r/financialindependence • u/fidgit86 • 9d ago

What do you do that you earn six figures?

It seems like a lot of people make a lot of money and it seems like I’m missing out on something. So those of you that do, whats your occupation that pays so well?

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u/Obecalp86 9d ago

Physician.

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u/golfmd2 9d ago

Physician as well. A lot of us are terrible with money, including myself up to 10 years ago

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u/MrMudPhud 9d ago

Trying to explain some really basic shit on r/residency is like pulling teeth.

Like, dude you're 34 years old and 4 years out of med school, you make $68K/year working 90 hours/week, you have minimal retirement savings, and you have $377K in non-tax deductible debt that basically halves your salary just to pay down the interest. Why is it inconceivable to you that if you made all these sacrifices in another profession, you might come out ahead financially?

Such smart people and still no one has taught them that W2 income is not how you build wealth.

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u/[deleted] 9d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/flashbang217 9d ago

Financially you'll be fine. I started my first attending job less than 10 years ago with six figure debt and now have over a couple million in net worth. I'm also in a lower paying field, internal medicine.

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u/Bricknaaaa 9d ago

Guy in my class started at age 35, after practicing law for 9 years and forgoing a cush and cozy position at a law firm.

I think it’s feasible, but you’ve got to really want it. As my cousin told me: if you can’t see yourself doing anything else, pursue medicine. If you can see yourself doing anything else, you should probably do that instead.

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u/RoyalFail6 9d ago

You’ll be fine if you’re financially literate and know to invest your money. Choose your medical school wisely, loans and the few years after school as a resident will be brutal. Also, don’t compare yourself to others as they could be making serious mistakes, have rich parents, or have scholarships. Many new doctors see that first big paycheck and start buying those new cars, home, jewelry, etc. instead of looking at that loan amount.

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u/PurpleBlueTeal 9d ago

If you do choose to pursue medicine, I would just recommend being very thoughtful when picking your specialty. If you are going to give up a decade of your prime earning years and take on substantial debt, then you really need to consider what the salary range is for the specialties you are deciding between. Most primary care physicians I know here in the South who work full time make $200s -$350s. Most of my specialist friends make $400s-$600s. I do know a hand full of specialist who make 7 figures annually, mostly surgical specialties. However, the physicians I know who make the most are the ones who own large group practices, employ other physicians, and (eventually) sell to private equity.

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u/[deleted] 9d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/PurpleBlueTeal 9d ago

Yes, definitely true. You need to do well in order to get into the more competitive specialties, and those are usually the specialities that pay very well. Studying consistently for your boards early on, developing a genuine relationship with a mentor in your specialty of interest who can write you a really strong recommendation letter, participating in research and having a really strong externship at a residency program you are interested in can all help.

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u/G00bernaculum 9d ago

Financially yes. Socially, well...

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u/Lets_Hookup_in_LA 9d ago

Such smart people and still no one has taught them that W2 income is not how you build wealth.

I’m not a doctor, just a dumb audio engineer, but are you saying it’s better to work under the table?

I don’t know where you live but here in California working as a 1099 is an excellent way to halve your income. Thankfully most media companies I work for pay us through payroll companies.

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u/talks_about_league_ 9d ago

They're saying just cus you get paid XX,XXX more in a year than (whatever other job) doesn't make a damn bit of difference because you are paying 30k+ in interest on the loans it took you to get this job.

there are jobs that pay well and dont start you off 10 years and 400k behind the pack

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u/Lets_Hookup_in_LA 9d ago

Got that part, but wasn’t sure what “W2 income” means.

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u/talks_about_league_ 9d ago

I think he just meant it as "the form that lists your pay that year in a vacuum", it looks good on paper but in practice it sucks. As a figure of speech rather than a literal interpretation.

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u/Lets_Hookup_in_LA 9d ago

Too bad investing your money in literally anything makes it instantaneously disappear. Once I tried to get into crypto. A client I was recording offered to pay me triple if I invested in crypto, so I obliged. Less than 24 hours later every coin we purchased and every exchange we used was wiped from the face of the earth. No recourse. Just a week’s pay down the toilet.

I remember the only time in my life I actually made enough where I had a little extra to save, this was in 2010, so I asked my father for some stock market advice, as he worked for Merril Lynch for more than 30 years.

All my savings were gone in less than a week.

On paper, investing sounds great, but unless you went to school for it, it’s actually really fucking horrible and a great way to lose everything.

Quite frankly, only qualified individuals should be allowed. I had to take 2 tests and get a license to drive my car, I had to take 2 tests and get a safety card to get my gun, but I can just throw it all away in an instant because some guy on reddit says so?

Dumb.

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u/talks_about_league_ 9d ago

U replied to the wrong person

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u/Lets_Hookup_in_LA 9d ago

oh well, too late to give a shit now

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u/Sensitive_Public 9d ago

I'm sorry but you should have invested wisely. Like this is 100 percent your fault man. I've been investing outside of a 401k for little over 3 years with a profit of 30k. Not hard to do.

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u/Lets_Hookup_in_LA 9d ago

I’ve had anywhere from $30k-$100k in medical bills per year for the last 15 years. No. lol.

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u/Punchingbird 9d ago

What isn’t w2. Things like owning a business, real estate, YouTube, Instagram influencer etc. Pretty much anything that allows you to earn money even while not actively working. Passive income.

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u/Lets_Hookup_in_LA 9d ago

Ahhhh. Allllllll the different things I’ve lost thousands and thousands on. I’ll stick to working, where the worst that can happen is I get fired, which has happened to me once in the last 30 years.

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u/SordidCanary 9d ago

I feel like he's using it as a synonym for job.

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u/p00rkitten 9d ago

I think they’re talking about investing.

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u/Tabenes 9d ago

W-2 income basically means your normal income a person makes through a job.

Other forms of income could come from the stock market, or your side hustle.

For physicians, a side hustle could be independent medical reviews, or testifying as an expert in court trials.

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u/djgizmo 9d ago

Means investment income is a better means of income over w2 income.

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u/seanspicer2222 9d ago

Lol I'm pretty sure you can't work under the table as a doctor, I'm not quite sure how that would work.

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u/Lets_Hookup_in_LA 9d ago

You just show up and ask the manager if you can doct for them.

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u/Drifter_Lux 9d ago

There’s more to it, though, like looking them square in the eye, a firm handshake, and reminding them you go to the same church.

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u/WoodenYogurtcloset86 9d ago

There’s locums, per diem

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u/subzerothrowaway123 9d ago

How do you build wealth then?

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u/elantra6MT 9d ago

Capital gains

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u/subzerothrowaway123 9d ago

So investing? But you need money to invest and so that money would from W2 income right?

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u/elantra6MT 9d ago

Yeah but I think it’s more about the timing of the money. 10 years x $100k is a lot better than 7 years no salary then 3 years $333k. The taxes are a lot lower when the W2 income is spread out and you get exponential growth on your investments. $250k/year as a physician is probably equivalent to $150k in other jobs that didn’t put you through $300-400k debt and made you wait 7-8 years for an income. If you know how hard it is to get into and through med school/residency, then you can imagine that those same people could have been successful in other fields too.

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u/subzerothrowaway123 9d ago

I see what you are saying. You are arguing about the time cost of the delayed income. This is the same argument I have seen when someone showed that a UPS driver earns more than a doctor due to the same factors you mentioned. This is only true in the short term. In your example, I can use someone who makes 100k and saves 20% for 20k a year investing at 10%. A doctor can make 250k and save 20% for 50k a year also investing at 10%. The 100k earner will come out ahead initially however the 250k earner will eclipse the 100k earner after 12 years.

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u/elantra6MT 9d ago

Just make sure you’re factoring in the growth for investments/med school debt (maybe 5-10% a year)

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u/subzerothrowaway123 9d ago

Yes there are more nuances. Med school debt average is 250k. Engineering debt average is 25k (per google). Also 3 years of residency pay at 50-60k. The math still favors the doctor. Also physician salaries have more growth, higher ceilings. The highest earners are in their 40s-50s. I don't think engineering careers continue to grow the same way. I think I see that you are an intern? I am 10 years into practice. You are proabably graduating with more debt than we did a decade ago, but being a physician is still overall more lucrative. Both in terms of income and also in wealth building. I am only a pediatrician but I am well ahead of all my engineering friends.

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u/SnowmanRandom 9d ago

The salary shoots up really quickly. If you take some extra shifts that student loan will be repaid in 5 years tops.

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u/kawi-bawi-bo 9d ago

Also hospitals I've worked for never have 401k matching. I think it's easy to get swayed by the salary numbers especially after finishing up residency at meager pay

source; have been working for 10+ years now and made terrible choices in the beginning lol

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u/NOBLOWWWW 9d ago

Your comment doesn’t really apply to me except for the w2 income not building wealth part…. Can you elaborate on that? Do you mean you have to invest it?

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u/MrMudPhud 9d ago

Basically yes, and for a long time. Also, the richest people don't build their wealth through labor. Any list of "top earning professions" is filled with professions that don't even touch the top 1% on average. Everyone with wealth is earning through appreciating assets.

$1 invested in your 20s turns into $10. $1 invested in your 30s turns into $5.

Then, a lot of people make huge sacrifices early in life (when investing is important) to earn a higher salary later. Doctors are a prime example. MD/PhDs (like me) basically hate money and quality of life.

Personally I think something about making a regular salary makes people less responsible with money. It automates the whole process. You don't think about the money. On average, people spend 93% of their income. So a lot of people making high regular W2 income just get in the habit of "spend it once you get it." It doesn't matter if you make $200, 300, or 400k if you aren't leveraging that into appreciating assets.

Also taxes. Taxes fuck W2 earners way harder than basically any other form of earning. Taxed before it has a chance to compound.

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u/Orend2 9d ago

Highly recommended blog - physician on FIRE

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u/Ramanujin666 9d ago

Have you heard of the white coat investor

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u/golfmd2 9d ago

I recently found his site. Like it

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u/stabmasterarson10 9d ago

I read an awesome book a while back "the millionaire next door" which discusses this. If I remember correctly doctors generally speaking are bad with money for a few reasons. Highly paid doctors are paid well for their health care skills which often doesn't involve sales, budgeting, or other financial knowledge so these skills are underdeveloped compared to other high paying careers. Everyone thinks all doctors make "doctor money" so there's a lot of pressure from friends, family and spouses to live a lavish lifestyle. And of course student debt can be quite high. I highly recommend the book.

Most importantly thank you for your service doctors and nurses!

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u/golfmd2 9d ago

I’m reading it now. Written in the ‘90s but I think the general idea is valid. Many physicians get taken advantage of by financial advisors and insurance salesmen as well. I know I did. Had the whole life policy and all. Don’t get me started on family with their hands out because I’m the “ rich” doctor.

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u/violetsandviolas 9d ago

My BIL graduated medical school about 22 years ago. He joined the Indian Health Service. Starting salary—20 years ago—was $80,000 plus 100% loan repayment. He was able to retire comfortably last year in his mid-50’s. Now he does part-time/locum work just for fun. My daughter is in med school on an Army scholarship. It pays 100% of her tuition, fees, and housing. When she graduates she’ll be commissioned as a Captain, and she’ll only owe the Army four years of work, for which she’ll get a reasonable salary, and then she can move to whatever practice she chooses, with no debt.

So the moral of this story is, oddly, that one way to do well in medicine is to do public health/military work.

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u/GirlsLikeStatus 36F | 37% SR | 50% to FI 9d ago

Can you tell me what helped you make the switch? My SO is a physician is also terrible with money but we come from such different perspectives it’s hard to get it. I’ve made some headway but could use your perspective.

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u/golfmd2 9d ago

I owe a lot to an ENT friend of mine. He used to be a big spender, had a financial advisor leaching 2% off him, etc. He had left for a few years and when he returned he was different. Happier and more content. We got to talking and basically showed me the light in respects to money and the various leeches in this world that try to part you from it. Also, get off the spending/buying compulsion that’s only feeding a temporary dopamine rush and pursue what’s lasting in this life. Money helps but without mental and physical health, one has nothing.

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u/GirlsLikeStatus 36F | 37% SR | 50% to FI 8d ago

Thanks, maybe i can find him a mentor at the hospital. The guy plugging in his Leaf to the light post and not the bro that just bought a Bugatti.

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u/bravestar3030 9d ago

one of the easiest way to know if a doctor is good with money is to see if they are incorporated or declaring taxes as self employed. I'll let you guess which are the dumb ones (Financially speaking)

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u/r5d400 9d ago

I feel physicians are so underrepresented in the finance subreddits. like, I get that doctors take a while to make good money due to all the years of schooling, but once they're done with that, it's huge salaries all the way.

and yet they still don't show up much to these subreddits

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u/Commander-Flatus 9d ago

I think there are dozens of us. Dozens! I also think we mostly lurk….

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u/portmantuwed 9d ago

you must be some sort of analyst or therapist it seems

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u/wheresmytowel27 9d ago

Please tell me you typed this in cut offs

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u/I_like_ShinyShiny 9d ago

Are you also a never-nude?

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u/DrThirdOpinion 9d ago

Lol, you need to meet some pediatricians if you think everyone is making huge salaries.

Some of us do pretty well, but some specialities earn criminally low salaries for their amount of education, cost of education, opportunity cost, giving up the best years of your life to study, and the sheer responsibility we deal with in terms of human life every day.

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u/nottaylorgreer 9d ago

Go peds lol

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u/GuidanceStock1069 9d ago

I’m a pediatrician. Yeah… pay sucks taking student loans into consideration. I’m a little bitter about it, but I love my job.

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u/kaitalina20 9d ago

My cousin is some fancy specialized peds doctor so I have no idea what he does day to day, but I know that whenever he ever actually finds the time to talk to me (which is rare) he is always overworked but he still loves it and says he knows what he signed up for. He’s a resident is why so much work is pushed onto him

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u/pizzaboba 9d ago

Do pediatricians not make significantly more than normal physicians?

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u/cheddarwock 8d ago

They make significantly less than most other physicians including the pediatric sub-specialties. For example, a pediatric infectious disease specialist makes much less than an adult infectious disease specialist.

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u/TalkScience2Me 9d ago

When I was a senior in high school, I asked my pediatrician if I could shadow her. She said unless I was planning on being a surgeon, becoming a doctor isn't worth the time, stress, and debt lol I ended up going into Biotech

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u/[deleted] 9d ago

[deleted]

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u/DrThirdOpinion 9d ago

You’re not doing brain surgery, the surgeon with about a decade more training than you is performing brain surgery. A medical student can be a first assist.

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u/SHAZAM7744 9d ago edited 9d ago

I was a pharmaceutical rep with one of the biggest. Of the 4 products I sold 3 were #1 in their class (product #’s 3 and 4 rotating out about every two years.) I had responsibility covering three different residency programs. By far the largest was the Family Practice residency. One of the third years had gone through the recruiting process and was hired by one of the largest private practices in Mesa. He pulled me aside in confidence and told me almost bragging about his starting salary of $75k/yr and that included insurance billing as well as after his portion of operating cost responsibilities. He had a MOUNTAIN of student debt from both undergrad and med school. He asked me what I thought. I smiled and congratulated him. I didn’t have the heart to tell him that after 5yrs as a Pharma Rep my annual salary plus quarterly bonuses were a little more than double his. I started at my job when he was two years into med school (in Az at that time family practice residencies were 3yrs - I’m not sure how long they are now.) I was also fortunate enough to have a full scholarship. It didn’t suck playing a sport I loved that essentially paid for me to earn two degrees over 5yrs that paid for my entire undergrad at 100%. So when I graduated I had a zero balance.

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u/DrThirdOpinion 9d ago

Tbh, you probably thought he was taking about his salary, but that was likely his signing bonus. $75,000 wouldn’t be unheard of for a private practice. Private practice FM is absolutely not making $75,000 a year, full stop. Many private practices will pay a $25,000 a year stipend while FM residents are still in residency.

I am more than willing to bet you misunderstood the situation.

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u/Obecalp86 9d ago

Many docs are financially illiterate which may be why they’re underrepresented. Also, many don’t start making a high salary until mid-30’s. Many of my colleagues go straight for the million dollar house and expensive car while they’re not maxing out payments on their $200k+ student loans. Can’t remember the exact number, but a large minority of doctors in their 60’s have a net worth <$1mil, which should be “impossible” for individuals making $200-500k/year (or sometimes more).

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u/MrMudPhud 9d ago

Yup. Doctors are financially illiterate, and because of that we get taken advantage of. "Oh, $300K/year to be an ICU doc? That's way better than $130K/year as a software engineer." Then, hospital administrators and med schools look at the situation and go, "So how far can we push these kids using salary as justification?" The answer is about 10 years of missed income and $400K in debt.

I have tried over the years, on many occasions, to explain opportunity cost to other med students/physicians. You can literally make all the sacrifices of a doctor through your mid-30s and come out ahead if you go into almost any other decently high paying field that doesn't require tons of post-graduate training. People on these forums see that easily. They understand how an extra ten years of compounding interest will dramatically change any investment portfolio, but if I make this point on a physician subreddit I get bombarded with downvotes and non-quantitative hunches. The only reason physicians are richer in real life is that almost no one takes advantage of their retirement savings while young. The wealth building opportunity is exactly the same. Engineers overwhelmingly choose a higher QOL than what med students have.

People here of course understand it. If I told you that basically any professional would spend the first 10 years of their career spending $25K and living like a med student/resident, you would all tell me that they would become rich. Most people don't get this. They just see salary.

A lot of the time it comes down to it just not mattering. Most doctors don't do it for the money and wind up fine. They get to spend on big purchases and that's what they really wanted. Then they enjoy a more modest retirement, and that's also fine.

Also, the number of doctors making >$500K/year is also pretty low. Increasingly doctors are employees. Like in any industry, there are some outliers, but the days of $500K+ are dwindling.

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u/AssaultOfTruth 9d ago

Great post. Moreover the average software engineer doesn’t work anywhere near as hard as a med student. There is also no chance of being $300k in debt almost finished it and...oh crap mental breakdown or health event precluding completion. There are people who are not doctors but have a lot of med school debt.

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u/Do_things_wrong 9d ago edited 9d ago

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man... I take the MCAT in a week. had some personal finance classes in undergrad though so hopefully something stuck.

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u/curiouspda12345 9d ago

Eh don't let this guy scare you that much. There are a lot of good reddits even a doc one (r/whitecoatinvestor) that provide basic tools on how to not fuck up and survive your middle years and old and can't have young people fun years.

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u/thenameinaz 9d ago

+1 on white coat investor. TLDR: Basically live like you’re in residency and med school until you pay off your loans.

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u/WoodenYogurtcloset86 9d ago

Med school was fun (make friends), residency sucks even if you make friends. But, almost done with residency and things are looking better. I’m glad I did this rather than some tech job working for random x company. Even if you’re employed by random x hospital, you’re always helping a patient directly

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u/VascularOlive 9d ago

Just tested on 7/30. Browsing through these threads. Hopefully living my entire life in poverty doesn’t make me want to let loose immediately after I get decent money.

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u/[deleted] 9d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/c00lAsAMoose 9d ago

If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you? I’m in the same boat but retaking the mcat in January and trying to figure out if I’m 100% in on medicine.

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u/coyotecantspell 9d ago

Specialty matters too

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u/Charming_Amphibian37 9d ago

Yep, i count going to med school my biggest mistake in my life and convince friend’s children to study sth else. The overall pay is higher, but not enough to compansate this much effort.

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u/MrMudPhud 9d ago

Absolutely. The grind/competition is absurd.

Working this hard while being even remotely intelligent in any other field will have you near the top in no time. My old CEO, a former bigwig at Merck, tried to recruit me to the business side of pharma. She basically said, "I'll write your letter, you'll get a job in research, transition to management, get your MBA part time, and head off to business development."

I'm really happy with medicine/research as a calling, but it's highly unsatisfying to be called average and essentially get lectured at by MBAs on how to be more useful. Definitely looking into doing the medical director track in pharma. Gotta score that name brand residency first.

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u/GrassNova 9d ago

Meh, I'm not sure if it's that simple. One of the upsides of being a doctor is it's basically a set path, you know almost exactly what you need to do to get ahead. In undergrad it's GPA, research, MCAT, and ECs. In med school it's about getting a good mark on your Step I/IIs, recs again, etc. You don't have to focus much effort on figuring out what you need to do, or waste a lot of time going in the wrong direction, but get to pour all that time and hard work on clear tasks and stepping stones.

Don't get me wrong this is all definitely difficult work, but it's not the same as other fields where there aren't very many tried and tested paths. Also being a doc and other career choices also often require different skillsets and even personalities that may not transfer over as easily as some people think.

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u/Iheartmypupper 9d ago

I got a buddy, he's been out of residency for about 3 years. he's clearing $260k/year in a low CoL area. By himself he's sitting at 5x the annual household income for the area. He gets his 401k match, and that's it. no other investing. doesn't max his 401k, doesn't do an IRA, nothing.

we're supposed to be having a talk about investing in the near future.

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u/MrMudPhud 9d ago

It's shocking when I meet young attendings who clearly have no idea what to do financially. Rent expensive apartments. Spend their whole paycheck. Etc...

I did the MD/PhD route. It's the ultimate opportunity cost sacrifice. Still I put away ~$7-8k per year making a stipend and I'm closing in on $100k NW. If I am worth more than you making 1/10th your salary, you done fucked up.

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u/Eighty-Sixed 9d ago

I am in my first attending job. My HR is surprised I am maxing out my 401k and note how proud they are of me (I am a woman in the south, I am used to pendants and being called honey, etc). Admittedly, I am playing catch up on life stuff (bought a house for 300k with 20% down, buying a car for 60k with 50% down, got married with no help from parents, reproducing) but I am almost done with student loan debt (less than 50k - I paid off over 100k during residency) at 2 years out. I do max a backdoor Roth for both of us, max my husband's 401k, contribute to HSA (but having a kid is expensive) and my husband puts 400 a month in Adobe stock (he works for them and gets it at 85%). I plan to put the tax deductible amount into a 529 account (8k) once my son is born. But then I know I need to start actually actively investing beyond the passive stuff. And for some reason it is scary to me to put it into stocks than to have it in my bank account, even though financially it makes no sense.

My husband never thought he would be in this situation and has no knowledge of things to do and wouldn't take advantage of any of it without my direction. While he makes decent money, his paychecks are small because of all of the deductions. I didn't play a huge role in his finances until we got married and now I manage all of the money. He is the first in his family to even go to college and his parents work blue collar jobs (one works at a fast food restaurant and the other assembly line) with eons of debt and no retirement savings or otherwise. I am the first doctor in my family from largely blue collar workers who rather tuck money under the mattress than trust any bank. So I am trying.

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u/Iheartmypupper 9d ago

for what it's worth, it sounds like you're killing it.

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u/flamingswordmademe 7d ago

What do you mean "invest beyond passive stuff"? If you're talking about actively managed mutual funds you definitely don't have to (and shouldn't) do that no matter what

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u/Eighty-Sixed 7d ago

No, by passive I mean money comes out of my paycheck for my 401k and I put money into a backdoor Roth once yearly but I don't put money into investments otherwise. I guess the 401k is passive in my head because it is done for me by someone else. I meant I should be actively taking extra money every month and putting it somewhere beyond my savings account each month. I have around 3-4k extra every month (and will have more soon after I come off guaranteed salary). So far it has gone to a down payment on a house, building an emergency fund, and a car. But now that we aren't saving for anything specific, I need to do something with the extra money because the tiny bit of interest it accrues isn't cutting it.

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u/flamingswordmademe 7d ago

Gotcha. You're right it is more active in that way, but all you have to do is create a taxable account at an online brokerage and invest just like you do in your 401k and IRA. do automatic transfers and it'll be autopilot just like your retirement accounts

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u/2Confuse 9d ago

Yup. Hugely unpopular opinion to the masses, but we deserve to be paid more, ESPECIALLY in residency.

We have lesser “equivalents” in the work force essentially making double at half the hours. Wtf is up with that.

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u/Chapped_Assets 9d ago

Yea when I was a surgery resident I think we calculated it out to like $15 an hour or some shit.

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u/AeneasSonofAnchises 9d ago

“Lesser equivalents” smh……

And doctors complain that people thing they’re arrogant

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u/2Confuse 9d ago edited 9d ago

This is in regard to people with only 500 hours of shadowing being paid more than MDs with ~6000 hours of real clinical experience and actually difficult board exams.

Residency is the hospital’s excuse to not pay MDs or DOs what they’re actually worth.

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u/Ppalgans 5d ago

Tbh I don’t think it should be “pay more” but “work less”. The amount of time most doctors work is absolutely ridiculous. How do you expect a human being to take care of another one, who is ill, if they’re tired out and lacking sleep? The whole system needs a change istg

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u/2Confuse 5d ago

I am fine with either honestly. Medicine gets humane or medicine becomes fairly paid again for ALL specialties.

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u/bluepaintbrush 9d ago

This is for sure true of people who want to be doctors for the money. But the ones I know who toughed it out have a more intrinsic relationship with being a physician and knowing they can help people in that way. So they get more reward out of the role than an SWE for example.

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u/MrMudPhud 9d ago

Absolutely. One of the best things about adopting a FIRE mindset is acknowledging that you can accomplish the same thing with different incomes. When you stop worrying about "more" and start worrying about "enough" you can honestly ask yourself if you'd rather do one career vs. another.

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u/italiabrain 9d ago

Yeah agree with this in general, but there are some of us who vaguely know what we’re doing. There are also some capital accumulation / tax arbitrage things you can do if you’re willing to bleed off $50k+/yr of lifestyle money that only make sense over a certain yearly income (effective tax rate).

I broke $100k my second year of residency with ER moonlighting. It wasn’t close to the highest paying place, but it was worth it with malpractice completely covered and willingness to schedule around whatever rotation I was on.

I also stopped at a 3yr IM program to do night hospital work. I get to do a fair amount of open ICU, my own bedside procedures, and I make more than some of my classmates who went through another 3yrs for Pulm fellowship. I do work some extra shifts, but my lowest year has been $420 and I actually prefer nights anyway.

The people who are really getting screwed are the people who are actually underpaid on top of the debt. Our in-hospital PharmDs work a similar 7-on 7-off to our hospital docs but make 1/3 the hourly, no productivity, no bonuses. They actually need the PharmD and the ones I work with also did a 2yr inpatient/emergency pharmacy residency.

Then there are the degrees that never should have been made doctorates. You don’t need a doctorate as has been normalized for PT or upcoming OT. It’s crazy how fast it advanced too. Lots of managers of current departments who graduated 15 years ago are doing the job fine with a bachelors.

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u/deathnow098 9d ago

It depends on doctor's salaries really... if you're right that there is no difference between them and software engineers salaries, it's obviously insane.

When I google the salaries, tho, software engineers make like $280k at the top and MDs, esp surgeons, seem to make $400-$800k. If those are real numbers, you can run an interest calculator even if the software engineer was living pretty frugally for 10 years (and their whole career), they wouldn't ultimately make as much as the doctors, although it would be way closer than most people think probably, yeah.

If MDs are only making $300k, then they're obviously much worse off, tho.

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u/MrMudPhud 9d ago

I've done the math. Basically if you have the engineer living as frugally as the physician until they're done residency, then you have the physician live as frugally as the engineer thereafter (so equivalent lifestyles) the engineer comes out ahead of PCPs at ~$130k average income. For specialists it's much harder for the engineer to overtake. It's more like $200k, which is tough to average even at FAANG.

For anything other than finance, it's basically impossible to beat a rural orthopod. You'd be making close to seven figures in like... Nebraska.

This all assumes they work until 65 though. Personally I think the chances of physicians making this kind of money until 65 these days are slim to none. If I still need the money, which I probably won't given I invest properly and don't experience massive lifestyle creep, I would have to consider a mid-career switch to Medical Director positions in pharma/biotech.

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u/underengineered 9d ago

I've had this discussion with friends. MD vs Mechanical Engineer in the building industry.

The engineering degree is done in 4 years. You're 22 with minimal debt making $50k/yr. Bybthe time the future MD graduates medical school the mech engineer gets their PE. I hit 6 figures in year 6.

By the time the MD graduates medical school and gets out of residency they have 6 figures of debt and a lost opportunity cost of around $750k vs the engineer. If the MD wants a really big salary then they'll take more time to specialize.

Their salary will eventually overcome the typical engineer but not before they are in their 40s. And if you go into family practice or pediatrics you may never catch up.

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u/OneHourRetiring 9d ago edited 9d ago

Problem that most don't know is that docs are also burden with high insurance (namely to fend off lawsuits). Younger brother is an OB/GYN and at 54, he should have been retired, but he is still at it .... paying off the house, the five cars (for three persons household!), bad real estates investment, high malpractice insurance premiums, and tons of machines including the da Vinci Surgical System that didn't pan out (he had to sell it at substantially reduced price to local hospital, but at least he is the leading authority to operate with it ... LOL!)

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u/Rnaofo 9d ago

Why on earth would he purchase a Da Vinci Surgical System if he’s an OB/GYN? It’s not like the system can assist with delivery like the curved paddle that handled Padme’s newborn in Star Wars.

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u/OneHourRetiring 9d ago edited 9d ago

He was doing surgeries like laparoscopic on the gynecology side of the practice. This was when he wanted cut back on delivering the kiddos. He didn’t get enough cases to pay for the couple of millions that it costs.

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u/spald01 9d ago

Medicine is also a career you really shouldn't be going into if your goal is to make a bunch of money in and then retire early. If you're in school for an extra 10+ years to be a specialized physician, you're hopefully doing it because you want to.

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u/[deleted] 9d ago edited 9d ago

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u/Urojet 9d ago

Very apt analogy, with the athlete’s salary. Finished training at 35, will be shocked if I’m still full time at 45. Also, white coat investor has been and still is a godsend.

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u/ERDocdad 9d ago

Idk, I'm doing this for 18 years (including residency) and I still am at full time. I'm burned out at times, but having 4 days off a week really helps.

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u/cerasmiles 9d ago

I made it 5 years after graduating residency/8 months after paying off loans before going part time. I love medicine, I hate medicine in the US.

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u/DrThirdOpinion 9d ago

It’s a job like any other job.

People saying it’s a passion or a calling are just trying to fuck you out of money while taking millions to the bank themselves.

I love my job and take it seriously, but I’m not coming to work if you don’t pay me what I’m worth.

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u/lil_loa_loa 9d ago

I love my job and take it seriously, but I’m not coming to work if you don’t pay me what I’m worth.

Also medicine is one of the few careers where you can expect to make less money over time. My spouse has partners who made more money doing the exact same job in the mid 1990's, despite the increased difficulty and new technologies they have to deal with.

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u/Marketmaker6969 9d ago

True but I can't imagine doing ten years of school just for money. I'd like to think its a bit of both.

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u/r5d400 9d ago

true, but I don't mean just people who want to retire early, I mean any finance subreddit. personalfinance too.

I'm not a doctor and I like my job, but like many others here I also like to make sure I will achieve FI, I don't want to be spending all my paycheck, or letting my money sit in a checking account and not compound

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u/OneHourRetiring 9d ago

As I often tell high schoolers, if you go into medicine, you need to do it because you truly love to help and care for others. If you just go in it for the money, you are going into the wrong profession. You have the noggin that can be used in other careers that make lots more money! For an OB .... that baby isn't going to wait until you have a good night sleep before s(he) decides to come out or better yet ... the world-wide pandemic!

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u/has-it-a-name 9d ago

Take people with the intelligence and drive to be a physician. Add on 8 years of school, 3-7 more years of 80 hour weeks and 200-400k of debt. That investment would give many people a similar income in whatever else they chose to do

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u/Hotpotatheaux 9d ago

What careers do you recommend?

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u/[deleted] 9d ago edited 6d ago

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u/OneHourRetiring 9d ago

anything but medicine if you want an easier path to making money (and a family life), even YouTube content developers make six figures!

But along what I do, cyber security, network engineering, cloud architect, ..., technology sector will only grow hence forth.

Other professions are growing older as well like petroleum engineering, civil engineering, etc.

Technical careers can also command six figures if one has the right certifications and skill sets.

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u/Andy802 9d ago

My father has a PhD from Dartmouth and a MS from Miami (Ohio not FL). Didn't start earning money until age 30 (doing grant funded research). Me, an engineer, was making 85% of his current salary when I hit 30, but also had been earning money since 23.

He's now teaching dental students at a decent university, and barely making 10% more than me.

The medical field might be a rewarding career, but don't get into it for the money.

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u/Lemonyclouds 9d ago

Wait, so does he have an MD? I’d say that academia is can be different from being a medical doctor in terms of compensation.

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u/homogenousmoss 9d ago

Yeah, I realized that when my family doctor after a visit said : sooo can I ask you a few questions. She described her clinic problems/revenues. I was shocked to hear that she had to put a 100k a year of her personal money to keep the place afloat. On the other hand, it did explain why it was the nicest clinic I had ever been in. I told her to hire a profesional administrator. Six months later they had doubled the number of doctors they could fit into the building and she sold it as soon as she could now that it was making money.

Its Canada, so generally there’s no really nice upscale clinic with plush sofa in the waiting room, a huge play room for kids, complimentary drinks etc. They’re all paid the same rate by the gov by visit, so anything spent on look/comfort is lost money.

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u/Eddie_078 9d ago

Financially illiterate doctors is such a common trope wow.

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u/lighthorseontherunn 9d ago

A fun report on the financial status of doctors. Half have a net worth of more than $1 million (age breakdown not given) but an interesting read nonetheless

https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2020-compensation-debt-worth-6012988

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u/savetgebees 9d ago

Doctoritis. They struggle for so long and when they finally get their payday they just go crazy with spending believing they deserve it since they worked so hard. Which they probably do, but within reason. If you’ve dreamed of that Tesla or Mercedes while pulling those all nighters go get it but maybe hold off on the dream house for a few years while you pay down debt and increase income.

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u/sevenbeef 9d ago

We’re here. All three of us.

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u/RustyCraftyloki 9d ago

Most make enough to not even worry about being that responsible. Many come from very privileged backgrounds. The rest of us are climbing out of a pit deep enough that sea level is a mt Everest away.

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u/Obecalp86 9d ago

True. I don’t care about RE, but what I don’t get is why most people don’t care about FI. If one thing has made a huge impression on me, it is that life can take a turn for the worse in an instant - the 30-something diagnosed with a terminal disease, the 40-something diagnosed with a chronic condition, limiting his/her ability to work partially or completely. FI means peace of mind - I will be ok no matter what, and more importantly my family will be ok if I’m no longer around.

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u/SaguaroCactuses 9d ago

Life and disability insurance mitigates that.

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u/AlaskaFI 9d ago

A joke in the medical community is that it's where smart people go who are bad at math.

I've seen a lot of truth to that

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u/Bucket_Monster 9d ago

That's funny. I wanted to go to med school but I'm really good at math so I'm getting my PhD in that instead.

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u/SaguaroCactuses 9d ago

I think it's because once they're licensed, they already have most of the perks of financial independence. They can easily move anywhere they want and still have a job. If they want overtime, they can get it. If they want to work less hours, there are places that will give them that flexibility, like instead of earning 300k a year, work 10-15 hours a week and earn 100k a year. If they want to work well into their 80s, they can.

Most of us don't have that flexibility/freedom, so we need to get it through financial independence. Also, most doctors say they find their job fulfilling, so it's not like they're in a rush to retire.

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u/Porencephaly 9d ago

There’s a bunch of us in r/fatFIRE

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u/r5d400 9d ago

I don't hang out at r/fatFIRE much but didn't get the impression of many doctors when I wander there occasionally. looots of business owners. which is not surprising I guess

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u/Porencephaly 9d ago

I mean we aren’t the majority there but most physicians should be capable of fatFIRE NW by the time they retire so I’d say I see more docs there than in r/financialindependence which feels like 85% SWEs.

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u/subzerothrowaway123 9d ago

Its because reddit users are relatively young. Most doctors I know don't even use reddit. Mid-career docs are in their 40s-50s and many have no social media presence much less an interest in reddit. I see many of them on whitecoatinvestor or bogleheads. Reddit is for the younger crowd.

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u/burts_beads 9d ago

I used to work at a medical school. I'd heard from several that they kind of feel an obligation to contribute to the field for a long stretch and getting out early was kind of a waste of the medical school spot they took. Some of them are very passionate about the work they do and aren't necessarily looking to get out ASAP.

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u/No-Shake-1916 9d ago

A lot of physicians are probably either too busy for Reddit or simply have more engaging things to do. Reddit tends to attract people with decent downtime during work, and doctors don’t have much of that.

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u/USBdongle6727 9d ago

I might be a bit of an outlier, but I’m a 20-something year old finishing up my last year of medical school but my portfolio is almost at 8 figures just from some risky gambles and a small start-up I cofounded before starting undergrad. As such, I’ve been fortunate enough to be able to pay off my tuition up front. That being said, even after residency, I would probably still identify as a trader on this sub, because that’s where the bulk of my finances came/will come from. Aside from that, most of my peers know next to nothing about finances and are inundated in student loans debts among other things so thats also probably why.

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u/SnowmanRandom 9d ago

That is because becoming FIRE is super easy once you are a doctor. Us normal people have to be much more creative to get rich.

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u/Smb1511 7d ago

I am an Orthopedic and trauma surgeon from Germany. We make good money, but have to pay high taxes and social security. Most of my colleagues don't invest in stocks, ETFs or real estate and just blow the money or give it to a bank for near zero interest. There are a lot of 60 plus physicians working nights in hospitals as they didn't invest or save enough money. Or they have 5 children and 3 ex wives who want money. I started investing with my first pay check, so I don't have to work after 50 to meet ends

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u/PNWTurtle 9d ago

The main difference is engineers graduate with modest debt that can usually be paid off in the first year or so with their near six figure starting salaries. So then they immediately have this disposable income at 20. So often these types are already looking into the FIRE path.

Doctors have crippling levels of debt and shit pay until they're well into their 30s. At which point they generally want to live a little and enjoy the pay they finally get... Meanwhile, the engineers are already hitting their first million or so in savings.

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u/Leadhead87 9d ago

Doc too. I agree with everyone that docs are super shitty at finances. However, I think I’m one of the rare ones that’s good with money at my age (that is, AFTER I stupidly took out all the loans totaling up to 500K with years of interest). What happened was I was extremely abused in residency and saw the horrors of being a doc really early…and how disgusting attendings can really be behind the scenes…so I decided to find a way out by learning all I could about finances and investing. Both of us are recently out of training (wife is a doc too with 200K loans, wants to get out ASAP as well), but we still rent, drive old cars, and put 90%+ of our income into paying off loans. We put our entire signing bonuses into tesla stock (still a wonderful choice however I didn’t know about GME at the time!!!) while our colleagues all bought Tesla’s, other luxuries, and McMansions immediately and are ramping up their lifestyles REAL QUICK. One also bought a boat straight out of training. Another can’t go out unless the rating of the restaurant is at least $$$. Hoping to get out of this rat race by age 40 with a lifestyle I’m happy with that is lower than what it was in Med school.

Lessons:

  1. Recognize as soon as you can the abuse in residency…or for that matter any field of high ambition. Your overlords all know you’re in debt and will fuck you hard without repercussions. Use that treatment instead to learn be the best doc you can be and bring your power back by learning your finances and getting out of debt. It’s much easier to say ‘fuck off’ as an attending if your not neck deep in debt. Or better yet, in a position to FIRE. Do not respond to your treatment through instant gratification of the lifestyle creep, as rising debt will only give your power back to your abusers. Little known fact that doctors have a 50% higher suicide rate than gen pop.

  2. Better yet, don’t be a fucking doctor in the US. Despite the debt and value we bring, we can be sued to hell by a random Karen for the littlest thing. Even if we do everything correctly.

  3. The American medical system from the provider side is a giant Pyramid scheme.

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u/[deleted] 9d ago edited 1d ago

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u/Leadhead87 9d ago edited 9d ago

Sure thing!

1) All residents are abused, just that not all realize it. I think it’s present in all countries. Attendings can scream, humiliate. and put more and more work on you and you’ll do it cuz you need a job. Any complaining and it’ll affect your letters of rec. You’re supposed to be grateful cuz you’re at least learning. There was actually a Supreme Court case against the Mayo Clinic in 2011 since the Mayo Clinic classified their residents as ‘students’ and not ‘employees,’ thereby denying certain benefits. My wife is OBGYN, so in residency with the hours she worked, she made about $4 an hour post tax (since resident salaries are basically all the same, you cannot negotiate). Other examples include public humiliation, verbal abuse, constant screaming, and forcing hours of extra work beyond your assigned work day. Depending on the specialty, training is between 3-10 years post Med school. You bet attendings will milk you for every second. I’m not sure you understand what it feels like to wake up at 4am every day working 16 hours a day for years for little pay. 4 days off a month. Why do attendings (not all) abuse residents? I think it comes down to intergenerational envy. ‘If I had it bad, so will everyone else! If I didn’t have a good workplace environment, no one can!’

2) I’d go to Canada or the UK. At least little to no student loans. Also, I had a cointern who did a year in England. He was shocked by what he had to do here. He said ‘I’m wearing a white coat, why am I doing non doctor things?’ Apparently in England, as a doctor, you’re just a doctor, not a social worker/janitor/nurse/food server/scheduler.

3) Medical hierarchy is powerful, difficult to upend, and is top heavy. It also does. It question those at the top of the hierarchy. The top attendings work very little and find ways to dump all work on the middle attendings, and so on and so on and eventually, the residents (if you’re in academics) do all of the work for very little money. Especially senior residents who are attending level in skill but make below minimum wage. I didn’t want to go into academics since I didn’t want to support that kind of system. Private practice attendings are very much similar to my mindset, however there are lots of toxic PP’s (mostly larger groups) where the top guys are ferocious in keeping their super high salaries and even higher time off.

4) lol, I’m kinda the same. Crypto, gme, amc, and Tesla are my drugs. If you can get into your state school (if you have one), that would be so clutch since it’s much much cheaper. If you have savings at your age, use it and take out as little living expense loans as you can (they’ll offer it). I had to take the max since I went in at age 23, came from a poor family. Look into PSLF…if you’re residency is a non-profit hospital, then your residency years will count towards the 10 years. Avoid the Caribbean schools as they charge an exhorbant amount and try to weed you out. For residency, I’ve heard NYC is the most abusive. Avoid unless you like that.

5) early retirement. Work doesn’t define us. We have a ton of hobbies, and an awesome 2 year old. Medicine at least brought us together and eventually to get married, so I don’t see my years as a waste. We also went to Med school in New Orleans, the most fun city ever in your 20’s.

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u/[deleted] 9d ago edited 1d ago

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u/Leadhead87 8d ago edited 8d ago

I’m not sure about going abroad after the US, but I would imagine it’s totally possible. Even though it’s super expensive I think a US degree is highly recognized. I do radiology, so there are companies that allow you to practice abroad and still make US money. You can only give final reads for the state where you hold a license, so it say you’re living in Europe you won’t be able to give final, but you can give prelim and still make a lot of money, and take advantage of all the European benefits like healthcare, school for your kids, incredibly lower gun violence.

Sounds like you’ve done your research. Don’t let me discourage you! It is a wonderful field and I do feel good at times helping someone…especially when that help needs the years of training I had. You may be a ton tougher than be, lol. I’m sure you’ll do great. Give every rotation your all in Med school, although it’s still really hard to know what is best for you. A lot of people switch specialties all the time, usually to a better lifestyle. Rads has a ton of recovered surgeons ;) Med school is also super fun. Don’t miss out, you’re paying anyway.

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u/yubathetuba 9d ago

Physician assistant

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u/TexLH 9d ago

Assistant TO the physician

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u/No-Werewolf-5461 9d ago

how much do Physician make , do they make more than $300k/yr

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u/Obecalp86 9d ago

Peds/psych as low as $150k/year, surgical specialties/derm/ophthalmology “easily”$400-500k/year. A few physicians make $500-1000k/year. Average probably $300k (just guesstimating here).

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u/DrBabs 9d ago

Nah, I would say average is probably $250k. It’s a super tough gig and many people end up having to work part time to stay in it. But even if you are part time, the number of hours we work each week will still be above what a normal person considers part time. I’m full time and just hit hour 72 this week of work alone and now I get to switch to a swing shift and work 2 more days. Even if I’m part time, it’s not like I can not work as hard. If I miss something then I can be sued. It doesn’t matter if I don’t work that day, I still have to check up on labs and tests that I ordered a few weeks ago but due to scheduling the patient is just now getting. It’s this kind of stress that ruins the job for many people.

Covid has also highlighted how much a large portion of the population hates us and has essentially caused rapid burnout.

And the high paying specialities take years to get into them. All the while paying on the horrible 8-9% interest rates of student loans these days.

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u/Tay_ma45 9d ago

WOW. 72 hours? May I ask what specialty you’re in?

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u/DrBabs 9d ago

Internal medicine, I’m a hospitalist.

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u/sevenbeef 9d ago

The key isn’t $300k/yr.

It’s $200/hr.

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u/No-Werewolf-5461 9d ago

I make less, I need to start my own tech bro ai/bigdata/green-tech/vegan/gluten-free/ startup

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u/rramzi 9d ago

Depends on speciality, geographic location and practice setting.

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u/Bluepuck03 9d ago

I've been thinking about a career change and talked with my counselor about it, he said he wouldn't and I probably wouldn't like it. I'm mid 30's with several kids.

Think it would be too much?

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u/nottaylorgreer 9d ago

Yes. Honestly. You’d miss out on 7+ years of your kids’ lives in training IF you have all the college credits you need and can get good scores on the MCAT. Then most people work super hard the first few years wherever they end up. So that’s a decade, the first 3/4 of which you’re paying through the nose for, then making a pittance. You can “help people” with many other degrees that are less time consuming and expensive.

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u/Bluepuck03 9d ago

Thanks for the honest answer! It was one of my top three choices growing up. I went another direction and still help people plenty. I definitely don't want to miss out on my kids lives. They are my world right now when everything else has been flipped upside down. I have a few other things I am looking at that are a tad more flexible.

Those childhood "dreams" always longer in the back of my head though!

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u/shotcaller77 9d ago

Physician here as well. ID. Work in Sweden though so pay here is just over $100k a year.

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u/keralaindia 9d ago

pay here is just over $100k a year.

Is that considered high in Sweden?

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u/shotcaller77 9d ago

Pretty much, yes. I mean I’m sure people in finance and it is above or at the same level. I can provide for a wife and two kids with that salary. And still save money each month. I still think that it’s too low of pay for the job I’m doing tbh. Takes about 15 years to go from student to specialist. Phd on top of that. Can’t say I’m super happy with the pay :)

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u/keralaindia 8d ago

Respect. More than us residents in the US, but about half of what ID attendings make. ID especially pediatric ID is criminally underpaid.