MBTA union says they will fight vaccine mandate

[u/737900ER]

https://www.facebook.com/carmensunion589/posts/4409004222485823

[u/VMP85]

What is their end goal here? Do they not want their members protected from COVID by getting the vaccine?

[u/Minimum_Committee_90 → u/VMP85]

they want their members to be safe but they also want a bargaining for something in return is what it sounds like

[u/Octagon_Ocelot → u/Minimum_Committee_90]

exactly. like when the two firefighters died in that restaurant fire years back and the autopsy leaked showing one was legally drunk and the other had cocaine in his system... and then another firefighter was busted weeks thereafter smoking a joint in the fire truck... the union still fought drug testing.. because they wanted goodies.

[u/mtgordon → u/Minimum_Committee_90]

What’s in it for them: the union members who aren’t stupid are protected from those who are. That ought to be enough.

[u/jojenns → u/mtgordon]

“Whats in it for them” is exactly what the union is asking , your answer isnt enough obviously

[u/SlothofDespond → u/Minimum_Committee_90]

Yup, basically how unions work. Want me to do something even if it's necessary and for my own good? Fuck you, pay me. In this case though, they're in scum of the earth territory.

[u/mhscout → u/VMP85]

Ultimately, it's a bargaining chip to be used to get something they want.

It's not that they are ultimately opposed to the vaccine, but if they will give up members rights to choose not to get it, they will want something in return.

[u/taketombo → u/VMP85]

I think it’s more that -to the best of my memory, and I’m not going to go,digging through the contract docs to confirm- the states “best and final offer” to the 2018-2021 contract that ended up in arbitration was a 0% raise in 2019, a 0% raise in 2020, a 0% raise in 2021, eliminating the death benefit (a small but immediate payout to a surviving spouse) are removing that termination had to be “for cause” … basically making all worker (including the carmens‘ union) “at will.”

Arbitration ended weeks before the contract did for some of the unions, others had the 3 year contract period end without ever having had a contract. If it got resolved the state was all “ok, so that’s your salary now, but we don’t owe you back pay for The three years without a contract.” o_0 LoL no. (we got back pay. That’s standard.)

So, at this point, my union (and probably 589?) is 6 weeks into FY22, and once again contract less. I think it’s a foolish point to negotiate on - as it’s something you should want for your workers - but I also see where they’re coming from. It’s a rare moment the state wants something from the unions, and even if everyone in my bargaining unit is vaccinated, it would be remiss of leadership to not try to get us something for it.

[u/DumbshitOnTheRight → u/VMP85]

Money is their goal.

[u/TotallyFarcicalCall → u/DumbshitOnTheRight]

Good.

[u/ik1nky → u/[deleted]]

It's not experimental.

[u/Conan776 → u/ik1nky]

Do you just not know what the word means?

[u/vox_leonis → u/Conan776]

As someone who works in healthcare, I don’t think you know what the phrase “experimental medical procedure” actually means. If you’re referring to the EUA, that’s fine, but then you might want to address that instead (if you’re interested in being accurate rather than just inflammatory)

Also, don’t complain about downvotes, my man. It just looks sulky and childish.

[u/Conan776 → u/vox_leonis]

OK, I'll bite. Why do you think that I don't know what the phrase means?

[u/vox_leonis → u/Conan776]

Because you’re not using it correctly. It doesn’t fit this context. I even suggested a more accurate angle for your argument (full FDA approval is expected imminently but you’d still have an accurate argument to stand behind at this moment anyway).

I don’t agree with you but I at least get what you’re trying to say and pointing you in a defensible direction. How much more help do you need?

[u/Conan776 → u/vox_leonis]

You don't agree with me that this is why the union is fighting this? OK, why do you think the union is fighting this? I honestly can't think of a more likely explanation, but I'm all ears.

[u/vox_leonis → u/Conan776]

As a bargaining tool, possibly. “Give something to get something” can be a very effective tactic when the administration has their back to the wall. Politically speaking, it would be a smart move if they have any outstanding issues with their management, work environment, hours/wages, etc.

Edit: I’m honestly not sure why you’re being so sassy about this; I’m not attacking you. I’m disagreeing with you that it would be their argument because it’s not an accurate or effective argument. They would more likely point to the EUA as other unions have, and demand the mandate be pending full FDA approval.

[u/yourm0m1 → u/[deleted]]

Is that like going to school where immunizations are required to get an education to be hired for said job?

[u/Conan776 → u/yourm0m1]

Experimental immunizations? Where is that?

[u/jayembeisme → u/[deleted]]

Your positing a debunked, irrational claim on their behalf, without providing any source showing it’s possibly what the MBTA is thinking. Without having that source, it stands to reason that this is your sincerely held debunked, irrational belief. A claim that warrants ridicule to the person presenting it. The downvotes are the manifestation of that ridicule.

[u/Conan776 → u/jayembeisme]

Why do people ask questions if they don't actually want sincere answers? Fine, just continue circle jerking your anti'union strawmen then.

[u/jayembeisme → u/Conan776]

What makes your answer sincere? And what part of my actual sincere response to your question, re: downvotes, comes across as anti-union circlejerking? I’m quite pro-union, a member of a very active, progressive union, and have several friends and neighbors employed by the MBTA.

[u/mhscout → u/[deleted]]

Have mercy on us and on the whole world.

[u/SpookyTerrence → u/[deleted]]

They’re also, like, the highest paid ‘public’ employees in the country.

[u/WinsingtonIII → u/SpookyTerrence]

MBTA drivers?

The highest paid public employees in the country are the SEC college football coaches making millions, an MBTA bus driver doesn’t make millions, believe it or not.

[u/SpookyTerrence → u/WinsingtonIII]

Oh gee, sorry I thought we were comparing jobs one to one. While we’re at it I guess we should bring up the senate, health officials, and our overpaid police officers abusing overtime?

I didn’t realize I had to be so specific… I thought it was implied.

But now that you mention it, MBTA bus drivers get paid $50,000 a year, 52% higher than the national median, higher than any other city in the country, and on top get countless benefits from healthcare to pension and incredible job security.

[u/WinsingtonIII → u/SpookyTerrence]

You said they were the highest paid public employees in the country, which is a bold claim and clearly a false statement. Why are you surprised people are questioning an inaccurate statement?

Also, how is 50,000 a year a high wage for the Boston area? It really isn’t. Of course it’s higher than bus drivers in Alabama, the cost of living is significantly higher here.

I have plenty of gripes with the reliability and service of the T, but you’re not really proving your claim here. And I have a hard time getting mad about someone making 50k in the Boston area.

[u/CaligulaBlushed → u/SpookyTerrence]

50,000 is not a high wage at all when you consider the cost of living in Boston. That doesn't get you a one bedroom.

[u/SpookyTerrence → u/CaligulaBlushed]

It’s high enough to put you in the top quartile of income for residents. Lot of out of touch college students here.

[u/pantan → u/SpookyTerrence]

So you're saying you think paying a bus driver 50k is too much.

[u/mckatze → u/SpookyTerrence]

If you click through that site a little more you'll find the MTA has an average salary of ~$72,000 per year for bus drivers here and over 60k for SEPTA here and NJ Tranist has $59,264 here so I don't know where you're getting highest in the country.

But also this is indeed and the information pools are really low.

[u/Recent_Record → u/SpookyTerrence]

That's not more than NYC which is comparable cost of living.

[u/jojenns → u/SpookyTerrence]

How dare they get a decent wage!

[u/BostonFoliage → u/[deleted]]

Unions = good. Antivaxx = bad. How can this be? Confused.

taxtherich

defundthepolice

[u/nano_byte]

With the amount of mbta workers I see daily and saw at the height of the pandemic who just wouldn't wear a mask, this doesn't surprise me

Plus there was a bunch of them on Twitter who tried to bully anyone who tried to report mbta workers without masks

[u/nano_byte → u/[deleted]]

The same way people bully anyone on the internet.

[u/ARR3223 → u/nano_byte]

But how do they bully you...? Just block them or log off...how are a bunch of idiot Gen X MBTA rightoids seriously impacting anyone...? Lol

[u/nano_byte → u/ARR3223]

"Tried" is the operative word here lol bc I did that

[u/ARR3223 → u/nano_byte]

Fair enough lol. We're all adults though, no one is bullying anyone, especially not technologically challenged rightoids

[u/_Neoshade_ → u/nano_byte]

So like what, like try to hurt their feelings?

You’re an uninteresting person who will never amount to anything in life. You will seek out challenge and better yourself, but ultimately just waste your time playing catch-up to everyone else who doesn’t have the disadvantage of being you. People only gravitate towards you out of pity or to make themselves feel better about their own inequities. All of your relationships are transactional. You have poor taste in furniture.

[u/nano_byte → u/_Neoshade_]

Yeah that's an example of it. Weird way to go about it though

[u/TotallyFarcicalCall → u/[deleted]]

All tools of the loser.

[u/bryter_layter_76]

The T has like 30 unions, BTW.

[u/itsonlyastrongbuzz]

Are they anti-seatbelt too?

[u/Conan776 → u/itsonlyastrongbuzz]

Just passenger seatbelts.

[u/MrFusionHER → u/[deleted]]

Seatbelts don't ALWAYS save your life. And if they do it can lead to chronic neck and back problems...

Sorry you walked right into this and it's still a perfect metaphor.

[u/itsonlyastrongbuzz → u/[deleted]]

Let’s ignore the fact that your crayon logic is completely made up.

Keeping with the seatbelt metaphor, imagine that you buckling up your seatbelt can not only protect yourself, but prevent injury to everyone in all the rest of the cars on the road.

[u/sagenumen]

Interesting, since the Union was initially complaining about not being given preferential access to the vaccine and also that an employee vaccination site was slow to open.

[u/StandardForsaken]

Well that's fucking stupid.

[u/dcgrey]

Like, I understand the principle that a union never wants to have its members told what they can and can't do without negotiating something in return, but they're so on the wrong side of this. I haven't been on the T since March 2020 after it being my mode of commuting for, shoot, seventeen years now, and I'm looking at biking* instead of the bus for when I go back to work in person next month because I don't trust the people on the bus. Now I know I can't trust the driver?

*Granted, actuarially, I'm probably more likely to get hurt on my bike than by Covid, but I can't spread a car door to my kid and his classroom.

[u/incruente]

Why?

[u/737900ER → u/incruente]

The best case scenario is that they don't want a mandate unless they get paid to show their vax cards.

[u/incruente → u/737900ER]

What if they believe in bodily autonomy? Perhaps they want to ensure there is a religious exemption? Or they are concerned about the structure of the mandate?

[u/JaesopPop → u/incruente]

What about others rights to not be exposed to a deadly illness? The people who don’t want to be responsible can be the ones to stay home.

[u/incruente → u/JaesopPop]

I'm not saying that these people are in the right. I'm asking for more information, and acknowledging that it's a complicated situation.

[u/JaesopPop → u/incruente]

The “bodily autonomy” thing is not a complicated situation is my point. If your choice regarding your body autonomy puts people at risk, then it is not simply a matter of “bodily autonomy”.

[u/incruente → u/JaesopPop]

The “bodily autonomy” thing is not a complicated situation is my point. If your choice regarding your body autonomy puts people at risk, then it is not simply a matter of “bodily autonomy”.

Is that an absolute principle?

[u/JaesopPop → u/incruente]

It’s reality. Someone opting to put others at risk is not just a matter of body autonomy. If someone wants to stay home and seclude themselves and not engage in modern medicine, then by all means - power to them. But wanting to work in a public role and wanting to be able to expose others to a serious illness isn’t a matter of “bodily autonomy”.

[u/incruente → u/JaesopPop]

It is a matter that has bodily autonomy as a factor. It isn't the ONLY factor, but I never claimed it was.

[u/JaesopPop → u/incruente]

It’s an irrelevant factor in this discussion. Working with the public means not putting the public in danger. If you want to make a different choice about your health, or lack thereof, then you should not be interacting with the public.

[u/Conan776 → u/incruente]

Is it possible to buy stock in the Church of Christ Scientist? They are going to be packing the pews at this rate.

[u/oneMadRssn → u/incruente]

Perhaps they want to ensure there is a religious exemption?

Wtf is a religious exception? It literally a made-up thing.

[u/incruente → u/oneMadRssn]

Wtf is a religious exception? It literally a made-up thing.

All human constructs are made up. Languages, laws, vaccine mandates are all made up things.

[u/KTMZD410 → u/oneMadRssn]

Freedom of religion is kind of a thing in the constitution

[u/oneMadRssn → u/KTMZD410]

Freedom of religion is not religious exceptions. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Nowhere does it say your religion gives you an excuse to ignore whatever responsibility you have.

[u/KTMZD410 → u/oneMadRssn]

Is it really a responsibility if 99.9% of working aged people survive a coronavirus. The vaccine doesnt even prevent the spread of variants as proven by Oxford University this week.

[u/oneMadRssn → u/KTMZD410]

Yes, doing a thing that takes 30 minutes and costs nothing to save even a single life is worth it and is a responsibility. Most religions would agree btw. Next question.

[u/geffe71 → u/KTMZD410]

Show me in the Bible where wearing a mask has to do with religion

I’ll show you a bunch about caring for others

[u/KTMZD410 → u/geffe71]

Many more religions then Christianity.

[u/geffe71 → u/KTMZD410]

Ok, show me where in the many books it says

[u/KTMZD410 → u/geffe71]

There are thousands of small religions with no associated text worldwide.

[u/riski_click → u/KTMZD410]

but there are thousands more of them that have specific rituals involving mask usage to protect others.

[u/itsonlyastrongbuzz → u/KTMZD410]

And that itself has limitations.

Religious Exemption isn’t a cheat code to avoid obligations.

[u/KTMZD410 → u/itsonlyastrongbuzz]

People don't owe anything or have to explain anything to anyone. Blows my mind people are forcing help on others who don't want it

[u/mkat5 → u/KTMZD410]

No ya nimrod. We want people to get vaccinated to limit spread, limiting spread does three important things. It lowers the amount of virus in the world reducing the possibility of mutations, it reduces the risk the virus will be spread to those with weak immune systems and those who’s actually cannot get the vax such as children and those with exceptional medical disorders. Finally, reducing the spread prevents hospitals from overflowing and keeps room in the icu for the rest of us.

[u/KTMZD410 → u/mkat5]

A vaccinated person spreads just as much virus as someone who is unvaccinated- Oxford University a few days ago

[u/itsonlyastrongbuzz → u/KTMZD410]

Yeah, no.

[u/mkat5 → u/KTMZD410]

This isn’t true, new studies show that vaccinated people with breakthrough infections can carry as much virus in their nose as those without the vaccine. Vaccinated people are less likely to get the virus in the first place, and less likely to have symptoms such as a cough that aide in the spread. Additionally, this whole discussion points to why we need the vax, to stop these variants that are breaking down immunity. If we don’t now, in a year it will be like day one of the pandemic again when a strain comes along that completely beats the vax.

[u/itsonlyastrongbuzz → u/KTMZD410]

If you don’t want to owe anyone anything or have to explain yourself to anyone, go buy a horse and live in the mountains.

If you want to be a member of society, that has obligations.

Blows my mind how people confuse freedom with anarchy.

[u/KTMZD410 → u/itsonlyastrongbuzz]

It really doesn't though. People can fend and think for themselves

[u/itsonlyastrongbuzz → u/KTMZD410]

You absolutely cannot fend for yourself in society.

You rely on everyone else.

[u/TouchDownBurrito → u/KTMZD410]

Sure, people can think for themselves that Elvis and hitler are alive living in a bunker all they want, doesn’t make their thoughts reality though.

[u/jayembeisme → u/KTMZD410]

Yes!! Thank you!! If you want to be a raging alcoholic who drives drunk on the regular, whose business is that but your own!! Amiright!!

[u/KTMZD410 → u/jayembeisme]

You are right! Stay clear of them if your smart and let the cops handle it.

[u/jayembeisme → u/KTMZD410]

Yes yes. That makes perfect sense, because intoxicated drivers are known for their level headed, consistent driving. They don’t drive erratically or blow through red lights and stop signs. It’s also easy to tell who the drunk drivers are to stay away from by glancing through windows, at night, going 40 mph on the opposite direction. I’ll simply give them space and all will be fine.

Truly insightful. /s

[u/Maxpowr9 → u/KTMZD410]

Religion isn't a pre-existing condition.

[u/riski_click → u/KTMZD410]

please explain your thought process as to how the constitution is relevant here.

[u/arch_llama → u/incruente]

No they're probably just a bunch of Dunning Kruger idiots.

[u/incruente → u/arch_llama]

No they're probably just a bunch of Dunning Kruger idiots.

Let me know if you come across anything resembling a reliable source. Speculation is both cheap and useless.

[u/arch_llama → u/incruente]

A reliable source on what? Are you asking for a peer reviewed study on how MBTA union leadership is so stupid they think they know better than experts? Lmfao 😂.

[u/TotallyFarcicalCall → u/arch_llama]

They'll fit right in in this sub then.

[u/RentAscout → u/incruente]

It's probably written into the contract about medical requirements and any precedent set today can be used against them later. It's just a guess.

[u/StandardForsaken → u/incruente]

Whomever is in charge is a dumbass right winger probably.

Probably makes anti-union posts online too.

[u/incruente → u/StandardForsaken]

Whomever is in charge is a dumbass right winger probably.

I'd rather have a proper source than a partisan guess.

[u/StandardForsaken → u/incruente]

maybe they are a anti vax hippie left winger with an essential oil side gig?

not sure people like that would work for the mbta, but i could be wrong.

[u/incruente → u/StandardForsaken]

maybe they are a anti vax hippie left winger with an essential oil side gig?

not sure people like that would work for the mbta, but i could be wrong.

I don't see the point in speculating on the matter.

[u/StandardForsaken → u/incruente]

it's fun. try it

[u/incruente → u/StandardForsaken]

To what end?

[u/StandardForsaken → u/incruente]

fun

[u/incruente → u/StandardForsaken]

I have zero expectation that it would be "fun" to encourage partisan division.

[u/StandardForsaken → u/incruente]

it's fun to make fun of it.

[u/Conan776 → u/incruente]

Karma?

[u/incruente → u/Conan776]

I do not value karma.

[u/jojenns → u/StandardForsaken]

You STILL dont know who the antivaxxers are around here huh?

[u/MrFusionHER → u/jojenns]

No cuz it could be anyone. You also don't know who they are...

[u/DarthNobody → u/StandardForsaken]

I dunno, I can't see a right-winger really fitting in well with union leadership. They kinda hate unions as a general rule.

[u/bobcottle → u/DarthNobody]

I've got many relatives in trade unions. They haven't voted for a Democrat since Clinton's first term.

[u/Micycle_the_Bichael → u/DarthNobody]

Lots of local unions are led by right-winged people, including some teachers unions. (1) being in a position of power is being in a position of power. (2) what better way to make sure a union doesn’t do any of the things you don’t like than be at the head of the union?

[u/DarthNobody → u/Micycle_the_Bichael]

Y'know, that's a good point. I forgot to consider the Ron Swanson paradigm.

[u/Buffyoh → u/Micycle_the_Bichael]

Are you for real? Teacher's union are serious Lefties.

[u/Micycle_the_Bichael → u/Buffyoh]

The head of my best friends union is a trump 2020/2024. The head of my dad’s union is a Republican. Yes I am sure that there are people who aren’t left-wing in unions.

[u/commentsWhataboutism → u/StandardForsaken]

You people are amazing. The head of a union is a right winger? In which universe?

Are you aware SEVENTY FUCKING TWO percent of African Americans are unvaccinated in NYC? Maybe that has something to do with it?

[u/amacleay → u/commentsWhataboutism]

Username checks out

[u/nottoodrunk → u/incruente]

Probably because if they get fired they can’t falsify overtime records and steal from the commonwealth.

[u/tronald_dump → u/nottoodrunk]

No youre thinking of Police Unions. We're talking about labor unions.

[u/nottoodrunk → u/tronald_dump]

Buddy if you think the labor unions working the MBTA aren’t stealing OT then I got a bridge to sell you.

[u/tronald_dump → u/incruente]

Because vaccine mandates are anti-working class.

A union will ALWAYS fight anything which may result in lost jobs for members.

[u/incruente → u/tronald_dump]

Because vaccine mandates are anti-working class.

How?

[u/tronald_dump → u/incruente]

Because it will result in lost jobs within the union. Laws which cause lost jobs for the working class = anti-working class law.

[u/incruente → u/tronald_dump]

Because it will result in lost jobs within the union. Laws which cause lost jobs for the working class = anti-working class law.

But that means more jobs open up, too.

[u/KTMZD410 → u/incruente]

Discrimination. White people always think they know best.

[u/incruente → u/KTMZD410]

Discrimination. White people always think they know best.

In my experience, the people who think they know best tend to be of many colors. Their common factor is that they usually try to force other people to do what they want. After all, it's for their own good.

[u/irondukegm]

It's almost like some public sector unions are run by arrogant entitled morons

[u/DarthNobody]

Can the MBTA do ANYTHING right?

[u/drchris6000]

OMG, the movie Idiocracy is coming true......

[u/detach_d]

Ofcourse, case they dumb

[u/alphacreed1983]

My union and allllll the teachers unions are now requiring the shot. Unions are democrat groups of people with the same education level. Blame the stupid people not the union system.

[u/burnrlevindurantprob]

I am in a public union. I am all for vaccine mandates.

[u/Pubisjaunt]

One of the things unions are meant to protect against is "unilateral changes to working conditions" with some exceptions that would be laid out in the collective bargaining agreement.

I don't see this as the union taking an explicit anti-vaxx stance, I see this as the union holding the state accountable to their side of the bargain. I could see this matter going to arbitration but I could also see this worked out before then as a matter of optics.

I did a quick google search for the State/Carman's Union CBA but could only find a MOU produced by a FOIA request that was deemed non-responsive...

E: Grammar/fat fingers

[u/GuruKid87 → u/Pubisjaunt]

I agree with this. Except you can tell from the comments that many of the union members intact are anti vax. If it was 90% vaccinated they wouldn’t have an issue with the mandate. My guess is it’s like 50% vaccinated.

[u/Pubisjaunt → u/GuruKid87]

I admittedly don't use Facebook so I can't see most of the comments but I imagine that the majority are from the usual vocal minority

[u/GuruKid87 → u/Pubisjaunt]

No but that’s not how unions work. Unions generally represent the overall view of the workforce. You can argue it’s lopsided towards seniority and leadership but in general it’s true. Union isn’t going to fight something that most of the members agree with.

[u/ms-2091 → u/GuruKid87]

...you can tell from the comments that many of the union members intact are anti vax.

I'm honestly just impressed you can tell whether or not they're circumcised from the comment section. Surprised it correlates with being anti-vax though.

[u/redactedandredacted → u/GuruKid87]

You realize that the majority of the people commenting on a post about not getting vaccinated are going to lean anti-vax?

[u/GuruKid87 → u/redactedandredacted]

Why would that be? If you’re a vaccinated member, wouldn’t you be tired of your colleagues not getting vaccinated? Wouldn’t you push back against your union leaders fighting something silly like this?

[u/redactedandredacted → u/GuruKid87]

I would bet they care a lot less than the people who would lose their jobs over it

[u/SpookyTerrence → u/redactedandredacted]

Spoiler alert: Nobody’s going to lose their jobs because they’re going to get vaccinated just like every other fucktard who claims they’ll get fired before getting the jab.

[u/737900ER → u/Pubisjaunt]

This is the problem with unions, always fighting over the smallest thing, no matter how beneficial it might be to their members, simply to fight.

[u/Pubisjaunt → u/737900ER]

Precedent is everything when it comes to arbitration and the decisions on matters like this. I know emotions run high on topics like this but Id liken this situation to a lawyer defending an obviously guilty party: yes, everyone involved may know the expected outcome of the trial but it is still the lawyers obligation to insure a fair trial for their client.

[u/737900ER → u/Pubisjaunt]

Then how come they never fought the masking mandate last year?

[u/Pubisjaunt → u/737900ER]

I don't know why or why not the Carman's Union did or did not object to the mask mandate but I can tell you that my union and the organization that I work for came together and authored a number of "Memoranda of Understanding" (MOUs) regarding a number of things such as emergency leave and staffing issues in the early days of the pandemic. One such was on mask mandates and the consensus was basically "we encourage everyone to wear a mask and follow state guidelines." I imagine the union and the MBTA came to a similar understanding initially and later regarding the federal mask mandate in transit facilities. The difference here is that the state vaccine mandate comes with significant changes to working conditions in the threat of discipline or termination on the basis of vaccination status, something that AFAIK was conspicuously absent from mask mandates.

Just as an aside, my union has taken a similar stance on vaccination as a condition of employment but I think their statement is a little more well though out. To paraphrase: "Maintaining the health and safety of our members is of paramount importance. While the union leadership continues to encourage workers to voluntarily get vaccinated, it is not the role of the federal government to mandate vaccinations for the employees we represent. Issues related to vaccinations and testing for COVID-19 in the workplace must be negotiated with the union."

[u/redactedandredacted → u/Pubisjaunt]

Sorry this is Reddit. We only allow reactionary anti-union comments here

[u/bmc3515]

Fuck these assholes.

[u/deanykg]

I think everyone needs to get the vaccine and anyone scared of it is a baby bitch boy but I feel like responding to your employer mandating medical procedures is sort of a thing a union is supposed to do.

[u/silocren]

Fire anyone who refuses. MBTA employeea are amongst the highest paid public transnit workers in the world. There will be 10 vaccinated people ready to take their place.

[u/taketombo → u/silocren]

You do realize that being in a union means there’s an actual contract - negotiated by the union - between the employee and employer.

The primary clause(s) usually cover termination. Like you can’t fire without cause, and who goes first when downsizing.

RIGHT NOW, IN THE APPLICABLE CONTRACT, you can’t be required to get the vaccine, and (conversely) you can’t be fired for not having it. The state is seeking a change to the contract that would allow them to a) require the vaccine and as a consequence b) not having the vaccine would be cause for termination.

THE STATE CANT FIRE THEM UNTIL THE CONTRACT IS MODIFIED. And the union, as it should, is negotiating with the state over what that modification looks like. for example, from a bureaucratic standpoint, what does vaccinated mean? is it:

a) you have submitted a scan of your vaccine card to the MBTA clinic?

b) you are listed in MIIS? (What’s the procedure for out of state vaccinations?)

c) all employees are tested for blood titer levels showing vaccination?

d) you submit a sworn affidavit you are vaccinated?

and then, if the MBTA clinic, looses your record, what happens? For example, state employees need to take conflict of interest of training every 2 years. From what I’ve seen, with how bad the records management is, most of the people I know are doing it at least twice a year … do you get re-vaxxed? titers measured? I don’t know.

will an agreement apply to booster shots? Will it include paid time off to get a shot or recover from effects? Will those absence(s) count against your attendance record?

I was out of commission for 3 days following my second shot. My immune compromised sister was partially paralyzed in one leg for 2 weeks. She’s scheduling her booster now, but has made arrangements to work from home for up to 2 weeks in case she can’t walk again. On a similar note, I always get my flu shot on a Friday. If I can’t get it on a Friday, i get it on Thursday and use a vacation day on Friday.

If the union can negotiate for paid time off for the vaccine/booster and/or for it to not count against your absence record, that‘s something I’d be looking for them to do.

[u/SueAnnNivens → u/taketombo]

Former shop steward, different union. This is exactly it. Anytime management wants to change or add work rules it is contested by the union. The contract has to change. The union oversees the employee handbook, work rules, route changes, & etc.

If the union does not challenge anything, management will always add something that could be detrimental to the workforce outside of contract negotiations.

MBTA & other bus company employees were notified when the vaccine opened up to transit workers. Quite a few operators are vaccinated. They are on a bus all day & service more people than you think. That opens an operator up to far more exposure than most people.

Operators are having a hard time enforcing the federal mask mandate. They do not have support from management & are being disciplined for attempting to make passengers wear their mask while on the bus. They have been filing grievances with the union.

Most operators are fearful of catching COVID because we know how the ventilation on buses work. The union is working to ensure the operators are protected. This has nothing to do with money.

I wish more people would study the history of labor unions in the US.

[u/taketombo → u/SueAnnNivens]

And between being the biggest union in the MBTA and the first to renegotiate their FY2022-2024 contract (FYI… I believe they are currently without contract, as are the rest of the MBTA unions) what concessions they get from the T are going to be precedent for the rest of us.

[u/SueAnnNivens → u/taketombo]

It would be nice to see contracts address quarantining & time off for vaccination. They will have to define pay & classification for the time off. Sick or vacation time should not be used nor should it be counted towards days off resulting in discipline.

[u/silocren → u/taketombo]

But those concerns are not what is reflected in the statement, or in the responses from MBTA employees below. They are saying its "unconstitional" and a "violation of their rights". There are absolutely anti-vax nutjobs in the MBTA ranks and they need to be weeded out and removed from their taxpayer funded positions.

If this was about negotiating some PTO it would not even be a discussion. It would have been handled before the announcement was made.

[u/taketombo → u/silocren]

I think the statement itself is pretty vague. Almost exactly like the one that came through from my union when the state imposed additional taxes to cover paid FMLA and there was the legal question of if the tax should be paid by the state (increasing overhead per employee) or by the employee (decreasing take home pay).

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Today, Governor Baker issued an executive order […] By no means are we agreeing to these terms without negotiation and will continue to fight on your behalf.

[…] We will enter into dialogue with state and MBTA officials, but only if they are prepared to work with us.

[…]Jim Evers, PresidentBoston Carmen's Union, Local 589

It looks to me like the union is going to negotiate for whatever it can get rather than having it’s contract modified by executive order. Over at Facebook there‘s one worker posting that they don’t want the T to know their medical business (which the union president responded to), one calling for a strike (“half of us walk out”), and two calling for hazard pay.

The comments a hardly a consensus of what the 6,000+ workers in that union think, feel, want, or are negotiating for. The statement at the top only promises that the union will do its best to negotiate.

[u/silocren → u/taketombo]

Just stop dude - there is a clear anti-vax bent 90% of the commenters have. I know this is not all MBTA employees, but it is surely indicative of the biggest complainers. Here are only a few examples:

• "You have to fight this Jimmy.It doesn’t even stop the spread, just hospitalizations (they claim). It should be a personal choice."
• "Challenge this unconstitutional edict! Our right’s as citizens and union members are being violated!"
• "We do not have to disclose our medical records"
• "You must rethink this and fight for our medical rights."
• "I wanna know where the exemption is for people who already had covid and have the antibodies. No point in getting the vaccine if you’re naturally immune.
• "I’m not getting the vaccine regardless of the outcome."
• "I’ll do whatever it takes to NOT get the vaccine."
• "A Vaccine that doesn't keep you from getting it, or from giving it, but you MUST get it anyway? Really?"
• "The governor Is not a doctor or scientist and has no right mandating anything. Flood his office with calls and letters. Hold him accountable with blood on his hands. Pfizer has been known to cause bells palsy. See my page for more info. Do NOT take any boosters. You've been warned."

These people are spitting outright lies about the vaccine. I know you're defensive of your fellow MBTA workers, but this is dangerous shit. They need to lose their jobs if they don't get vaccinated - absolutely no wiggle room. The MBTA will be better off without them.

[u/CheeseburgerIceCream → u/silocren]

They’re actually having problems recruiting and retaining bus drivers right now.

[u/TotallyFarcicalCall → u/CheeseburgerIceCream]

I know a few. I wouldn't do it for $250K a year.

[u/WMDick → u/TotallyFarcicalCall]

Great thing to automate in that case. Let's save that money.

[u/WMDick → u/silocren]

Fire them all and automate. Great timing.

[u/nejaahalcyon]

Lol, I don’t think they have a legal standing

[u/redactedandredacted → u/nejaahalcyon]

They don’t need legal standing to bargain on behalf of their members…

[u/Speedster202 → u/nejaahalcyon]

This case will get laughed out of court the moment the MBTA union tries to present their “argument”.

[u/737900ER]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Today, Governor Baker issued an executive order (https://bit.ly/3svv4L1) that Massachusetts state workers must provide proof of COVID-19 vaccination on or by October 17. By no means are we agreeing to these terms without negotiation and will continue to fight on your behalf.
Throughout this pandemic, we have played an essential role in transporting frontline workers (police, firefighters, nurses, health care providers, grocery workers, and other vital professions) throughout the state to their jobs.
We are committed to protecting your interests, your safety, and that of your family. We will enter into dialogue with state and MBTA officials, but only if they are prepared to work with us.
If you have any questions or concerns, please don’t hesitate to contact your delegate or another member of the e-board.
In Solidarity,
Jim Evers, President
Boston Carmen's Union, Local 589

[u/SilentR0b → u/737900ER]

What a real stupid hill to die on. Literally

[u/meeYai → u/SilentR0b]

Well the maximum grade on any MBTA line is 6.5% so they don't need a big hill to die on, a moderately steep one will do just fine.

[u/venusorbiting → u/737900ER]

We are committed to protecting your interests, your safety, and that of your family.

The irony is palpable.

[u/Admirable-Policy → u/737900ER]

They wonder why unions are dying out

[u/redactedandredacted → u/Admirable-Policy]

Lmao this isn’t why unions are dying out

[u/bumpkinblumpkin → u/redactedandredacted]

Yes, obviously it is mostly the result of globalism/capitalism with multinationals not wanting to pay higher wages and people higher prices for goods, but as someone that worked in the electrical union in Philly the psuedo mafia bullshit really turned off a lot of people.

Physically assaulting people and their property on non-union jobs, colluding with the city to refuse permits to private contractors, requiring new applicants to hand out fliers for local dem politicians and hilariously obvious corruption like charging the city a full days labor to do 30 mins of work or working with the mob really made them unpopular with what used to be the pro-union working class in that city. I'm sure Boston isn't as bad as Chicago or Philly in that regard but I'm sure there is still plenty of corruption.

[u/Cheap_Coffee]

Of course they will.

I support unions, but the MBTA union is a pretty good existance proof of why unions are bad.

[u/Conan776 → u/Cheap_Coffee]

I thought they took pretty good care of their members.

[u/Ok-Razzmatazz-8176]

Just another useless public sector union doing its best at undermining the public trust and I myself am a 35 + year private sector union member and believe in unions wholeheartedly just not unions that don’t hold their membership accountable

[u/taketombo → u/Ok-Razzmatazz-8176]

When you’re in a no-strike union (thanks Reagan!) there’s not much leverage to hold an employer responsible either…

[u/tronald_dump]

ITT: liberals minds being blown when they realize unions dont like anti-working class laws

[u/MrFusionHER → u/tronald_dump]

Uh, i don't see anyone's mind blown here

[u/Sgt484]

Good for them

[u/danrcus]

Good for them. Vaccines are important but you should have the same right to say what does and doesn’t get injected into your body.

[u/bostonman617]

Let them all die . I fucking hate the MBTA And all their shit drivers

[u/DarthNobody → u/bostonman617]

*their

[u/Thisbymaster]

To bad.

[u/dyslexicbunny]

Dumb but okay. Can they can not fight making it bad to crash Green Line trains into each other?

[u/Buffyoh]

Guys! WTF? Haven't enough of yours members got COVID already?

[u/deanykg → u/[deleted]]

My opinion. My opinion. We are still entitled to opinions right? Gonna push to make that illegal too?

We are all entitled to our opinions. Just remember that being disagreed with is not a form of oppression or your opinion being made illegal.

[u/Safeguard63 → u/[deleted]]

People are just pissed because they got the clot shots and they want everyone else to have to.

The government said, "line up, take your shots, we'll give you some goodies and give you your freedom back", and so they did.

I wonder how they feel now, knowing they were lied to?