r/financialindependence 33/35 SI2K | SR: lol nanny | GI.GO% BroFI 25d ago

“The Great Resignation”, Walden, and FIRE - a fantastic article by Cal Newport ties it together FI Lifestyle

This got posted in the Daily by /u/Stunt_Driver, but I thought it deserved its own writeup. There was a fantastic short piece in The New Yorker yesterday titled “Why Are So Many Knowledge Workers Quitting? The coronavirus pandemic threw everyone into Walden Pond,” by Cal Newport. It’s a relatively shallow but poignant look at the stories of knowledge workers who have discovered what (to me) is the soul of the older-school FIRE themes - basic minimalism, and a grounded sense of the true meaning of “enough.”

He lays out a few vignettes that are emblematic of “The Great Resignation,” the mass exodus of knowledge workers from traditional employment during COVID:

In early June, the Labor Department released a report that revealed a record four million Americans had quit their jobs in April alone—part of a phenomenon that news outlets called “The Great Resignation.”

They share similar themes, of individuals rediscovering what is important and how little the luxuries and frivolities brought to their lives, then deciding exactly how much was enough for them. He ties that back directly to Walden, which I admittedly haven’t read in probably 15 years.

Newport calls out that Thoreau was far more quantitative and analytical than he remembered from his first read:

The first and longest chapter in “Walden” is titled “Economy,” and it features multiple data tables that catalog every expense related to Thoreau’s time in the woods near the town of Concord, Massachusetts. The cost of the materials required to build Thoreau’s cabin, in case you’re wondering, sums to twenty-eight dollars and twelve and a half cents.

This obviously ties nicely in to this community, with our spreadsheets tracking our essential and nonessential expenditures and our focus on cutting out the unnecessary (Thoreau’s Venetian blinds and shiny copper pumps) to spare time, space, and resources for the essential.

I particularly enjoyed the discussion of the marginal cost vs marginal benefit argument, and it echoed one I frequently see in the Daily Discussion Thread.:

The key to Thoreau’s “new economics,” to use a term by the philosopher Frédéric Gros, was to demand an accounting for the implicit price of this extra effort. “The cost of a thing is the amount of what I will call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run,” Thoreau writes. Venetian blinds are nice, but if they require you to work extra acres of land, which in turn requires extra hours of labor from you per week to maintain, are they nice enough to justify all of that squandered life? Wouldn’t you get similar pleasure from walking through the woods and staring at ice?

Overall, I think this is probably the best piece of contemporary writing I’ve seen about the so-called “FIRE Movement,” and it does us the great service of not even mentioning the name.

EDIT: Y'all seem really, really focused on whether or not people are actually retiring more quickly. The author himself notes this may be a temporary trend, and this may simply be reflective of a reshuffling. The far bigger point he's trying to make is one about mindfulness - one about an intentional life.

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u/Slammedtgs 25d ago

One interesting trend I’ve seen in my part of the world, is that this great resignation is going to be a boom for offshoring a lot of position.

In my company, we’ve had 5-10 highly paid folks leave this year. No attempt was made to hire locally, those roles have been off-shored to low cost Asian countries at comfortable US wages. I honestly feel this will bite us as a society a decade down the road, but for now, everyone basks in their stock market gains.

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u/telladifferentstory 25d ago

My company also hires offshore but we have not had good luck with the engineering work coming from offshore. We've had to redo a lot.

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u/kaleisawful 25d ago

You get what you pay for, is what I've found.

On the flip side, top tier talent isn't going to take a pay cut if they move to a cheaper location. There's so much demand that they can easily find a company willing to pay SF/NY salary.

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u/TerribleEntrepreneur 25d ago edited 25d ago

Exactly. My latest job is globally remote but will continue to pay me an SF salary. Most of the companies I spoke to while interviewing didn’t really care where I worked from, and didn’t try to adjust pay to local rates.

They just wanted someone they thought was good and was willing to pay what they would have paid anyway.

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u/diskiller 25d ago

What company? Linkedin will adjust your salary based on location (down to the zip code!!!) just as Google will. I am looking to change and get out of The Bay Area.

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u/TerribleEntrepreneur 25d ago

A lot don’t. You only need one offer that doesn’t to get the rest to snap out of it.

Some companies; Zillow, Reddit, Fast, Brex, etc.

Some of them don’t think about “national scales” rather just beating competing offers.

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u/RichestMangInBabylon stereotypical STEM 25d ago

Yep. I have lots of coworkers in India and they’re all great. They’re also paid very highly for that region, and are actually our employees and not some outsourced contractor. It’s still cheaper by about 50% compared to hiring in the US but undoubtedly much more expensive than it could have been.

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u/someHumanMidwest 24d ago

I am a bit envious of that. Has your org had a long term presence there? My experience has been very much 'get what you pay for', although I will say that if its a job that doesn't require creativity/ambiguity that the results are better.

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u/RichestMangInBabylon stereotypical STEM 24d ago

I think it’s been maybe six years since we opened our India offices. It was a bit rough for a couple years but once we found good managers that could work closer to western norms it came together. I do think we’re paying top of the market there so we are getting what we pay for, relative to the country.

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u/Majek1990 25d ago

Yup - especially now where you have to pay great rates for offshore talent. It is obviously not as high as onshore but it is not cheap!

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u/Slammedtgs 25d ago

I agree with, talking with a company in a VCOL area and company and RSU are higher than my current comp/RSU for essentially a lateral role. The HCOL areas will adjust too.

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u/escalatortwit 25d ago

This is what we've found time and time again on the macro level, but the higher ups in my corp still want to push for this.

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u/brain_fog_expert 25d ago

A company I worked at offshored a bunch of jobs. Their work product was so horrendous that I jumped ship before the inevitable explosion. Most CEOs are now more aware that non-US "contractors" are a huge risk not worth taking.

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u/RothIRALadder 10.5% 25d ago

All of the good international technical workers are... in America. Also I don't know why people keep pretending outsourcing is a new concept, or that it works for white collar work.

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u/seriouslyandy [ 20% FI | 35% SR | 2036 Target ] 25d ago

Yeah, I think this is the obvious one people miss. 40%-50% of my coworkers in the US are Chinese or Indian. When we outsource something to China or India they're never as good as my US coworkers.

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u/zyzzyvavyzzyz 25d ago

I’ve worked with some truly amazing developers in India & China, but they are usually gone within 6 months because they are amazing developers and are using the local shops as a springboard to get to Canada/USA or to start their own company. The only real luck we’ve had is opening an actual branch office there and paying decent wages. It’s still cheaper overall but requires a huge initial outlay and has a large managerial drag on the local organization. I see this happening more for larger corporations but smaller ones will find it difficult.

I should also note I’ve worked on projects where we’ve been completely screwed over by an offshore provider. The risks are real.

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u/dblake13 25d ago

This is just not true. Some of my most competent and hardest working coworkers are overseas in lower income countries. I can understand why people would have your view (I used to), but when companies actually put effort into interviewing and training overseas employees, they're just as good as anyone else (because we're all just people at the end of the day). I have employees that want to go fully remote and are now competing with people overseas that will fight tooth and nail to make half as much money. Outsourcing jobs overseas is going to make some major impacts in the coming decades.

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u/ASYNCASAURUS_REX 25d ago

Eventually those overseas guys realize that they're being underpaid in the global marketplace.

Ultimately the quest to hire cheap overseas ppl results in shitty work. Good hiring practices might fight it off for a bit like you say, but there's no escaping the fact that good workers are expensive in the long run.

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u/Slammedtgs 25d ago

But in the short term the cheap offshore labor will continue to put a ceiling in wages in developed nations. Honestly, I don’t see a problem with it. It’s simple economics.

If you find good people on low cost countries, you pay to retain them.

We even offer RSUs to the really good ones.

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u/ASYNCASAURUS_REX 25d ago

I guess I'd have to see proof to buy that their wages are putting a ceiling on ours. I can see where it's plausible but it's a bit much for me to swallow on faith.

I agree it's not that bad. I can see where it'd be devastating for commodity labor but for someone who's skilled in a field that's hard to master, it's not much of a worry. And in reality we're competing against everyone else globally anyway. There's no point in pretending otherwise.

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u/superfakesuperfake 24d ago

this is my experience too. I had to put in the training effort and checkin with them daily.

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u/aplanefan 24d ago

This doesn’t match my experience at all. I have seen some pretty shoddy work (not to mention some ethically questionable practices) from my overseas counter parts. I work for a very high paying company (both in the US and abroad). Obviously past performance is not a predictor of future results, but it means that something would have to really change before that’s gonna happen.

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u/Slammedtgs 25d ago

It’s not a new concept, but it’s certainly expanding to areas once thought “safe”

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u/nkdeck07 25d ago

Seriously, we are consistently running into issues with the off shore teams at my company oh AND THEY ARE ALSO QUITTING AS ASTOUNDING RATES. They've been trying this since the 90's, it doesn't work like they claim it does.

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u/kaleisawful 25d ago edited 25d ago

Our company has tried to offshore with pretty disastrous results. Anything remotely technical, creative or otherwise high-skill is nearly impossible to outsource/offshore.

If highly paid US jobs can be easily shipped off to Asia, then those people were probably way overpaid to start with.

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u/milehigh73a About to pull the plug 25d ago

I have seen offshore from several companies for several types of roles and in several geographies.

Sometimes it works. Most of the time if it does work, it doesn't start out working.

What I saw the best luck was when we had a US based employee from the region go back to their country of origin and start the function. The stuff without a known lead in country is unbelieveable. We uncovered a slew of fake workers, and people unqualified plus some weird job sharing thing.

I also saw that the biggest issue is making sure you can communicate with the offshore team. Makes India a nice fit but India has gotten expensive. We had good luck at my last job with the ukraine, the time zone angle was a lot easier plus they didn't mind working until 7 pm, so you could get a few hours without staying up to ungodly hours of the night.

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u/UkraineWithoutTheBot 25d ago

It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine'

[Merriam-Webster] [BBC Styleguide] [Reuters Styleguide]

Beep boop I’m a bot

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u/LumpyPumpkin99 22M, DINK, $55k NW 25d ago

good 'the Bot'

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u/diskiller 25d ago

Pretty sure the Ukraine just like it's the Philippines. It doesn't make sense without the 'the'.

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u/Freedom-Unhappy 25d ago

Except one is actually the name (Republic of the Philippines) and one is not (Ukraine). "The" Ukraine just shows you are not educated.

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u/experts_never_lie 25d ago

What's it like living in the '80s now? I haven't been back then for a while.

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u/UkraineWithoutTheBot 25d ago

It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine'

[Merriam-Webster] [BBC Styleguide] [Reuters Styleguide]

Beep boop I’m a bot

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u/escalatortwit 25d ago

It is Ukraine. Calling it 'The Ukraine' implies that it is still an occupied region of the USSR. The name of the country is Ukraine. It is an independent nation.

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u/nkdeck07 25d ago

We have not, the difference my company sees between our Ukrainian and US teams are night and day.

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u/milehigh73a About to pull the plug 25d ago

Oh, the US engineering teams almost always win in skills.

But we saw an improvement in quality and timelines when we moved from india to ukraine. Plus it actually ended up being cheaper.

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u/Selkie_Love 25d ago

In my personal experience, artwork is better from the SEA region. But that’s one tiny niche

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u/Slammedtgs 25d ago

I’m seeing this mostly now in non-technical areas. Accounting, supply chain, logistics. Process oriented roles that people just don’t want to do here (I guess) but it’s not worth the time and errors to hire people who quit and jump ship in 12-18 months when the alternative is a very qualified mid career person in Asia.

Just my two cents, very bad for the US long term.

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u/_ii_ 25d ago

I've seen my fair share of offshoring in my 20 years of tech industry experience. My observation was companies led by engineers usually open an R&D branch in countries like India and half of them did well. If the company is led by MBAs, they tend to just throw money down the toilet by hiring offshore consultants.

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u/Raveen396 25d ago

Funny you mention that, my last company was an older tech company founded by an engineer. Our India branch was solid, and we seemed to use that branch as a "trial" location and brought over the top talent to work in the US. Many of my coworkers were from that branch, and many of them were incredibly sharp, hardworking people.

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u/[deleted] 25d ago

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u/[deleted] 25d ago

[deleted]

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u/mervynkeeneclubman 25d ago

“1st World” countries tend to be similar when it comes to things like work ethic, personal responsibility, integrity, efficiency, etc.

Very true. Guys, if you agree with this, you should read this book that talks about these views in detail. It's called Mein Kampf.

/s

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u/ost113 24d ago

Right, acknowledgment of differences in cultural values is "racist"

Sounds like you need some cultural sensitivity training

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u/sleepymoose88 32M / 20% to FI 25d ago

We have a bunch of FTEs retire as well and while not replaced by our off shore team, they’ve been replaced with on-shore contractors which is killing out on-call rotation, projects, etc. it sucks training people for them to just leave in 6-12 months. It’s a waste of my time.

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u/whelpineedhelp 25d ago

Offshoring doesn't work for a lot of these desk jobs. Partially it is basic coordination difficulties like time difference and language barriers. But it is also the quality of the work, at least in my experience.

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u/Slammedtgs 25d ago

I may be biased, I lead a team of ~25 direct and indirect folks and only one in same office. My work hours are just phased to overlap with Asia morning and nights. It’s not great, but works well when you have good processes in place.

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u/centurion44 23d ago edited 23d ago

Interesting you're seeing this because it is NOT a trend across most industries I'm familiar with in highly compensated roles.