telkk2 → u/SpoonerismHater]

This sounds like a privileged opinion. I love when privledged people talk about what my friends and I are going through as if they know the ins and outs of our lives and know what we need.

Lord knows we can't take care of ourselves. We need our white saviors.

[u/SpoonerismHater → u/Telkk2]

Ta-Nehisi Coates is super privileged, I guess: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

[u/Telkk2 → u/SpoonerismHater]

I have no idea if he is or if he isn't even though he is in a privledged position now. And if he struggled and made a positive life for himself good on him. Now let's figure out how we can get all people to do what he did...actualize a meaningful life for money.

A ubi is a fantastic start. Let's start with that instead of something ridiculously dumb like reparations. What an insult to our capacity to accomplish great things. What a deep shame it is that we would even consider this as a good option.

It's a fools idea and it always will be.

[u/SpoonerismHater → u/Telkk2]

If you don’t know who Ta-Nehisi Coates is, I think you’re going to have a hard time finding anyone who will take you seriously regarding race relations

[u/Telkk2 → u/SpoonerismHater]

Lol how about you ask all those people living in the hood who this person is.

Only people with too much time on their hands comes up with pseudo-insights about the black struggle. Real people like my friends in the hood know what struggle is. We struggle. This person does not. We deal with racism and prejudice. This person does not. We are forgotten and ignored. He is not.

Sorry but my friends and I are not victims of anything but an antiquated system that isn't able to address the radical changes that are happening due to technology. Racism is not the real problem here even if racism is a problem everywhere even in the hood.

The problem is our inability to figure out how to get people to actualize real meaning and purpose. Without that, no amount of money or education will help us or even people who are better off.

We need to decentralize our economy and teach ourselves how to thrive in that environment because the one we're in is dead and it has to go. Everything else like what you hear in the media is noise. Racism being the fundamental problem is noise.

We need to tune it out and focus on the big picture. Laterally decentralized networked economies. That is the solution and I urge people to look into this because you won't hear about it in mainstream.

[u/RikTheRick]

I saw a nice program that explained that the UK is still paying reparations to the slave owners.

[u/prinzplagueorange]

Should reparations be made? Yes, because wealth should be redistributed. Will reparations be made? No, because it is a politically unworkable demand because it lacks a mass constituency capable of forcing such reparations to be made. Given this, people who call for reparations would be better off calling for socialism, instead. Demanding socialism may not be quite as satisfying because it lacks the same morally indignant tone, but it amounts to almost the same thing and might actually have mass constituency that would support it (or at least such a movement could theoretically develop). Also, it avoids reparations' incoherent moral rhetoric of demanding compensation for a crime from a perpetrator who would be innocent according to the logic retribution.

[u/W0L77IE → u/prinzplagueorange]

Wealth should be redistributed…find yourself a ‘nice’ fascist or socialist country to go practice that mentality in…Afghanistan is up and coming. Perhaps you’d prefer Cuba or Venezuela.

[u/prinzplagueorange → u/W0L77IE]

find yourself a ‘nice’ fascist or socialist

Man, at least pick your insult. From my comment it should be clear that "socialist" is the right one. (Fascism is what capitalism resorts to when it is in extreme crisis, though it shares ordinary conservativism's obsessions with the nation, the family, and with violating the rights of socialists like myself. For obvious reasons, it's probably more your cup of tea than mine.)

Anyway, as a socialist my obligation is to try to stop people like you from attacking Cuba and Venezuela, not to move there myself.

[u/prinzplagueorange → u/[deleted]]

Someone has to work…but not you, right?

Why would you assume that I do not have a job? I do actually have a job, and I rather like it. I called for wealth redistribution to solve societal problems, not me not having a job. (And for what it's worth I am quite likely paid more at my job than you are at yours.) Some jobs other people have (management, advertising, finance, real estate, etc.) would likely be eliminated in a socialist society, but I would definitely be expected to keep doing my job. In terms of sustainability, I would suggest that the ecological crisis points to the unsustainability of capitalism.

[u/sircast0r → u/prinzplagueorange]

better a brown shirt then a red shirt
on a real argumentative point Fascism socialism and communism all spring from the mind of Karl Marx, the intrinsic differences are socialist argue capitalism and democracy help propel the state to its natural "end state" better, Communist's need a vanguard and educated elite to lead the unenlightened masses to the classless stateless society and Fascism wants the same but it further divides the classes by nationality as a construct that is real and cant be ignored and for one to benefit another must lose out causing the xenophobic tendencies that it has.

Communist and socialist like everyone just doesn't want to be tied with Nazi's for some reason it has very negative connotations /s
When capitalism is threatening to be overwhelmed by the red's the fallback isn't to fascism its to strong men like Pinochet and Francisco Franco

[u/prinzplagueorange → u/sircast0r]

Fascism socialism and communism all spring from the mind of Karl Marx,

This reveals that you both have not read a word of Karl Marx's writings, but that you also have not read much of anything written by anyone else in the 19th century either. Marx in no way invented the concepts of "socialism" / "communism". Heck, Marx didn't even invent many of the key concepts involved in his critique of capital (like "surplus value").

the intrinsic differences are socialist argue capitalism and democracy help propel the state to its natural "end state" better

No, the socialist position would be that democracy and the capitalist mode of production (it's actually not an -ism for Marx) are incompatible because democracy requires the empowerment of the people and capital accumulation requires their disempowerment. If workers are empowered, how will the boss be able to discipline workers (make them "efficient") in the way required by capital?

Communist's need a vanguard and educated elite to lead the unenlightened masses to the classless stateless society

That's Lenin, not Marx. Anyway, it's a weird thing that educated leadership is almost always deemed to be a good thing, except when socialism is discussed.

Fascism wants the same but it further divides the classes by nationality

No, "it" definitely does not want the "same." If it did, major industrialists in Germany would not have been backing the Nazis. Instead of speaking of fascism as a coherent thing, it's better to think of it as a movement of thugs who occasionally (but very rarely) become so useful to the political establishment that they are given free reign.

Communist and socialist like everyone just doesn't want to be tied with Nazi's for some reason it has very negative connotations

Well, there's also the fact that the fascists killed all the people I agree with and did all these things that I disagree with. This is one of those subjects that most people and I are in total agreement about.

Francisco Franco

So now Franco isn't even a fascist. I suppose that next week we will find out that Hitler wasn't a fascist either.

[u/NigroqueSimillima → u/W0L77IE]

Wealth is redistributed all the time.

Some of the biggest companies in America are funded by US taxpayer dollars, Boeing, Lockheed, Booz Allen, receive billions of taxpayer dollars each year. Banks received bailouts. Farmers get subsidies. Multinationals are protected by US goverment

[u/Own_General5736 → u/NigroqueSimillima]

Yes, and that should stopped, not be expanded.

[u/XLConnect]

I'm Dutch and white, relevant topic here as well. I understand things get passed down generations invisibly. Say grandma had a stillborn, this can affect grandchildren because certain things 'are not talked about' or get a knee-jerk response. I can't imagine what an entire people being treated like property (and worse) for generations will have imprinted.

That slavery ended in 1865 is not the right reference date b/c the racism lasted well into the 60's very openly and also today. There is a lot of hurt and humiliation still carried forward today.

Having said that, I can relate to other pain from my own youth. Nowhere near the scale of slavery but pretty serious. It had been eating me for decades. Only when I forgave my father could I let go and things turned better. Before that, I kept blaming him every day for what was wrong today. He was living in my head rent free every day poisoning everything.

If you want to change the world, you can only change yourself.

What does this have to do with the topic of reperations? If descendants of slavery keep holding on to the pain, repeating it as a means to get the reperations, it will stay where it is. You might subconsciously imagine some more just to be sure. Looking at others (the white man even) to take away what has been passed down will not work.

On the other hand, reperations might be the apology that helps people to be able to start letting go. An honest apology (not the emotional appropriation we see too often) is helpful, money would obv give it real substance. But if you focus on the money it could be a trap. The pain won't leave, the money will. Where are you then, as the score has been officially settled and you can't bring it up anymore.

Just something from my end to consider. Don't want to step on anyone's feelings, treading carefully given my 'race' 🤢 but I thought I saw a parallel with a lesson I paid for with decades of my life.

[u/TheHunter0420]

I don't believe that it should be paid!! What do people need reparations for something they didn't go through? If we pay reparations on this we are opening the gate for more people waiting free money! If we do end up giving blacks reparations for slavery then do the Irish get it as well? I also believe that if you want reparations for your ancestors being slaves then the people who made them slaves should pay it not people who used these slaves!

[u/Veyron2000]

Most campaigns for reparations will go nowhere, for the simple reason that they are far more popular among the people who will be *getting* the money than the people who will be paying for it.

Take reparations for slavery in the USA as a specific example - clear majorities of Americans oppose it. While African Americans are very much in favor, white Americans are very much against.

The difficulties with that kind of reparations are quite clear - deciding who exactly would get paid is quite hard, as is deciding who should pay for it. In principle one would try to restitute the wealth gained by slave owners and traders to the slaves' descendents. But adjudicating such claims would be very tricky, especially if that wealth had been effectively lost over the generations.

A generalised tax on the non-slave descended population would be problematic, because quite a large share of that population would have not gained any wealth from slavery.

There is also the question of whether a means tested program focused on helping people who are disadvantaged now would be more beneficial than a program solely focused on those who are descended from slaves.

I think among the strongest claims for reparations is one that is discussed much less in the US - which is the treatment of Native American tribes by the US government, specifically the cases where the US broke treaties it had signed in order to steal valuable native lands. In that case there is a clear legal injustice perpetrated by the government directly, the two parties (the native American tribe and the US government) are still extant, and the wealth in question (the land) is also fairly clear.

The fact this is discussed less than reparations for slavery says something about politics in America today. Politically I still think reparations for native American tribes is unlikely to happen, however it is perhaps easier to administer in practical terms by simply passing a law or having the courts recognise the native tribes as the rightful owners of the land in question - as with the restitution of Nazi acquired jewish property post WWII. Private individuals who were given or sold portions of the land by the US government would become tenants of the native tribe.

[u/Personage1]

Yes.

So I've read Ta-Nehisi Coates' The Case for Reparations. The thing about this discussion that always gets me rolling my eyes is how reasonable his suggestions are (I want to pause for a second and acknowledge that while he isn't some spokesperson for black people, that article is, for better or worse, one of the better known among white people, even if they haven't actually read it). Investigate how much wealth has been stolen from the black community? Understand how the past has lead to the situation we are in now? Implement policies that target communities that have been and still are affected by institutional racism and are struggling?

When I've looked into what reparations meant, I haven't really seen anything unreasonable.

[u/reaper527]

absolutely not.

money doesn't just come out of thin air. to give to one group it has to be taken from another. reparations are theft, plain and simple.

also worth noting, one of the defenses that people make for not deporting illegal immigrants is that "they shouldn't be punished for the decisions of their parents who brought them over when they were young". that position is 100% incompatible with the notion of "lets take money away from people for the actions of their ancestors 200 years ago" or even worse, "lets take money away from people because of the color of their skin, even if their ancestors came to america over a century after slavery was ended". (i realize you're talking about more than just america, but the same premise exists everywhere).

why should i have money taken away from me when my ancestors came to america between the 1930's and 50's?