r/UpliftingNews • u/Sariel007 • 19d ago
https://www.channel3000.com/city-of-madison-unveils-program-that-will-send-specialists-to-non-violent-mental-health-calls-instead-of-police/1k
u/canhasdiy 19d ago
Denver CO is running a similar program that is showing positive results, although I'm pretty sure they send an officer with the social workers in case the situation turns violent.
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u/Kelend 19d ago
Sending a social worker and officer together seems like an actual solution most people would get behind.
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u/urge69 19d ago
I’ve seen plenty of incidents online that seem like they won’t turn violent and end up violent anyway. Good to have them both.
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u/FinishingDutch 19d ago
Yep. I watch a lot of channels like Real World Police on YouTube. A lot of times things go from friendly to fighting in two seconds flat. Especially when dealing with things like domestic violence.
Let's just say... I wouldn't want that social worker's job. And I'd encourage them to wear a stab proof vest at the very least.
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u/TheSinOfQuinn 19d ago
I wouldn't want that social worker's job. And I'd encourage them to wear a stab proof vest at the very least.
It definitely takes a certain kind of person. Duly noted on the vest.
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u/LukeBomber 19d ago
But Social workers are used to this actually. There was one interviewed where she stated that she had many times needed to deescalate (not from a call) abrupt situations and she mustn't use physicial force. It may be different to someone they dont know already though
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u/mogsoggindog 19d ago
Seriously, at least the social worker can tell the officer to hang back and wait for a signal. The officer could learn a thing or two from watching the social worker.
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u/Firecracker048 19d ago
It's almost like police aren't trained to respond to mental health crisis and never were intended to act in that capacity
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u/cheap_dates 19d ago
They never were. I have two detectives in the family and they have been asking to have mental health professionals accompany them for years on these types of cases.
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u/Fluffee2025 19d ago
I used to be a sheriff deputy. I wasn't the guy who went out patrolling or picking people up, I just did security for courtrooms or the county buildings. It was a little sad when a person who was mentally handicapped had a breakdown on one of the elevators and the whole system collasped. I was the most trained to deal with the situation, since I worked with children with autism previous to working as a deputy, but I was the only deputy with a few inmates on the other side of the courthouse so I couldn't leave to assist.
Having worked as someone on both the law enforcement side and the social work side, I think pairing up with mixed teams woukd be for the best. I also hope that this would also include additional training for those who would be a part of these teams.
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u/KingOfTheYetis 19d ago
If you sit down with a police officer, and I have with a few dozen over the last year, they will tell you that they would LOVE to have this same pairing.
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u/TBLwarrior 19d ago
I think it will be important to train the specialists to be able to defend themselves also; sort of redundant I suppose but having one officer and a mental health specialist together is great, until one becomes a liability for the other. Not saying train each counter-part to the full extent the other is, but a foundation for both in the other’s area of specialization will be key for these programs to be as successful as possible.
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u/Five_Decades 19d ago
most mentally ill people aren't violent, they're just confused.
however cops are trained to be controlling and resorting to force which just causes mentally ill people to panic and get more confused.
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u/Firecracker048 19d ago
It's not that even. You can be as reasonable and level headed as possible but if you say the wrong thing it can trigger something I've dealt with it before.
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u/[deleted] 19d ago
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u/thatswhyicarryagun 19d ago
I think theyw were meaning the other way buy sure.
I was trying to release a severely mentally ill guy from jail because his case worker came to pick him up after the prosecution denied charges (that should have never been put on anyways). Simply opening his door and telling him he can leave was enough to make him snap. He was trying to sweep up some spilled cereal with his shirt and I told him we will take care of it, all he needs to do is change and he can leave. He then stood up, looked at me for about 5 seconds then threw a punch. Landed on my collar bone/neck. He stayed due to the new charges of assault but was later released to the hospital (like i said he should have never been here anyways). Then 4 months later the prosecution dropped those charges.
Jail wasnt the place to get him help but he was threatening the ambulance crew on the street because they were taking him to the hospital that could help him instead of the one he wanted to go to. Thats the reason he was originally arrested and booked.
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u/aLonerDottieArebel 19d ago edited 18d ago
Medic here. Can confirm. Our city is trying to implement this type of thing and I am fucking terrified. Social workers are great but who is going to protect me when the excited delirium patient slips out of their restraints in the back of my ambulance?
A lot of people don’t realize generally social workers evaluate patients over the phone and are the ones who CALL 911.
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u/RedditSucksBallsack 18d ago
Exactly I’ve had plenty of experience with mentally challenged and mentally ill people in a caring capacity and the light can switch in the blink of an eye if something happens to set them off. And getting physical (unfortunately it has to happen sometimes) just amplifies that until someone finds a way to calm them down
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u/WilliamWaters 19d ago
Stop being rational, we hate cops on this website
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u/[deleted] 19d ago
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u/PhotonResearch 19d ago edited 19d ago
10 years ago it was an arrestable offense to film police, 10 years after that was addressed as being unconstitutional half the country wants to alter or dismantle the entire policing system
100% correlation to unaffected people being able to see it with their own eyes
The other half of the country is still moving the goal posts on saying its each resident’s fault, still requiring more evidence, or relying on the reported issues being too few compared to the number of police encounters, despite that in every other field accountability is increased from singular incidents
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u/ZQuestionSleep 19d ago
Basically this is me. I'm a white, male, mid-thirties, Midwesterner (I actually live outside of Madison) and I now have a general disdain for cops. I've never personally had a terrible run-in, and nothing more serious than a couple of minor speeding tickets when I was younger and 1 time where I went off the road in a snow storm, but I have seen several dozens of incidents with my own eyes of cops being corrupt, to the point of killing people in cold blood. And 99.9% of the time, nothing happens, they completely get off.
Not only is all that horrible, but at no point is there a push by any sort of Police Union or industry group or anything to say, "The amount of videos we are seeing with completely unacceptable if not outright criminal behavior needs to be addressed." At best, we get a couple articles a year that have a side story about how one of the "good cops" simply tried to file a report that the brutalizing officer overstepped and that good cop is out on their ass, sometimes being threatened by the police themselves.
I unironically believe the whole "ACAB" because good cops truly don't exist, at least not for more than a day or two after trying to out the bad cops. Even cops that are just keeping their head down and just going along with it, telling themselves they're just trying to do good where they can (and maybe actually are), are a part of this rotten-to-the-core system and are perpetuating it. Same as Catholics and other known abusive, but powerful, institutions.
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u/Zergzapper 19d ago
Its really interesting that mobsters/gangsters can be charged with conspiracy charges but cops can't, despite it being a very similar set of circumstances. But of course this is because the cops exist to defend an uneven power structure and the wealth of property of those at the top of that structure.
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u/PhotonResearch 19d ago
LAPD got hit with the RICO act 20 years ago, in this century, approved by Federal judge
It can happen, nothing substantial came of it though
There are still waaaaaay too many challenges for accountability or deterrents
and there are over 15,000 police departments in the US, this piecemeal approach cannot work
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u/Sufficio 19d ago
One of the hardest parts for people who've only personally had safe cop experiences is accepting that one hugely fundamental part of your whole world view and upbringing is absolutely not true. That view is seeing cops as good guys, just like paramedics and firefighters- that "cops only exist to help us" which they don't realize carries the implicit statement of, "so if the cop isn't helping you/is actively harming you, you must have done something to justify it". I can imagine it must genuinely be difficult to accept for some- it can require you to flip your entire understanding of society thus far on its head.
When you and your family have only had safe experiences with police, you're taught that they're the good guys valiantly defending us from all the criminals. The fantasy that society is actually simple and fair if you just "follow the rules" is too comforting for some people to even consider letting go, especially when all they've experienced is that façade of fairness.
I'm grateful that the digital age has worked to combat this, I absolutely agree with you that for a lot of people, it takes seeing it with their own eyes to actually begin understanding. I had the experience of a cop showing complete apathy and negligence toward my life and safety as a kid, so I was 'lucky' in the sense that my eyes were forced opened much earlier than some. I'm so grateful for these new programs with people actually educated on mental illness. It's definitely a step in the right direction.
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u/PhotonResearch 19d ago
The biggest thing to understand is that its the same cops. When they go to “that part of town” they act like Terminator or Judge Dredd. When someone from “that part of town” comes to your neighborhood the same cop is harassing them and supported by the whole neighborhood.
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u/LongjumpingMessage36 19d ago
Similar here. White, male, tall, mid 30s, work in consulting. Pretty much the textbook definition of privileged white dude.
I don't like to say ACAB, and I don't like to say I'm against police. I am really disgusted by a lot of the videos I've seen, and think a lot of police forces need to get dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up, and police unions need to be broken up. I went to a few BLM protests - really just walking down the street - and the crap I saw, which was pretty mild (shutting down public transit without warning so marchers couldn't get home before curfew, police kettling the marchers, pepper spraying pretty much immediately), has me really close to putting in my application for team "burn it down".
I truly believe that while ACAB is not literally correct - not all cops are corrupt or bad - the good ones are punished, and so it may as well be true. I'm getting closer and closer to it being true.
I've got friends more active in protesting, and they've had their phones, ipods, cash, and other things stolen by police. There's no accountability.
And this is in Boston. Fairly liberal place (or at least we like to think so).
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u/TC_ROCKER 19d ago edited 19d ago
everyone today has a video camera in their pocket, which has lead to more instances of showing outright police abuse. It has always happened, but now it is being filmed and going viral online...
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u/SpacecraftX 19d ago
How much training does it take to not shoot or taze the suicidal kid to death for holding the knife they cut themselves with?
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u/[deleted] 19d ago
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u/ktmrider119z 19d ago edited 19d ago
Man, cops are usually atrocious shots, arrogant, and act dangerously at ranges. Any time i catch a whiff of a cop at my shooting range, i immediately pack my shit and move as far away as possible for my own safety
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u/subvertet 19d ago edited 19d ago
Police forces are the only "public" institution that have not been de-funded since the neoliberal turn in the 80's (they have actually increased their funding many times over since). Should we hate cops? Not necessarily. Should we hate the institution of policing, yes. Because it serves the interests of a specific class. Everything else is PR.
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u/broken_arrow1283 19d ago
Umm and the other way around too. Cops have seen some shit. Anyone who says otherwise is completely ignorant.
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u/mightbeelectrical 19d ago
I’m sure an officer will take well to “hang back”
Where’s that video of an officer arresting a firefighter? Circulates reddit every month or so
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u/Kradget 19d ago
That honestly makes sense, as long as the circumstances under which it becomes a law enforcement issue are clearly understood and followed (e.g. the social worker makes the call).
Probably still not perfect, but a damn good step.
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u/TedTheGreek_Atheos 19d ago
Except when they shoot the social worker.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Charles_Kinsey?wprov=sfla1
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u/xxSuperBeaverxx 19d ago
100%, I'm personally against the "send a social worker instead of an officer" idea, it seems very dangerous to me, but if they sent an officer who goes through the same training as the social worker with that social worker, I would be fully confident.
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u/Fedora200 19d ago
I also think many social workers themselves would want an officer there too. They aren't miracle workers that can just magically diffuse any situation instantly.
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u/lgoasklucyl 19d ago edited 19d ago
Having worked in intensive in home family therapy, with the state's Department of Children and Families, and in multiple residential/group home settings: social workers are already being sent into profoundly volatile community-based settings on the daily, the vast majority of the time without police support.
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u/Fedora200 19d ago
But wouldn't it be an improvement to have someone on standby to help in case a situation does go wrong? It's not like the cop would be a shadow to the worker, but maybe they're just outside the room/house so they're ready to step in. And I would imagine that a situation such as a home family therapy session and a 911 call would be drastically different in most cases.
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u/lgoasklucyl 19d ago
You might want to tag along on some on home family sessions! Many become volatile to the extent that further emergency contact is warranted, usually in terms of risk for/escalating inter-family violence. We're talking the last intervention for children/adolescents at risk for out of home legal/behavioral health placement.
I would never argue having an officer on standby wouldn't be at least somewhat helpful/reassuring, though that certainly tacks on some tension for sure. Merely countering the assumption that mental health workers aren't already called upon daily to independently resolve conflict which could otherwise easily result in harm of self or others.
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u/cciv 19d ago
Problem is cost. You'd not only be hiring a bunch more social workers, you'd also be hiring a bunch more cops.
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u/AffectionateTitle 19d ago
I worked in this area of social work for 3 years and only about 30% of cases were violent and most of those we met in the ER or at a prison anyways.
The majority of people with mental health issues are nonviolent and just need help.
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u/brookleinneinnein 19d ago
Social Workers in WI require more education and training than police officers. So if we want to require that police have at least a bachelors, (a masters preferred) and 400 hours of on-the-job training, I’m all for it.
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u/GingerHero 19d ago edited 9d ago
Denver has two programs, one where social workers ride with police, and another where a social worker and paramedic respond together to nonviolent crises-type calls
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u/laffnlemming 19d ago
Eugene, Oregon pioneered this type of program at The White Bird Clinic. The response program is called CAHOOTS.
It's been a huge success for years and is a model for programs like Denver's.
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u/canhasdiy 19d ago
Awesome to know it's becoming more commonplace; I think if we took such programs nationwide and put real effort into fixing, upgrading and modernizing our mental health system, we could slash crime statistics and see a boost in economic prosperity.
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u/laffnlemming 19d ago
Have I ever told you that I blame Ronald Reagan for dismantling the mental health system in the USA?
No? Well, I do. His misguided notions really fucked things up.
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u/NardCarp 19d ago
So you think we should go back to just rounding up mentally ill people and holding them against their will?
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u/avoidancebehavior 19d ago
Well... some of them. Consent becomes complicated in those situations, but it's better than leaving them to die in the street with no access to treatment. Ideally the conditions and treatment would be a lot better than previously, and the bar for involuntary institutionalization would be relatively high.
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u/NardCarp 19d ago
Except they aren't dying in the streets, they are living the life they choose, you just don't like seeing it
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u/avoidancebehavior 18d ago
Do you like seeing it?? No, I don't like seeing clearly unstable people struggle to navigate the world and take care of themselves, sometimes failing to do so. The world should be more accommodating of some things, and not all people with serious problems need inpatient treatment. We need better systems in place for the whole spectrum of needs.
A disproportionate number of homeless people have at least one serious mental illness, and yes, they do die in the streets regularly. And yes, it's upsetting to see (what appears to be) an untreated schizophrenic person who is clearly not able to care for themselves wandering around the street talking to their hallucinations. I've seen this a few times in a few different cities, and it always bothers me that I can't do anything. Those are among the types of people who need to be taken in and cared for until they can transition back to independent living.
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u/Iz-kan-reddit 18d ago
Some of them, yes. Involuntary commitment can take the form of many different levels though.
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u/SteamSteamLG 19d ago
This absolutely makes the most sense. Have someone who is better trained to read body language and deescalate the situation and an officer there in case something goes wrong.
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u/Bovinius__Cudd 19d ago
The program is designed to REMOVE police from the equation entirely.
https://denver.cbslocal.com/2021/07/09/star-program-mental-health-paramedic-police/
STAR has gained recognition for responding to 1,300 calls over the past six months and never needing to call for a police officer for backup. Sailon says it’s about the mentality of the STAR team as they respond to specific calls.
The coolest part about it is that it's mostly helping homeless people. 68% of the calls assisted homeless people.
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u/Zombie_Hyperdrive 19d ago
They're really called STAR? They're gonna have to watch out for a Nemesis with a bazooka.
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u/cguess 19d ago
NYC recently finished a pilot program of this and it went well. They’re expanding it even. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/07/23/nyc-mental-health-911-pilot-program-harlem/8053555002/
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u/physchy 19d ago
Just start making buddy cop movies with one cop and one social worker
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u/CryptoNoobNinja 19d ago
We have this program in Toronto Canada called MCIT where officers and a social worker are sent out. It was started in 2000 and is going well.
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u/jimmyjrsickmoves 19d ago
Shit, the post yesterday where the cop has a panic attack and the EMS has to take control is evidence enough that someone should be there to help deescalate when things get tense.
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u/MoMedic9019 19d ago
In more than one instance of my EMS career, i’ve had to tell cops to either leave, or have had them removed by other officers to control a situation.
They escalate so much shit because they’ve felt disrespected.
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u/Jezebelle22 19d ago
Was just going to come here and say this, I’m glad Denver already thought that through!
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u/Blake1288 19d ago
I believe Longmont, CO is too. I did a ride along with them a year or so ago. There was a car with, if I recall, a LEO, EMT and mental health counselor.
Having been to those calls in a different state, is not always easy to handle. They’re all different. I’ve said it numerous times, they don’t train us for that. They tell you just to take them into custody and take them to the ER. Most of the time, they just want to talk. They’re having a rough patch and being an ear to them does more good than just sending them to the hospital.
That taking away their freedom, only for a few days, is something that should be looked at differently. There are of course various gray areas, but the way I was trained to handle those and the way I actually handled them was much different.
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u/Klpincoyo 19d ago
Only twice has an officer been called to the scene and the STAR program has now answered 1600 calls. It is a great addition to the city!
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u/Free_Charity9741 19d ago edited 19d ago
I literally work with the exact team that's starting this in Madison!
It's great, but also unfortunate as it's a pilot program and really has to prove its own worth right now. For example, I meet with the specialist team because I work in homeless services, but will never end up using them because they're confined to a very specific police district that doesn't cover where the majority of unhoused people are staying.
I'm really, really hoping it expands in the future. It makes a world of a difference for many of my clients just to be approached by someone, anyone, not in uniform.
It's also worth saying that there are tons of social service and outreach workers who basically already do this - regardless of training. I'm hopeful that finally there will be trained progressionals who can be paid for this important work, so the brunt doesn't fall on everyone else within the system who is doing it... sometimes poorly.
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u/ReadItWithSarcasm 19d ago
Can you fill us in on why there isn’t a team of specialist/cop that gets dispatched?
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u/Free_Charity9741 19d ago
What do you mean by specialist/cop? There sort-of is, I believe! So - before this program (and still, as it's ongoing) there are "mental health" cops that are pulled from a specific list of officers serving in different areas that attend to mental health calls/emergencies (usually, in my experience, relating to someone threatening their own life). These can be similar to "wellness checks." That's already been in place in Madison.
This team uses more than just officers, but trained mental health professionals better equipped to respond to emergencies and de-escalate a variety of situations. They aren't in uniform, and will not be armed, but there are still a few "mental health" specific officers who are a part of the team.
It feels uncertain (at least to me) how the program will work with Madison's largest mental health crisis provider, Journey Mental Health. Currently, besides 911 someone or those close to them is able to call a crisis line that can attempt to assess a mental health emergency and provide that person (or people) with resources: i.e. do they need a wellness check? Should 911 be called? Should Journey Mental Health send a crisis worker? Does this person need to be referred to inpatient psychiatric, or the hospital?
A huge gap currently is that the easiest and only way for people to get to a variety of county resources - like the county funded psychiatric system (in-patient) or to use detox services - is THROUGH police intervention (or the hospital). Obviously, it's easy to see why this is inaccessible and unwanted for many people in a crisis, and unbelievably costly to tax-payers.
I'm hopeful that, at the very least, having a team of better trained progressionals to make these referrals and serve as a bridge to other resources will make those in crisis feel more comfortable using them. It's a gross feeling having to tell people - Oh, you want emergency mental health care? You either have to go the E.R. or have armed police show up at your door.
This new program is a good start.
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u/ReadItWithSarcasm 19d ago
Maybe the article was written poorly… but it seems to suggest a “specialist” trained in dealing with social health issues is sent INSTEAD of a cop (trained in policing).
Sending a specially trained cop seems like a good idea. But, will they be armed to protect themselves/others?
There have been plenty of “wellness checks” that have gone awry. I do hope that something can be done to keep people from being arrested/killed needlessly.
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u/Free_Charity9741 19d ago
Oh, I get your question. Yes, a few specialists (not cops) are sent - but there are specific cops who work with the specialists as well; and are a part of the team. My impression is that they're there for support and back up, but not direct interference.
There are already mental health cops; this is a pilot program that will hopefully faze out the use of cops... or at least, that's what's ideal in my mind. I completely agree with you.
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u/lexirmay 19d ago
That’s what responded to me in Dodge County, Wisconsin! I was suicidal to the point of plans and called a help line last minute. The cop that came (not a large city btw, 15k people) was specifically trained for mental health crisis’s, and took pride in it. It was amazing to have not just some cop but someone who actually seemed to care and was trained to help me. There should always be someone like that on duty for police departments.
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u/zergrush2 19d ago
I loved loved loved Madison in the summer. Y'all have a very cute town. Thanks for making me feel at home.
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u/HGpennypacker 19d ago
Not much better than Madison in the summer.
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u/HappyDentalHygienist 19d ago
Downtown Milwaukee in the summer! So many festivals usually. I'm biased though. They're both great :)
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u/Choui4 19d ago
It's great, but also unfortunate as it's a pilot program and really has to prove its own worth right now. For example, I meet with the specialist team because I work in homeless services, but will never end up using them because they're confined to a very specific police district that doesn't cover where the majority of unhoused people are staying.
I get the funny feeling this pilot program, which appears to not have all the legs to stand on, is going to be more of a sacrificial lamb. Used as a token for "why we need police".
Do you feel like this is a setup? Or, are you a less cynical person, than I?
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u/Free_Charity9741 19d ago
Oh, you're totally right to be cynical. My gut feeling is less "sacrificial lamb" and more "we will never actually expand this program beyond the richer, tourist-y, campus filled downtown area because our only intent is to invisibilize unhoused and/or mentally ill people instead of servicing them."
I'm also worried about turnover. My instinct is that these professionals won't be paid very well; and there's horrible turnover generally in social services and community mental health in Madison. So yeah, it's a bit destined to have its struggles!
As always, it's like - the city and county have little interest in funding long-term solutions, including preventative ones, to mental health care, but will throw money at damage control to "clean up" the downtown area and reap the rewards for being progressive.
As you can tell, I'm also a cynic. But honestly, Madison is messed up to shit, so I'm hopeful and grateful right now as well. It's a complicated feeling.
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u/Choui4 19d ago
Ya, thats exactly what I'm feeling [insert Marge groan]. I really hope I'm incorrect but it seems so much like this will be used like a trophy kill AGAINST police reform.
Thank you for all your hard work you're doing. I'd love updates if you get a chance for it. I will be following this case study closely and your insight, for everyone, would be invaluable.
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u/feltcutewilldelete69 19d ago
In Portland, it’s not really going well, but we have a number of complicating factors. The police has less than half the officers they used to have, and the city is getting lawless as fuck. They don’t even respond to active burglaries or street racers shutting down a bridge. They only show up quickly if someone is getting killed. If not, then you get to wait for 4 hours. Or never.
As a result, they don’t even show up to these gray area calls where a crazy person is losing their shit. EMS workers are hung out to dry, trying to decide between our personal safety and patient care. We’re not wrestlers, we don’t have the training or experience to disarm and restrain a violent person.
So the crisis team shows up to a call where someone is losing their shit, throwing glass, whatever. They call for an ambulance. No police show up. Everyone shrugs at each other and then clears the scene after doing nothing.
And before you people start replying with “well this is what happens when you defund the police”… just realize that it’s more complicated than that. The police here only lost like 5% of their quarter-Billion dollar budget. They tear gassed BLM protesters for months, but when literal armed white supremacists march in the streets, the police don’t even show up. They’re being petulant children because people wanted to increase their accountability. And now the citizens are suffering.
Anyway, I hope the program goes well in your city. I’m sure your police are more helpful than ours.
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u/lesterd88 19d ago
I’m so torn on this. Background, EMT in paramedic school.
Pros, I see so many psych calls that all they need is someone that understands that they’re struggling, and 9 times out of 10 they get two EMS providers, a local cop and county Sheriffs Deputy showing up at their door with vehicles lit up like Christmas trees. It’s intimidating and scary for them I’m certain. Those cases are absolutely perfect for this kind of setup. Especially when the providers are there as specialists and not generalists. The outcomes have to be overwhelmingly positive.
But then there’s the con side. Once you’re on scene you essentially have what you have for support. God forbid one of these calls is a trap for a provider (it sadly happens), or the situation escalates and suddenly your patient gets violent. Calling for support is good and all but they’re likely minutes away if you’re lucky. That risk to provider safety is the kind of thing that’ll keep you up at night. I’ve been lucky, beyond lucky honestly, that the most my sketchier calls have ever escalated to was needing chemical sedation and we had multiple people on scene to assist. This kind of thing happens and the escalation is so rapid. It can be one sentence they’re fine, the next they’re ready to fight and hellbent on hurting someone. Training says retreat and wait for help but time is a luxury in those situations. You just don’t always have it.
I still feel like blended response makes the most sense. Stage law enforcement a block or two away on the quiet, that way if the need for help is there they can get to them in a matter of seconds to a minute, but the patient isn’t alarmed by their presence.
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u/ProdbyThiiird 19d ago
I’m just warning you all on both political spectrums. This is going to be a mess at first. A lot of good too. But much needed feedback will have to be analyzed and innovated. Then you will see proper forms of this.
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u/ProdbyThiiird 19d ago
We need good cops and we need just as many non violent specialist services like this. The fact that some can’t recognize that is pretty frustrating. More webcams and better training for cops. More non violent specialist positions created and certifications developed. Strict standards for them too so the role can’t be abused. The talent and compassion is out there. Maybe that’s radical of me to say. But we need to incentivize good/smart people to do the hard work.
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u/4yelhsa 19d ago
How will they determine if a situation is dangerous or not?
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u/Johansenburg 19d ago
This is why I don't think it should be "instead of" but they should go with the police officer. There are a number of times that these start off non-violent, and then become violent. Not all of them are the police's fault, either. The specialist should be given as much time as they need to resolve things in a non-violent manner. However, an officer should be nearby at all times to get the specialist to safety and to detain the aggressor should things change.
I'd like to see dedicated units to this. This way a specialist and an officer are partnered up and work together. This way they are always with one another so there's no waiting around for one or the other to get to the scene or anything like that.
I'm sure logistics make that difficult, though.
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u/Prestigious_Hawk_705 19d ago
There are places in Canada where police in Alberta (local and RCMP) have specific units with a police/MH nurse combo example
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u/Johansenburg 19d ago
Canada clearly stole that idea from my brain, and I want to be compensated for giving them such a brilliant idea.
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u/Firecrotch2014 19d ago
The problem with that is the cops are the ones who sometimes escalate a non violent encounter into a violent one. The cops have to let the specialists do their job and deescalate the situation. If they go in there guns blazing ready to arrest even with specialists on the site then they could turn a situation where someone could be talked down into one where someone winds up dead. And its not always the person who they are called about that gets killed. Somehow police departments are going to have to break through to these cops that they are not the end all be all judge jury and executioner.
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u/Johansenburg 19d ago
I feel like I covered that. I mentioned that specialists need to be given all the time they need to resolve the situation peacefully. I can expand on that further by stating that a cop shouldn't enter the conversation unless asked for. The specialist should have a radio on them, the cop should wait in the car and be listening in to everything. Should the specialist say anything, be it a phrase, code word, "Hey, cop, get out here" whatever, only then should the cop get involved.
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u/Firecrotch2014 19d ago
I mean yes ideally that is how it should work. You and I both know there are some cops who are going to be like "I'm in charge here. You do as I say." Even if it's counterproductive to the situation. Its an ego trip for them. It's the same reason they can't be trusted in situations like this. When a mentally/psychologically impaired person won't comply with the cops demands the cops gets furious and escalates as previously mentioned turning a bad situation into a worse one. These are the kind of cops I'm talking about that these police departments have to get through to. Sometimes they are going to have to relinquish control to the specialists. Some cops can't handle that.
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u/Johansenburg 19d ago
And if there are procedures and safeguards in place, then those cops won't last long, because their partner isn't another cop, but instead is a de-escalation mental health specialist. Body cams and recorded conversation would be kept for these situations.
The cops you are talking about aren't the cops that would be placed on these calls. This hypothetical I'm discussing is a separate department. Not mandated positions, not traffic duty, specially trained individuals for mental health (the specialists), and non-lethal de-escalation. The cop here basically being the specialist's body guard. They aren't in charge.
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u/madpostin 19d ago
This is so incredibly naive. The cop is the one with the power in that partnership. 'Civilian'-police partnerships exist everywhere with the same logic fails in every single one of those: "oh, we'll hold them accountable and they simply won't be violent". Mayors, DAs, Judges. There's a reason cops get away with just about every shitty thing they do even though there are 'procedures and safeguards in place'. There were procedures and safeguards in place when Freddie Gray died (read: was murdered) in police custody, or when Breonna Taylor was shot (read: murdered) in her sleep.
You can spend all of the hot air you want making procedures and safeguards around cops, but by simply including them you're putting everyone at risk during these calls (and, if it's known that a cop will be present, will decrease the likelyhood that someone will call if they're going through some shit that could be solved with a professional via one of these calls.)
The moment you begin including cops is the moment you yield any sort of authority you have over the situation. Including cops is a stupid idea and it's why the current system sucks in the first place.
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u/DinoTsar415 19d ago edited 19d ago
then those cops won't last long, because their partner isn't another cop, but instead is a de-escalation mental health specialist. Body cams and recorded conversation would be kept for these situations. The cops you are talking about aren't the cops that would be placed on these calls.
This is an incredibly rosy view of the police. People film them doing shady and aggressive shit constantly and they only face real consequences after months of protests. If a specialist reports that the cop they are partnered with is consistently failing to allow them to do their work and escalating the situation, I'd bet all I got on who the department is going to fire. Or who the department is going to pressure the independent body that hires/fires specialist into firing, pressure which said independent body will inevitably bow to like they always do.
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u/Free_Charity9741 19d ago
This program does have police officers on standby, it just might not be the literal police officer approaching the person/group. Police are still very much involved.
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u/Bovinius__Cudd 19d ago
Police are always on standby for everyone. There is no special backup needed, nor available.
This program is designed to REMOVE police from the equation entirely - and has done so successfully in 100% of cases. Zero police involvement outside of 911 dispatch.
https://denver.cbslocal.com/2021/07/09/star-program-mental-health-paramedic-police/
STAR has gained recognition for responding to 1,300 calls over the past six months and never needing to call for a police officer for backup. Sailon says it’s about the mentality of the STAR team as they respond to specific calls.
The coolest part about it is that it's mostly helping homeless people. 68% of the calls assisted homeless people.
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u/Free_Charity9741 19d ago
Oh yeah, that's awesome - I'm talking about the Madison program! Not the Denver one! My apologies; that wasn't clear enough.
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u/mikeisreptar 19d ago edited 19d ago
Worked out well for my neighboring city. This happened last week.
Edit: The uplifting part of this story is no one (including the shooter) was injured.
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u/jaiagreen 19d ago
Often it's common sense. Someone ranting at people at a bus stop is unlikely to be dangerous but the situation needs to be dealt with.
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u/WhoThenDevised 19d ago edited 19d ago
You don't necessarily need a uniform to determine if a situation is dangerous or not. And some situations might not even become dangerous if the responder isn't (visibly) wearing a gun.
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u/Throwawayunknown55 19d ago
Uniforms themselves cause a lot of escalation in people with some mental issues I think.
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u/Bovinius__Cudd 19d ago
You understand what deescalate means in context. This thread is tiring me out.
THANK YOU.
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u/Kradget 19d ago
My guess is it's the same way they usually would. Someone threatening to jump off a bridge is probably not dangerous. Someone shouting and sitting in traffic is unlikely to be dangerous. Any time there's space and time to work with and no obvious threat to others, you can always withdraw and let things cool out a bit.
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u/thisisntarjay 19d ago
The report they receive.
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u/4yelhsa 19d ago
Eh. If you say someone is currently in the midst of a mental breakdown or something I'd consider that to be a highly mercurial situation. If they're sending people in there without any defenses how can they ensure they're safety?
I dont think you could only trust the initial reports to a certain degree.
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u/Cabbages24ADollar 19d ago
I’m not understanding… this seems to implicate that a bettter response is to send in our pseudo-military police officer with an authority complex to help deescalate a complex mental situation…
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u/xxSuperBeaverxx 19d ago
Maybe the solution is to train the officers better?
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u/Cabbages24ADollar 19d ago
Maybe that solution hasn’t been well received or applied. But it has been suggested for a long time.
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u/thisisntarjay 19d ago
If you're too scared to do the job, don't do the job. There is no world where you can ensure the safety of anyone whose job is to go in to dangerous situations and help people. That's a personal choice from the individuals who fulfill the need.
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u/alex3omg 19d ago
They probably show up and assess the situation and call for backup if needed, like any police call. Also there's no reason to believe these specialists won't be trained to deal with violent situations.
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u/Gnarbuttah 19d ago
Or we could send keep sending the police, therefore ensuring the situation is dangerous.
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u/treblewdlac 19d ago
Maybe wait for the results before categorizing this as uplifting. This has huge potential to end in disaster.
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u/NardCarp 19d ago
I am qualified to be one of these specialist and I can tell you right now it won't be long until they require an officer ride with them.
It's a good idea but not safe without police assistance
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u/im_chewed 19d ago
I hope they are starting a mental health fund for the dispatchers who have to make that decision on whether to send police or not. You know one day they won't send police and a specialist will get hurt. Then dispatcher has to live with it. I don't think this is fair to dispatcher to make that decision on a 911 call during a crisis.
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u/pawsitivelynotacat 19d ago
Dispatchers already send police out to mental health situations where someone’s likely to be hurt because the police do not have adequate training on mental health. I’ve talked to police officers who agree that they don’t know enough when they enter these situations, and that they’ve received one class on mental health typically. You can see the rate of violence from cops against the mentally ill online, it’s statistically the highest violence interaction from police.
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u/Free_Charity9741 19d ago
Agree. Also, a mental health officer does follow this team around. I see alot of confusion here in the comments. Police ARE involved in this pilot program.
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u/Tommyblockhead20 19d ago
I see alot of confusion here in the comments.
It might have something to do with the title saying police aren’t responding to those calls.
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u/JethroFire 19d ago
Yeah I don't get how they'd know before anyone was on scene. Hell, I've seen videos that started perfectly peaceful and the suspect randomly pulls a weapon.
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u/im_chewed 19d ago
It's what happens when the suits making decisions are so disconnected from the boots on the ground.
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u/Ithxero 19d ago
Dispatchers in this country need a lot of assistance.
Our dispatchers are the first to talk to someone and the last to even be thought about when it's all done.
A lot of them are overworked, underpaid, severely understaffed and have to deal with at least as much shit as any social worker, EMT, fireman or cop, repeatedly, all day, every day, every shift.
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u/wood3090 19d ago
Non violent calls can turn violent in a second.. they better have backup on standby for these people.
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u/MyHerpesItch 19d ago
Fuck that. Suicide mission is what that is. At least give the helpers a button or something.
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u/Fulcrous 19d ago edited 19d ago
As someone who used to do security and dealt with a variety of characters overnight, you're going to need police nearby. Sometimes - more often than not - it doesn't matter how professional and respectful you are, it will go FUBAR. I've had the unfortunate circumstance of nearly being stabbed. Fortunately I had backup nearby and was able to respond accordingly.
You do not want to be in that position without some form of self-defense.
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u/SimpsonStringettes 19d ago
Specialists are trained to know when things are getting out of hand, no?
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u/Fulcrous 19d ago edited 19d ago
I am definitely not a specialist so my answer comes from personal experience working with individuals with mental health at work.
My answer to your question is both yes and no. The problem is that a lot of the public expects these situations to be 100% predictable and responded to in a certain manner. How you deal with a situation involving those with mental health is constantly changing. You need to constantly adapt to what is happening and the situation can take a turn for the worse (and rarely for the better) in an instant. If you're not prepared for it, you're SoL.
I've had regulars who are agreeable suddenly turn on me. On the flipside, I've had first encounters where the person seems agreeable but will turn on you at the first opportunity.
When I nearly got stabbed, if I didn't have backup, I can assure you I would probably be dead as I was caught off guard despite taking all the necessary precautions. Despite having been in security, I don't think it will be any different - if not worse - for social workers. From what I know, based on job interviews and talks with social workers, interaction is done in controlled settings in a controlled environment resulting in reliable and predictable outcomes.
This is completely anecdotal but I am sure social workers would definitely prefer having an officer on standby should shit hit the fan.
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u/pixiefrogs 19d ago
I work with (occasionally) violent, mentally unwell patients and have to use physical restraint near enough every day too. We are trained in de-escalation techniques, have an acute awareness of precipitating triggers in psychotic episodes and treat all of our patients like people just having a bad day. I think any officer should have to take this sort of training because in reality, if I as a 26 year old woman can de-escalate a fully grown man having a schizophrenic episode without a weapon, so can they!
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u/Y_I_AM_CHEEZE 19d ago
Worked great in Portland untill after 6 months a cop answered to a call he wasn't supposed to in an area he wasn't supposed to be in and then shot and killed an unarmed homeless man instead of letting/waiting for mental health specialists to take care of the situation... so Portland started to Portland and threw more riots.. honestly the whole thing was going great untill the cop 100% fucked everything up by needlessly killing a homeless man that was actually known in the community to be a decent person.
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u/MagicDave131 19d ago
Eugene, OR has been doing that for years. Winds up costing the taxpayers way less, and it cuts way down on the number of mentally disturbed people being gunned down by trigger-happy cops.
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u/laffnlemming 19d ago
True. The White Bird Clinic pioneered this and the CAHOOTS program has been a success in the community for years:
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u/colin8651 19d ago
How many mentally disturbed people did Eugene police shoot per year before the program; on average?
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u/MagicDave131 19d ago
That might not be an answerable question, because lots and lots of police departments keep no records of how many people their officers shoot.
It is estimated that US cops kill about 3 people per day, but because of lots of missing data, that could be way low.
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u/Stupid_Comparisons 19d ago
Thats insanity. They'll keep our fucking fingerprints on file until we die, maybe even longer but they don't track shootings?
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u/lazyshmuk 19d ago
Why would they narc on themselves? If the police kept even an 80% complete portfolio on all their statistics, the general public would probably be very upset at spending, accidental shootings, intentional shootings, deaths, etc. per year.
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u/[deleted] 19d ago edited 18d ago
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u/mcbatcommanderr 19d ago
Social workers!
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u/[deleted] 19d ago edited 18d ago
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u/mcbatcommanderr 19d ago
That describes a lot of the social work profession lol. I would do it, but I would definitely be on edge because you can't predict the future. People can go from 0 to 100 in an instant. I'm going more toward crisis work myself, but I don't ky get any of these kinds of programs that aren't volunteer.
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u/quesoandcats 19d ago
It depends on what sort of social work you're doing. A social worker who works in government programs like DCFS or the VA probably works a normal 9-5, while a social worker who provides services in a hospital or group home setting probably has a much different schedule.
It's very common for new social service workers to work in programs or settings with weird hours because those shifts have the highest turnover. As you gain seniority and experience you qualify for better shifts or positions at agencies that only work during business hours, the same as most jobs that have day and night shifts.
I work in social services for an agency that provides medical case management in a residential and community setting. I work on the community setting side of things, so my hours are a very typical 9-5 M-F most of the time. Some of my colleagues do the same thing I do but they work exclusively with tenants in our residential housing units. Those buildings need a staff member on site 24/7 in case of an emergency, so that team staffs multiple shifts of case workers to ensure continuous coverage.
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u/rainbowolfe 19d ago
I don't think it's unrealistic to think there are social workers who would prefer a night shift over an early morning, or even midday shift. And they don't have to be scheduled randomly or on-call throughout the day, there can just... be consistent shifts? Just like the police? A morning, afternoon, night, and overnight shift, everyday.
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u/[deleted] 19d ago edited 18d ago
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u/rainbowolfe 19d ago
It looks like the pilot of this program is only going to have 2 mental health specialists to start with. So not enough of them long term, but enough to test the idea. And while they don't say the pay they'll receive, I wouldn't say this job isn't any higher-stress than any other in-field social work. Probably on the same level as working with abused or undocumented children.
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u/AffectionateTitle 19d ago
Yes it is. I worked in emergency services and social workers work in all levels of care nurses do. There are ER social workers and crisis triage social workers and weekend and evening social workers.
When I was triage I worked 11-7 and when I was clinical I would either work 6 hours or 3 cases from 8pm on.
Don’t doubt what you know nothing about. Social workers been doing this shit forever we are just now getting the funding and recognition that’s deserved.
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u/BioVizeer 19d ago
I mean, cops do it. If there's a need, people will step up to do it.
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u/OddAtmosphere6303 19d ago
I had to call 911 once when my partner tried to kill herself. The police came over with a shotgun in hand and skiffed her in front of everyone in my building. I just didn’t want her to die, but the police made everything worse because they thought she could kill two 200+ pound men with body armor and weapons with her 95 lb body and a shaving razor.
It really traumatized her and made things incredibly worse. This needs to be a nation-wide policy. The police are not properly trained to handle mental health issues.
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u/IJustWorkHere000c 19d ago
Nonviolent calls. Yeah. They’re aren’t violent until they are.
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u/madeforatc 19d ago
La county has initiated these programs and have been doing this well before 2018 for their field based services.
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u/-re-da-ct-ed- 19d ago
We have had Social Workers on these programs running for some time now throughout Canada. Fact is they 100% save lives.
Police are more trained to handle situations by force. The overall mentality needs to change ‐‐ but even then, it's nothing they will ever be able to train for compared to someone with 7 years of specialized education and a masters degree in a relative field behind them.
Can confirm: My spouse is a social worker who has worked in the COAST program. She's never had anything but good things to say about the particular police she had been Partnered with, that rather it is pretty understood by all involved that they are an asset to their team in deescalating situations that have so much potential to turn dangerous very quickly, without warning or a reason why.
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u/FlyingDutchman34 19d ago
The idea is fantastic in theory, and I think most people would support such a program. The problem is, mental health is unpredictable, these situations can take drastic turns on the flip of a switch. I hope the program works out, current police force isn’t trained to handle these situations well, but I’m worried those involved in this program won’t be trained or equipped well for the times these situations turn sour.
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u/laffnlemming 19d ago
Check this out. The CAHOOTS program has been a success in Eugene for years. They deescalate during the crisis:
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u/AtticusAimes 19d ago
They'll arm them next year
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u/Craig_orious 18d ago
100%. No one realizes how quickly the “non-violent mental health calls” devolve into a 6’4” 300lb guy smearing himself in his own shit ready throw down.
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u/AtticusAimes 18d ago
Lol, and guess who the social worker is going to call? That is, if they are able.
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u/CriticalEscapeBike 19d ago
That worked so well in Seattle: https://www.lawofficer.com/seattle-social-worker-stabbed-to-death-as-city-defunds-police/
Defend the Police!
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u/HeavySaucer 19d ago
Bullshit. This woman was the killers housing case manager. She wasnt responding to a call to 911, it was a scheduled meeting with him. This had nothing to do with "defunding the police".
FOH with this.
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u/LeoLaDawg 19d ago
Are there lots of "non-violent mental health calls" out that way? What happens if they turn violent?
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u/Free_Charity9741 19d ago
Police are involved in this program. They may not be the one literally approaching the person, but an officer (actually, a "mental health" officer - those with specific training) will be present/on standby.
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u/TC_ROCKER 19d ago
I made a post a while ago that seems to fit here:
Many people are under the impression that 'defund the police' means "NO MORE POLICE", not re-defining what the real goals are for police responsibilities.
I agree with Obama, the slogan sucks. It is totally misleading and should state the goals in a way that cannot be misunderstood. If you have to always correct people's perception of your slogan, you have the wrong slogan...
Right??
To me the ultimate goal is that a heavily armed & trained for street war combatant with a chip on his shoulder and itchy trigger finger does not have to show up to fill out paperwork at an auto accident, deal with a Karen arguing that her expired coupon should be accepted by a cashier, handle a complaint of a dog barking or 2 neighbors arguing about a tree branch too far over a fence, etc...
Every 911 operator and most police admit these are a waste of police time & resources, when there is real crime they could be attending to, or donuts...
The police force absolutely does need better training in dealing with the public and de-escalating a situation. Too many times it results in unnecessary death or injury or jail time and a ruined life when a simple situation is escalated by an untrained cop with an attitude.
A situation that did not need a trained to kill soldier to respond to what should have been handled peacefully and successfully by a trained professional...
Reform the Police!!
The fact that everyone now carries around a video camera has led to much more exposure, hatred and distrust of the police, and rightly so.
Police also need to be held accountable when they cross the line, a paid week behind a desk playing solitaire and no charges filed is a slap in the face to the victims and the public.
The people advocating for no police are taking it too far, we do need a properly trained police force, as well as trained professionals to respond to incidents where heavily armed and pissed off police are not needed.
The militarized police have too much responsibility and trained professionals can take away some of the pressure. They do need ongoing de-escalation training, as well as weapon handling training...
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u/eza50 19d ago
I just hope anyone criticizing this realizes these programs only exist because the police can’t be trusted not to kill someone going through a mental health crisis. Have autism? Who cares, here’s some lead.
On top of that, they collectively refuse to acknowledge that there’s a problem there, and refuse to make any changes to their murder issues. So before anyone gets all bent out of shape because of these programs, understand it’s because people tried to make changes and the police said no.
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u/DanceBeaver 19d ago
I've no doubt that the prevalence of guns in the population makes officers more stressed and more likely to fuck up.
You can literally have a traffic stop turn into a shootout in America. In my country they never think you'll have a gun so encounters like that are much more relaxed for everyone.
And no, I don't think America should make guns illegal. I'm just explaining you can't compare America to most other first world countries.
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u/[deleted] 19d ago
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