r/financialindependence • u/fidgit86 • 9d ago

What do you do that you earn six figures?

It seems like a lot of people make a lot of money and it seems like I’m missing out on something. So those of you that do, whats your occupation that pays so well?

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u/Obecalp86 9d ago

Many docs are financially illiterate which may be why they’re underrepresented. Also, many don’t start making a high salary until mid-30’s. Many of my colleagues go straight for the million dollar house and expensive car while they’re not maxing out payments on their $200k+ student loans. Can’t remember the exact number, but a large minority of doctors in their 60’s have a net worth <$1mil, which should be “impossible” for individuals making $200-500k/year (or sometimes more).

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u/MrMudPhud 9d ago

Yup. Doctors are financially illiterate, and because of that we get taken advantage of. "Oh, $300K/year to be an ICU doc? That's way better than $130K/year as a software engineer." Then, hospital administrators and med schools look at the situation and go, "So how far can we push these kids using salary as justification?" The answer is about 10 years of missed income and $400K in debt.

I have tried over the years, on many occasions, to explain opportunity cost to other med students/physicians. You can literally make all the sacrifices of a doctor through your mid-30s and come out ahead if you go into almost any other decently high paying field that doesn't require tons of post-graduate training. People on these forums see that easily. They understand how an extra ten years of compounding interest will dramatically change any investment portfolio, but if I make this point on a physician subreddit I get bombarded with downvotes and non-quantitative hunches. The only reason physicians are richer in real life is that almost no one takes advantage of their retirement savings while young. The wealth building opportunity is exactly the same. Engineers overwhelmingly choose a higher QOL than what med students have.

People here of course understand it. If I told you that basically any professional would spend the first 10 years of their career spending $25K and living like a med student/resident, you would all tell me that they would become rich. Most people don't get this. They just see salary.

A lot of the time it comes down to it just not mattering. Most doctors don't do it for the money and wind up fine. They get to spend on big purchases and that's what they really wanted. Then they enjoy a more modest retirement, and that's also fine.

Also, the number of doctors making >$500K/year is also pretty low. Increasingly doctors are employees. Like in any industry, there are some outliers, but the days of $500K+ are dwindling.

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u/AssaultOfTruth 9d ago

Great post. Moreover the average software engineer doesn’t work anywhere near as hard as a med student. There is also no chance of being $300k in debt almost finished it and...oh crap mental breakdown or health event precluding completion. There are people who are not doctors but have a lot of med school debt.

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u/Do_things_wrong 9d ago edited 9d ago

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man... I take the MCAT in a week. had some personal finance classes in undergrad though so hopefully something stuck.

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u/curiouspda12345 9d ago

Eh don't let this guy scare you that much. There are a lot of good reddits even a doc one (r/whitecoatinvestor) that provide basic tools on how to not fuck up and survive your middle years and old and can't have young people fun years.

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u/thenameinaz 9d ago

+1 on white coat investor. TLDR: Basically live like you’re in residency and med school until you pay off your loans.

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u/WoodenYogurtcloset86 9d ago

Med school was fun (make friends), residency sucks even if you make friends. But, almost done with residency and things are looking better. I’m glad I did this rather than some tech job working for random x company. Even if you’re employed by random x hospital, you’re always helping a patient directly

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u/VascularOlive 9d ago

Just tested on 7/30. Browsing through these threads. Hopefully living my entire life in poverty doesn’t make me want to let loose immediately after I get decent money.

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u/[deleted] 9d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/c00lAsAMoose 9d ago

If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you? I’m in the same boat but retaking the mcat in January and trying to figure out if I’m 100% in on medicine.

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u/coyotecantspell 9d ago

Specialty matters too

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u/Charming_Amphibian37 9d ago

Yep, i count going to med school my biggest mistake in my life and convince friend’s children to study sth else. The overall pay is higher, but not enough to compansate this much effort.

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u/MrMudPhud 9d ago

Absolutely. The grind/competition is absurd.

Working this hard while being even remotely intelligent in any other field will have you near the top in no time. My old CEO, a former bigwig at Merck, tried to recruit me to the business side of pharma. She basically said, "I'll write your letter, you'll get a job in research, transition to management, get your MBA part time, and head off to business development."

I'm really happy with medicine/research as a calling, but it's highly unsatisfying to be called average and essentially get lectured at by MBAs on how to be more useful. Definitely looking into doing the medical director track in pharma. Gotta score that name brand residency first.

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u/GrassNova 9d ago

Meh, I'm not sure if it's that simple. One of the upsides of being a doctor is it's basically a set path, you know almost exactly what you need to do to get ahead. In undergrad it's GPA, research, MCAT, and ECs. In med school it's about getting a good mark on your Step I/IIs, recs again, etc. You don't have to focus much effort on figuring out what you need to do, or waste a lot of time going in the wrong direction, but get to pour all that time and hard work on clear tasks and stepping stones.

Don't get me wrong this is all definitely difficult work, but it's not the same as other fields where there aren't very many tried and tested paths. Also being a doc and other career choices also often require different skillsets and even personalities that may not transfer over as easily as some people think.

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u/Iheartmypupper 9d ago

I got a buddy, he's been out of residency for about 3 years. he's clearing $260k/year in a low CoL area. By himself he's sitting at 5x the annual household income for the area. He gets his 401k match, and that's it. no other investing. doesn't max his 401k, doesn't do an IRA, nothing.

we're supposed to be having a talk about investing in the near future.

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u/MrMudPhud 9d ago

It's shocking when I meet young attendings who clearly have no idea what to do financially. Rent expensive apartments. Spend their whole paycheck. Etc...

I did the MD/PhD route. It's the ultimate opportunity cost sacrifice. Still I put away ~$7-8k per year making a stipend and I'm closing in on $100k NW. If I am worth more than you making 1/10th your salary, you done fucked up.

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u/Eighty-Sixed 9d ago

I am in my first attending job. My HR is surprised I am maxing out my 401k and note how proud they are of me (I am a woman in the south, I am used to pendants and being called honey, etc). Admittedly, I am playing catch up on life stuff (bought a house for 300k with 20% down, buying a car for 60k with 50% down, got married with no help from parents, reproducing) but I am almost done with student loan debt (less than 50k - I paid off over 100k during residency) at 2 years out. I do max a backdoor Roth for both of us, max my husband's 401k, contribute to HSA (but having a kid is expensive) and my husband puts 400 a month in Adobe stock (he works for them and gets it at 85%). I plan to put the tax deductible amount into a 529 account (8k) once my son is born. But then I know I need to start actually actively investing beyond the passive stuff. And for some reason it is scary to me to put it into stocks than to have it in my bank account, even though financially it makes no sense.

My husband never thought he would be in this situation and has no knowledge of things to do and wouldn't take advantage of any of it without my direction. While he makes decent money, his paychecks are small because of all of the deductions. I didn't play a huge role in his finances until we got married and now I manage all of the money. He is the first in his family to even go to college and his parents work blue collar jobs (one works at a fast food restaurant and the other assembly line) with eons of debt and no retirement savings or otherwise. I am the first doctor in my family from largely blue collar workers who rather tuck money under the mattress than trust any bank. So I am trying.

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u/Iheartmypupper 9d ago

for what it's worth, it sounds like you're killing it.

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u/flamingswordmademe 7d ago

What do you mean "invest beyond passive stuff"? If you're talking about actively managed mutual funds you definitely don't have to (and shouldn't) do that no matter what

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u/Eighty-Sixed 7d ago

No, by passive I mean money comes out of my paycheck for my 401k and I put money into a backdoor Roth once yearly but I don't put money into investments otherwise. I guess the 401k is passive in my head because it is done for me by someone else. I meant I should be actively taking extra money every month and putting it somewhere beyond my savings account each month. I have around 3-4k extra every month (and will have more soon after I come off guaranteed salary). So far it has gone to a down payment on a house, building an emergency fund, and a car. But now that we aren't saving for anything specific, I need to do something with the extra money because the tiny bit of interest it accrues isn't cutting it.

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u/flamingswordmademe 7d ago

Gotcha. You're right it is more active in that way, but all you have to do is create a taxable account at an online brokerage and invest just like you do in your 401k and IRA. do automatic transfers and it'll be autopilot just like your retirement accounts

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u/2Confuse 9d ago

Yup. Hugely unpopular opinion to the masses, but we deserve to be paid more, ESPECIALLY in residency.

We have lesser “equivalents” in the work force essentially making double at half the hours. Wtf is up with that.

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u/Chapped_Assets 9d ago

Yea when I was a surgery resident I think we calculated it out to like $15 an hour or some shit.

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u/AeneasSonofAnchises 9d ago

“Lesser equivalents” smh……

And doctors complain that people thing they’re arrogant

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u/2Confuse 9d ago edited 9d ago

This is in regard to people with only 500 hours of shadowing being paid more than MDs with ~6000 hours of real clinical experience and actually difficult board exams.

Residency is the hospital’s excuse to not pay MDs or DOs what they’re actually worth.

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u/Ppalgans 5d ago

Tbh I don’t think it should be “pay more” but “work less”. The amount of time most doctors work is absolutely ridiculous. How do you expect a human being to take care of another one, who is ill, if they’re tired out and lacking sleep? The whole system needs a change istg

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u/2Confuse 5d ago

I am fine with either honestly. Medicine gets humane or medicine becomes fairly paid again for ALL specialties.

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u/bluepaintbrush 9d ago

This is for sure true of people who want to be doctors for the money. But the ones I know who toughed it out have a more intrinsic relationship with being a physician and knowing they can help people in that way. So they get more reward out of the role than an SWE for example.

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u/MrMudPhud 9d ago

Absolutely. One of the best things about adopting a FIRE mindset is acknowledging that you can accomplish the same thing with different incomes. When you stop worrying about "more" and start worrying about "enough" you can honestly ask yourself if you'd rather do one career vs. another.

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u/italiabrain 9d ago

Yeah agree with this in general, but there are some of us who vaguely know what we’re doing. There are also some capital accumulation / tax arbitrage things you can do if you’re willing to bleed off $50k+/yr of lifestyle money that only make sense over a certain yearly income (effective tax rate).

I broke $100k my second year of residency with ER moonlighting. It wasn’t close to the highest paying place, but it was worth it with malpractice completely covered and willingness to schedule around whatever rotation I was on.

I also stopped at a 3yr IM program to do night hospital work. I get to do a fair amount of open ICU, my own bedside procedures, and I make more than some of my classmates who went through another 3yrs for Pulm fellowship. I do work some extra shifts, but my lowest year has been $420 and I actually prefer nights anyway.

The people who are really getting screwed are the people who are actually underpaid on top of the debt. Our in-hospital PharmDs work a similar 7-on 7-off to our hospital docs but make 1/3 the hourly, no productivity, no bonuses. They actually need the PharmD and the ones I work with also did a 2yr inpatient/emergency pharmacy residency.

Then there are the degrees that never should have been made doctorates. You don’t need a doctorate as has been normalized for PT or upcoming OT. It’s crazy how fast it advanced too. Lots of managers of current departments who graduated 15 years ago are doing the job fine with a bachelors.

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u/deathnow098 9d ago

It depends on doctor's salaries really... if you're right that there is no difference between them and software engineers salaries, it's obviously insane.

When I google the salaries, tho, software engineers make like $280k at the top and MDs, esp surgeons, seem to make $400-$800k. If those are real numbers, you can run an interest calculator even if the software engineer was living pretty frugally for 10 years (and their whole career), they wouldn't ultimately make as much as the doctors, although it would be way closer than most people think probably, yeah.

If MDs are only making $300k, then they're obviously much worse off, tho.

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u/MrMudPhud 9d ago

I've done the math. Basically if you have the engineer living as frugally as the physician until they're done residency, then you have the physician live as frugally as the engineer thereafter (so equivalent lifestyles) the engineer comes out ahead of PCPs at ~$130k average income. For specialists it's much harder for the engineer to overtake. It's more like $200k, which is tough to average even at FAANG.

For anything other than finance, it's basically impossible to beat a rural orthopod. You'd be making close to seven figures in like... Nebraska.

This all assumes they work until 65 though. Personally I think the chances of physicians making this kind of money until 65 these days are slim to none. If I still need the money, which I probably won't given I invest properly and don't experience massive lifestyle creep, I would have to consider a mid-career switch to Medical Director positions in pharma/biotech.

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u/underengineered 9d ago

I've had this discussion with friends. MD vs Mechanical Engineer in the building industry.

The engineering degree is done in 4 years. You're 22 with minimal debt making $50k/yr. Bybthe time the future MD graduates medical school the mech engineer gets their PE. I hit 6 figures in year 6.

By the time the MD graduates medical school and gets out of residency they have 6 figures of debt and a lost opportunity cost of around $750k vs the engineer. If the MD wants a really big salary then they'll take more time to specialize.

Their salary will eventually overcome the typical engineer but not before they are in their 40s. And if you go into family practice or pediatrics you may never catch up.

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u/OneHourRetiring 9d ago edited 9d ago

Problem that most don't know is that docs are also burden with high insurance (namely to fend off lawsuits). Younger brother is an OB/GYN and at 54, he should have been retired, but he is still at it .... paying off the house, the five cars (for three persons household!), bad real estates investment, high malpractice insurance premiums, and tons of machines including the da Vinci Surgical System that didn't pan out (he had to sell it at substantially reduced price to local hospital, but at least he is the leading authority to operate with it ... LOL!)

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u/Rnaofo 9d ago

Why on earth would he purchase a Da Vinci Surgical System if he’s an OB/GYN? It’s not like the system can assist with delivery like the curved paddle that handled Padme’s newborn in Star Wars.

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u/OneHourRetiring 9d ago edited 9d ago

He was doing surgeries like laparoscopic on the gynecology side of the practice. This was when he wanted cut back on delivering the kiddos. He didn’t get enough cases to pay for the couple of millions that it costs.

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u/spald01 9d ago

Medicine is also a career you really shouldn't be going into if your goal is to make a bunch of money in and then retire early. If you're in school for an extra 10+ years to be a specialized physician, you're hopefully doing it because you want to.

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u/[deleted] 9d ago edited 9d ago

[deleted]

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u/Urojet 9d ago

Very apt analogy, with the athlete’s salary. Finished training at 35, will be shocked if I’m still full time at 45. Also, white coat investor has been and still is a godsend.

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u/ERDocdad 9d ago

Idk, I'm doing this for 18 years (including residency) and I still am at full time. I'm burned out at times, but having 4 days off a week really helps.

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u/cerasmiles 9d ago

I made it 5 years after graduating residency/8 months after paying off loans before going part time. I love medicine, I hate medicine in the US.

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u/DrThirdOpinion 9d ago

It’s a job like any other job.

People saying it’s a passion or a calling are just trying to fuck you out of money while taking millions to the bank themselves.

I love my job and take it seriously, but I’m not coming to work if you don’t pay me what I’m worth.

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u/lil_loa_loa 9d ago

I love my job and take it seriously, but I’m not coming to work if you don’t pay me what I’m worth.

Also medicine is one of the few careers where you can expect to make less money over time. My spouse has partners who made more money doing the exact same job in the mid 1990's, despite the increased difficulty and new technologies they have to deal with.

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u/Marketmaker6969 9d ago

True but I can't imagine doing ten years of school just for money. I'd like to think its a bit of both.

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u/r5d400 9d ago

true, but I don't mean just people who want to retire early, I mean any finance subreddit. personalfinance too.

I'm not a doctor and I like my job, but like many others here I also like to make sure I will achieve FI, I don't want to be spending all my paycheck, or letting my money sit in a checking account and not compound

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u/OneHourRetiring 9d ago

As I often tell high schoolers, if you go into medicine, you need to do it because you truly love to help and care for others. If you just go in it for the money, you are going into the wrong profession. You have the noggin that can be used in other careers that make lots more money! For an OB .... that baby isn't going to wait until you have a good night sleep before s(he) decides to come out or better yet ... the world-wide pandemic!

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u/has-it-a-name 9d ago

Take people with the intelligence and drive to be a physician. Add on 8 years of school, 3-7 more years of 80 hour weeks and 200-400k of debt. That investment would give many people a similar income in whatever else they chose to do

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u/Hotpotatheaux 9d ago

What careers do you recommend?

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u/[deleted] 9d ago edited 6d ago

[deleted]

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u/OneHourRetiring 9d ago

anything but medicine if you want an easier path to making money (and a family life), even YouTube content developers make six figures!

But along what I do, cyber security, network engineering, cloud architect, ..., technology sector will only grow hence forth.

Other professions are growing older as well like petroleum engineering, civil engineering, etc.

Technical careers can also command six figures if one has the right certifications and skill sets.

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u/Andy802 9d ago

My father has a PhD from Dartmouth and a MS from Miami (Ohio not FL). Didn't start earning money until age 30 (doing grant funded research). Me, an engineer, was making 85% of his current salary when I hit 30, but also had been earning money since 23.

He's now teaching dental students at a decent university, and barely making 10% more than me.

The medical field might be a rewarding career, but don't get into it for the money.

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u/Lemonyclouds 9d ago

Wait, so does he have an MD? I’d say that academia is can be different from being a medical doctor in terms of compensation.

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u/homogenousmoss 9d ago

Yeah, I realized that when my family doctor after a visit said : sooo can I ask you a few questions. She described her clinic problems/revenues. I was shocked to hear that she had to put a 100k a year of her personal money to keep the place afloat. On the other hand, it did explain why it was the nicest clinic I had ever been in. I told her to hire a profesional administrator. Six months later they had doubled the number of doctors they could fit into the building and she sold it as soon as she could now that it was making money.

Its Canada, so generally there’s no really nice upscale clinic with plush sofa in the waiting room, a huge play room for kids, complimentary drinks etc. They’re all paid the same rate by the gov by visit, so anything spent on look/comfort is lost money.

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u/Eddie_078 9d ago

Financially illiterate doctors is such a common trope wow.

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u/lighthorseontherunn 9d ago

A fun report on the financial status of doctors. Half have a net worth of more than $1 million (age breakdown not given) but an interesting read nonetheless

https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2020-compensation-debt-worth-6012988

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u/savetgebees 9d ago

Doctoritis. They struggle for so long and when they finally get their payday they just go crazy with spending believing they deserve it since they worked so hard. Which they probably do, but within reason. If you’ve dreamed of that Tesla or Mercedes while pulling those all nighters go get it but maybe hold off on the dream house for a few years while you pay down debt and increase income.