r/geopolitics Aug 16 '21

China engaged in 'breathtaking' nuclear breakout: U.S. Strategic Command News

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/12/china-engaged-breathtaking-nuclear-breakout-us-str/
141 Upvotes

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u/ACuriousStudent42 Aug 16 '21 edited Aug 16 '21

Submission Statement:

This article by Bill Gertz discusses new evidence found for the expansion of China's ICBM fields and the implications for a potential arms race with the United States. The article quotes several members of the US government that detail their shock on this new evidence and potential change in current Chinese nuclear weapons doctrine. As such the article describes the American view of how Chinese doctrine is changing and how this could affect any potential conflicts between China and the US.

In particular the article begins by saying that new analysis of satellite imagery by US intelligence suggests that China is currently building a third missile field that will hold approximately 100 DF-41 type ICBMs. It goes on to quote Charles Richard, commander of the US Strategic Command, who says that the speed of construction of this new airfield is extremely rapid. The location of the new field is believed to be near Hanggin Banner, Ordos City, in Inner Mongolia based off satellite imagery. It says each one of these ICBMs could hold up to 10 warheads, comparing the potential new number of warheads China currently has in service with the number the US says, noting restrictions on the US size due to weapons treaties. These new developments are suggested to be a major change from the previous 'minimum deterrence' policy of the Chinese government, and one aimed at use for coercion against the US according to Adm. Richard. He says that the current nuclear policy of the US government also needs to be changed in order to keep up with the Chinese, saying that 'business as usual will not work'.

This highlights the current unease of US officials on these new developments and what is means for deterrence, especially looking forward to long term goals of the CCP such as reunification with Taiwan. More analysis in the article given by Adm. Richard suggests that the strengthening of the Chinese nuclear arsenal would allow for them to change their deterrence strategy, and with this that the US would also change its deterrence strategy to include economic and information warfare too. The Pentagon believes a new arms race with China could be a possibility and again the article quotes another analyst, Mark Schneider, a former DoD nuclear policymaker, who says that China is attempting to gain superiority over the US in terms of nuclear weapons in order to prepare for military action in the near future.

Overall I believe the key questions here are:

  • What is the purpose of the development of a larger nuclear arsenal?

  • Why has Chinese nuclear doctrine changed?

  • What will these developments allow China to do in the future that they cannot currently do?

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u/[deleted] 29d ago edited 13d ago

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u/Ducky181 29d ago

Time to finally realise President Ronald Reagan Star war laser initiative and bring it to life.

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u/ferrel_hadley 29d ago

Say an American first strike kills 50% of the missiles and warheads China has. Now they have 100. At the reported kill rate for the GBMD (and ignorning the AEGIS ABM / any classified systems that might exist), the United States only needs 400 interceptors (75 million a piece) to have a 95% chance of shooting down all of China's second strike missiles midcourse. Suppose they have a 1000 interceptors? Or the Americans are lieing and the intercept rate for a single GBMD interceptor is 80% instead of 55%?

In the 1980s the US had their SDI\Star Wars projected missile defence. One of the ideas was called "Brilliant Pebbles", about 7000 small satellites that could be used as interceptors of inbound missiles.

It was shelved as being too complex.

Currently SpaceX have launched over 1400 satellites at a much larger weight and have plans for about 40 000. That is to say current US launch capacity and costs could make a system perhaps 6 times as numerous and with far more capability for a cost in the $10 billion range. There launch capability is the matter of great speculation but their costs on their current fleet may be able to drop as low at $10-5 million for a 20 tonne to LEO launch (Falcon 9) and should their insane new generation Superheavy booster deliver then all bets are off.

The old logic that an ICBM can always get through is on its last legs. The US has a huge lead in the new paradigm of high cadence, low cost, reusable to orbit. But China and Europe will be not that far behind (10 years). This means the ability to put very significant anti ballistic missile assets into Earth orbit is only going to grow. Computing power and CCDs are multiple orders of magnitude more powerful.

Its a bad time to be entering a new arms race unless you have a big ace up your sleeve.

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u/AlpineDrifter 29d ago

You suggest that China and others (Europe/Russia) might be ten years behind the technology to match the US’s launch capabilities. The case could be made that matching today’s abilities 10 years from now won’t be nearly enough to overcome the competitive disadvantage. By that time the US is looking like it will have claimed the high ground, and so a potential adversary will have to fight its way to orbit in a way that the US currently does not. Like any defended position, an attacker of space will likely have to expend vastly more resources to overtake the defender. The US might just decide that if China and Russia want to use the policy that might is right, and possession is 9/10’s of the law (i.e. Ukraine and South China Sea), then it can apply that principle to space.

Also, it’s not like the US will just sit back and stop innovating. Not only will others have to reach rocket parity just to tread water, they will have to overcome the defenses the US places there (without being able to copy the US playbook - since it doesn’t currently exist).

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u/Riven_Dante 29d ago

I'll never forget the rhetoric of people when they were baffled at the idea of the new American Space Force.

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u/AlpineDrifter 29d ago edited 29d ago

Yah, I agree wholeheartedly. Although it starts to make sense when you think about the average person’s interest in geopolitics, strategy, and/or history - not claiming to be an expert on any of the above by the way. Many seem totally comfortable expressing opinions on matters to which they are totally oblivious. I think the Space Force concept was bound to take heat just because the ‘military industrial complex’ is an easy idea to hate on due to its perceived wastefulness (some of it justifiably deserved).

You also had/have the other branches of the military that if left in a bureaucratic vacuum could seek to undermine the program because they view it as a threat to their relevancy/funding/survival.

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u/binzoma 26d ago

it was more because of how/when/who it came about. in a vacuum I don't think many would be surprised that a country would make a special military department for space.the reality is lots of countries probably have them, just off the record/as a subset of their airforce rather than publicly naming them. if for nothing else to avoid looking the dumb or overly militaristic

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u/hhenk 26d ago

Like any defended position, an attacker of space will likely have to expend vastly more resources to overtake the defender.

For orbits around Earth: satellites are very vulnerable. All defence systems (like armour) have to lifted up at incredible cost, there is no terrain so hiding is impossible, orbits can be calculated and lifting satellites into orbits requires rocket launches which can not be hidden. The satellites do not have to be destroyed, jamming suffices.

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u/AlpineDrifter 26d ago

I agree that everything you pointed out is a consideration, but disagree that they are by default an advantage to an attacker.

-The typical ‘dumb’ satellite of today is vulnerable due to its lack of maneuverability. But future satellites (American at least) will be maneuverable. Also, they will already be at orbital speeds, so there is massive speed differential opportunity that can be used for evasion.

  • ‘All defenses are lifted at incredible cost.’

This is true for ‘old’ space. ‘New’ space looks like it’s close to achieving a cost revolution, which opens up tons of options. Also, I’m not suggesting satellites be ‘armored’ like a tank. At orbital velocities, even paint flakes have been known to damage hardware. A defender could simply ‘drop’ many low-mass, hard objects in the path of an oncoming object.

‘No terrain so hiding is impossible’

The ‘terrain’ advantage of space, is, space itself. Think about how vast the surface of the earth is, and how technically challenging it has been to hit moving targets at range. Now consider just how huge the volume of LEO is in comparison. If an adversary doesn’t have the ability to reach/intercept you due to a technological gap between their hardware and yours, you can ‘hide’ in plain sight.

‘Launches seen and orbits calculated’

Just because an adversary knows an orbit, doesn’t mean they can reach it. If they are trying to intercept by means of the same orbital plane, there are limited spots on the surface of the earth by which to do so - making for predictable targets. If their intercept method is a separate orbital path that intersects the satellite’s, this is incredibly difficult, especially for a satellite that can maneuver unpredictability in defense.

Certainly jamming is an issue, but that cuts both ways. Just like satellites can be jammed/blinded, so to can the missiles/satellites sent to destroy them. Weapons can also target these systems and the factories and supply lines that make/deploy them on the ground.

There is another defense you didn’t mention - scale. If the assets can be replaced faster than an adversary can destroy them, then the defender maintains the advantage through attrition. This is accomplished by putting the most mass into orbit at the lowest price. If the mass also happens to be more productive than an adversaries’ due to technological superiority, so much the better.

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u/JTG6685 21d ago

It's crazy to think how far ahead US Military technology is. Consumers may not be introduced to new tech for several decades after the initial R&D breakthroughs. They developed unmanned drones and deployed them as early as the 1930s, Predator Drones were deployed as early as 1995. Mobile phones were in development as early as the 1920s, DARPA CERN and DoE basically developed 'smartphones' technology and Apple was the first to take all of the tech and turn it into a consumer product. Absolutely insane to think how close we are to reversing aging and integrating technology with our brains, the US Military is probably a few steps ahead of even those things. We are closer to having an unmanned military force than China is to challenging our nuclear supremacy.

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u/danklasson 17d ago

Russia and China are 10 years ahead the US when it comes to hypersonic missiles

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/[deleted] 29d ago edited 13d ago

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u/BrandonManguson 29d ago edited 28d ago

At the reported kill rate for the GBMD (and ignorning the AEGIS ABM / any classified systems that might exist), the United States only needs 400 interceptors (75 million a piece) to have a 95% chance of shooting down all of China's second strike missiles midcourse. Suppose they have a 1000 interceptors? Or the Americans are lieing and the intercept rate for a single GBMD interceptor is 80% instead of 55%?

The 80-95% only works if there is a few ICBMS's launched at once, if dozens or hundreds are in orbit then the system stands no chance. So really its more of a anti-North Korean system than a anti-Russia/China system.

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u/FizzletitsBoof 29d ago

This is why Taiwan needs to develop nuclear weapons and delivery systems. China wont attack if Shanghai or Beijing will get nuked. Nuclear weapons in Taiwan actually prevent war.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago edited 13d ago

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u/Epicengineer95 28d ago

Honestly, it doesn't make sense to me that rhetoric of a limited counterattack. Why would the US limit itself if a nuclear launch is directed to a west coast city? In contrast, they would take the opportunity to squash any Chinese capability of attacking right back at the US. That scenario is would be a declaration of war in itself. Maybe it's a way of calming public opinion in China because of US military might superiority.

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u/ACuriousStudent42 28d ago

I agree with this completely, if we're at the point strategic nuclear weapons are being used then the logical option would be to ensure any potential source of nuclear weapon attacks are destroyed. I can only see a 'limited counterattack' option being used on the battlefield with tactical nuclear weapons, although I haven't really read up on tactical nuke doctrine.

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u/Epicengineer95 26d ago

Agree. Thanks for sharing the article.

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u/somewhattechy 28d ago

China would be responded to from the entire western block of nations, so it wouldn't just be the US responding. China would be occupied for decades in response after the initial onslaught.

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u/hsyfz 28d ago edited 28d ago

That the Americans wouldn't risk LA and that the Americans would respond with a limited countervalue attack - both of which I believe are dangerously wrong propaganda being spread by the party

Then clearly you are not up to date with the current propaganda. The current narrative is that American government clearly doesn't give a damn about their people—witness how they have been handling Covid and let more than half a million die with absolutely no consequences whatsoever. If you read Hu Xijin, the chief editor of Global Times, you would know he argued repeatedly that the current Chinese nuclear deterrence is not enough. That after the pandemic it is clear the prior Chinese assumption that Americans would care if millions of their compatriots would die in a nuclear exchange is a too charitable characterization and Chinese nuclear deterrence is sufficient only when it can assure total annihilation. There you go. No one in China believes Americans would blink an eye if LA is wiped any more.

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u/hhenk 26d ago

No one in China believes Americans would blink an eye if LA is wiped any more.

This can also be interpreted that the USA is not deterred by the second strike abilities of China. If this would translate to government policy, that can explain the nuclear arm developments the article describes.

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u/FizzletitsBoof 25d ago

No country has ever attacked another country with nuclear weapons and delivery vehicles. For the simple reason that it's suicide and the potential gains are absolutely in no way comparable to the damage sustained by even one nuclear strike on a major city.

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u/ACuriousStudent42 28d ago

From what I've read any attempt of giving Taiwan nuclear weapons would result in invasion by China before they succeed in doing so. The only chance would be to perhaps smuggle the weapons or ingredients in but that would be playing a very risky game imo.

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u/FizzletitsBoof 25d ago

That just means China intends to attack anyways which is all the more reason for Taiwan to develop them rapidly while China is still in the process of modernizing its entire army. I also think it highly likely China will not attack. They gave Pakistan nuclear weapons and India didn't attack. They helped North Korea acquire nuclear weapons and South Korea didn't attack. It's simply not worth it, despite all the rhetoric. Also due to the staggering hypocrisy Chinas threats can simply be disregarded, no country could possibly think they alone are allowed to proliferate weapons across a region while denying anyone else that right.

*edit

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u/somnambul-oelek 25d ago

The principle of minimum hypocrisy is a bedrock of the national security doctrine of no country, ever. It is pretty obvious, just from thinking through the consequences of China sitting back and watching Taiwan go nuclear, why China wouldn't sit back and watch it happen.

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u/FizzletitsBoof 24d ago

You could say the same for India and South Korea, and yet they didn't attack. China made that calculation when they provided North Korea and Pakistan with nuclear weapons, which also projects how they would react.

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u/Ajfennewald 16d ago

I would think that the US would be capable of sneaking nuclear weapons onto Taiwan if they really wanted too. And if the US is at the point of sneaking nuclear weapons onto Taiwan obviously they would respond to the invasion. And if they PLA thinks they would lose in that situation I guess they wouldn't attack.

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u/YeaThisIsMyUserName 29d ago
  • How many tic tacs have they spotted observing this?

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u/Jayden_Paul99 29d ago edited 29d ago

China has always maintained a small nuclear arsenal purely as a deterrent and makes claims that they will not strike first.

The issue is technology has advanced so much and defenses against ICBMs has also advanced. A good example of how effective a regular missile defense system is, is the recent conflict between Hamas and Israel.

China may have realized that their small, aging nuclear arsenal may not be enough to stop aggression anymore. So they’ve been moving to expand their arsenal OR it may be all show and some of those silos may remain empty.

Obviously having a nuclear deterrant isn’t purely defensive in nature as it prevents intervention during more aggressive conventional attacks. But I personally don’t think it indicates a shift in nuclear ambitions in China, it’s merely a modernization. But who knows, it could change soon.

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u/Pakistani_in_MURICA 29d ago

Much of the Nuclear armed guard is modernizing their nuclear forces as confirmed by SIPRI. Most of it revolving around the delivery systems when it comes to the established powers (CN, FR, RU, UK, US) the newer ones (IN, PK) are looking to finalize their 2nd strike capabilities and range.

Remember START is no longer in effect. The minimum deterrence calculations are up for grabs.

The US unveiled a low yield warhead that'll be equipped on Nuclear Subs, ie from US's traditional second strike capability. Which raises questions on what threshold the US will employ.

Russia for it's part is researching hypersonic missiles and drones.

As others have stated China seems more intent on building up their deterrence in the conventional sense of having a couple hardened fixed sites in the new math equation where it's threat matrix isn't regional but global.

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u/randomguy0101001 29d ago

Can a hardened fixed-site resist 3 Minuteman?

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u/Pakistani_in_MURICA 29d ago

Could be possible or impossible. But that's a Minuteman 3 ICBM that didn't hit some other strategic Chinese location.

Back in the Cold War the US purposefully made Nuclear infrastructure in the Midwest for the sole purpose to be targeted by Soviet ICBMs. Iirc this was called the "American Nuclear-Sponge strategy".

In other words the Soviets would have to do a cost benefit analysis on whether or not their limited ICBMs would be better utilized to level American urban/production centers or silos capable of doing the same to Soviets.

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u/randomguy0101001 29d ago

When you say 'strategic', what precisely are you talking about? What is more 'strategi' than a hardened location of a strategic weapon?

In other words the Soviets would have to do a cost benefit analysis on whether or not their limited ICBMs would be better utilized to level American urban/production centers or silos capable of doing the same to Soviets.

Do you understand the difference between counter-force and counter-value?

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u/Pakistani_in_MURICA 29d ago

Answers to your first 2 question is your last question.

Edit: I do want to say, after a nation has the capability to remove all life on Earth x2+ it becomes redundant.

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u/randomguy0101001 29d ago

I like you to clarify since counter-force and counter-value treats what is strategic differently.

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u/Pakistani_in_MURICA 29d ago

But that's a Minuteman 3 ICBM that didn't hit some other strategic Chinese location.

In this post I meant both existing military capability and production/population centers.

(Was this your original clarification?)

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u/randomguy0101001 29d ago

The US strike preference is predominately counter-force and not counter-value. You aren't hitting production/population centers as the US unless there is a shift in an all-out wiping out the Chinese shift from counter-force to counter-value.

So long as the US uses a counter-force approach, what is more strategic than a hardened location?

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/Testiclese 29d ago

This is some low quality, low effort stuff that belongs on /r/worldnews.

It’s not like the US can only focus on China if it’s not entangled in Afghanistan. If that were the case, don’t you think the CCP would’ve launched an attack on Taiwan by now?

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u/Riven_Dante 29d ago

Low quality post

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u/randomguy0101001 29d ago

What is the purpose of the development of a larger nuclear arsenal?

You would have to show these silos are all housed rather than a sponge in order to ask the purpose of such.

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u/Carrera_GT 29d ago

In particular the article begins by saying that new analysis of satellite imagery by US intelligence suggests that China is currently building a third missile field that will hold approximately 100 DF-41 type ICBMs.

Although China seems to claim that they are building windmills.

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u/ZeroPad 28d ago

As an aside... does it bother anyone else that western media always refers to "reunification of Taiwan" instead of "conquest of Taiwan"?

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u/[deleted] 27d ago edited 13d ago

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u/hhenk 26d ago

Nice comparison. The US situation might not be as hypothetical as it sounds at first. If sufficient national trauma is inflicted, and some UK-US bad blood be drawn, such rhetoric might be heard. Among the lines of England has to be brought back into the Anglo-sphere (meaning the US).

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u/[deleted] 26d ago edited 13d ago

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u/hhenk 23d ago

I am not suggesting what is going to happen. Forecasting geopolitical events on a scale beyond (a few) years seems pretty impossible.

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u/danklasson 17d ago

Because they fear the US would go nuclear when they will almost certainly lose a conventional war with China

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u/ferrel_hadley 29d ago

The countries affected by this are Russia, Japan, Taiwan, India.

The US has built its security around the vast arsenal of the USSR. Those other countries will now have differing responses that may add complexity to Chinas geopolitical problems.

Not sure I see an end game on this. The US is already upgrading its ICBM fleet soon and has its SLBMs as its core striking arm. Agitating nations that form something of a compass point around you will make defences much harder to build and increase risks in confrontations.

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u/AlpineDrifter 29d ago

While I generally agree with your assessment, I would remove Russia from that compass point. I think the mainstream western take that Russia/China are ‘frenemies’ is wishful thinking. I think it would be more realistic/pragmatic to assume they are allies standing back-to-back, and plan accordingly.

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u/Testiclese 29d ago

I think Russia doesn’t have allies. They like subservient puppet regimes like Belarus, and “friends” like Venezuela, Iran, North Korea, Syria - all pariah states.

Russian history is one of deep paranoia seated in the fact that they have thousands of miles of land borders they have to protect and only feel safe surrounded by buffer states like they had during the Cold War.

The US and Canada are allies. Russia and China have a common enemy. My 2 cents on the situation.

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u/squat1001 28d ago

They are de facto allies, but only due to shared opponents. They have few shared interests beyond seeing the US-led international order replaced with a multilateral system. However, they don't share a cohesive vision of how that system would look, or their relative roles in it. That's not to say that such a system couldn't come about, just that they aren't fighting for one. It's cooperation against a threat, not for a cause.

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u/AlpineDrifter 28d ago

‘It’s cooperation against a threat, not for a cause.’

Cooperation against a threat is one of the most fundamental ‘causes’ out there. In this case, it’s two parties working against the interests of others (not just the US, many other nations have been negatively impacted by their recent behavior - but I’m also not saying that China’s current/potential contribution is a net negative to the world). By forging a partnership, each is able to reduce the amount of energy and resources committed to defending against the other and commit them elsewhere.

‘They don’t share a cohesive vision for how for how that system would look’

Well, they’re both autocratic dictatorships that seem to place a very low priority on individual, civil, or human rights. So that’s kind of a problem for anyone that feels differently.

Let’s not forget that there are massive economic ties as well. With Russia continuously sanctioned, and China having to consider having its trade routes cut if it moves on Taiwan, they are increasingly reliant on one another for oil and gas supply/demand. They also both have an interest in eroding the status of the dollar as the global reserve currency.

I guess I just don’t agree with your ‘few shared interests’. It seems pretty obvious that they have major overlapping political, economic, and military interests. And if those shared interests are counter to those of the US and its allies, it seems foolish not to give the risks of that partnership fair consideration and then work to mitigate them.

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u/eventheweariestriver 29d ago

I think an additional question needs to be posed, especially concerning hypersonic weapons.

Currently the Chinese have a lead in this technology, which in certain circumstances, grants a massive tactical and strategic advantage. Namely, being able to threaten a massive nuclear strike against the United States that prevents current missile defense systems from limiting loss of life and destruction of infrastructure.

Currently, the DF-ZF is designed to be mounted on Intermediate Ballistic Missiles, specifically the DF-17 system, but we must consider the possibility this technology is being adapted to ICBMs.

The question is, why is China pursuing such a massive nuclear breakout now? I believe it's to have the ability to credibly threaten the United States if we interfere in their hellbent conquest of the sovereign island nation of Taiwan.

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u/erykwelde 29d ago

Why won't the us just send troops and fortify Taiwan already? It's not like china could do anything now. Wouldn't a naval war go in the US favour?

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u/gehirnnebel 29d ago

China would initiate a blockade like the US did during the Cuba crisis.

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u/JBinCT 28d ago

Do you think the PLAN would float after engagement with the USN?

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u/okiedokie321 27d ago

I laughed but never underestimate our enemies. We learned that from the Taliban and Pakistan.

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u/randomguy0101001 29d ago

China will fire a bunch of missiles on radar station and hq and airstipe, then move Chinese fighters to dominate airspace, bomb any military installation with bombers, and then move the navy to control the landing spots, then land troops. It wouldn't be a naval war in the open sea, it will be a fight across about 100 miles of sea, with thousands of missiles pointing at it.

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u/converter-bot 29d ago

100 miles is 160.93 km

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u/yus456 28d ago

Taiwan is lost than it seems. I thought Taiwan and US also had advantages against China's invasion.

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u/randomguy0101001 28d ago

No, because people tend to forget that there is a thing after an invasion. Just as we have seen in Afghan, you still have to build/rule it after you conquer it. Would China invade with no change in the status quo? Probably not. There are probably 12-15 million people who are quite opposed to the PRC, governing them will not be fun. So whenever people talk about an imminent invasion, the first question one should ask is why is China invading? What has changed?

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u/Scope72 20d ago

If there's one thing that the CCP has shown to be good at, it's internal repression. I would not underestimate their ability to suppress the Taiwanese. It's the difficulty of the invasion, the destruction of the island, and the consequences of the invasion from the rest of the world that are the biggest issues for them.

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u/randomguy0101001 20d ago

It's not like 70% of the Chinese in the mainland need to be supressed. You may get like 5%, and that personally is a pretty high estimate to me, that needs suppression. But Taiwan? Probably 70% of the locals will be in opposition at any given time. It is a whole different game. In China, average people may not like their local officials, but they are generally on board with the concept of what CPC's China is, in Taiwan, probably 5% of the people may be on board. Contrary to what some people argue, the Pan-Blues aren't Communists or Communist sympathiser but rather nationalist or nationalists ssympathiser.

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u/TigriDB 25d ago

It will try* to land troops, suffer immense losses which are possibly unmountable. They can definitely destroy Taiwan, but capturing it without killing everyone or a much longer period of time (naval blockading) is absolutely out of the cards. China can't do that.

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u/randomguy0101001 25d ago

How would they suffer immense losses? Is the Chinese going to land without dominating the air and sea first? It felt like people who make this argument thinks the Chinese don't comprehend how to fight wars.

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u/TigriDB 24d ago

They do, but the Chinese actually have an immense disadvantage. Also, they will obtain air superiority, but not entirely control, as Taiwan has SAMs capable of shooting down airplanes. Taiwan will loose any airplanes, but China still won't be able to fly anywhere. These SAMs will be put in the mountains where they are almost impossible to find. The Taiwanese navy can put up a big fight but will lose easily ofcourse. However, any submarines will also have to be taken care of or they could sink any transporting ships. Taiwan also has anti ship missiles. So China will obtain superiority on both, but not total domination. Then China says they got plenty of ships to transport, but those are basically strong fisher boats. In addition only select beaches are landable (~7). Its like D-Day, but now with all the germans alive and waiting with all armanent on the beaches of Normandy because they know the landing location.

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u/AlpineDrifter 29d ago

While I’ll freely admit the US has a long list of shortcomings, I would make the case that it isn’t an irrational warmonger. China, the US, and the world at large benefit from the two parties maintaining peace and a healthy/balanced economic relationship (certainly whatever that idea looks like in practice is open for debate). One could look at US restraint as a deliberate choice in an attempt to demonstrate to China/CCP that the relationship between the two does not need to morph into a zero-sum gain situation. I think in this instance the US is trying to act in good faith to not provoke China on a sensitive ‘core’ issue, while simultaneously supporting its ally Taiwan which has proven itself to be a peaceful, successful society that embodies the values of the US (also a core issue).

I think China and the US shouldn’t view their actions as two people walking across two different tightrope lines, but rather two people walking across the same rope together - an errant move by either could bounce the rope and send both tumbling down. Since this is all happening at a time of unprecedented environmental/climate disruption, this is all the more consequential. If the world descends into another round of large-scale warfare, it diverts huge amounts of scientific energy, resources, and relationship capital away from solving those shared problems. Whether humanity comes out the other side looking anything like it does today is definitely in question.

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u/VERTIKAL19 29d ago

Because this paints the US into even more of a corner. And also in what way do you think it will go in americas favor? Can the chinese invade mainland US? No, of course not. But the bigger question is can the US actually stop a conquest of Taiwan with conventional means? Do you think an approach of blockade only will break china before that blockade becomes too uncomfortable for the West?

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u/erykwelde 29d ago

I was genuinely curious, no need to downvote

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u/VERTIKAL19 29d ago

I do generally not downvote when it is not like insults

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u/erykwelde 29d ago

Alright

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u/ferrel_hadley 29d ago

It is probably far easier to refactor (update the computer code) on existing interceptors to deal with the lower slower angle of a glide "hypersonic" warhead than it is to develop the warhead in the first place. They seem to aim at a gap in existing defences that exists because nothing was aimed there rather than having some super difficult flight envelope.

You seem to be trading potential energy (height), kinetic energy (speed) for some incredibly draggy nudges in flightpath you could call manoeuvre. Even if it is actively manoeuvring, a salvo of interceptors and its going to have lost its speed and height. Those interceptor are likely much cheaper than the target.

Hypersonic re-entry glide vehicles would be Shuttle and X-37. The former having the glide characteristics of a swan diving brick.

Ok I will admit, I am sceptical about the technology as anything but a gap that will be filled sooner than later.

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u/Testiclese 29d ago

My impression of Chinese hypersonic missile tech was that it was meant to sink a US aircraft carrier. We have a few parked around Taiwan.

I don’t think they’re interested in engaging in an all out nuclear exchange with the US mainland. They (for now at least) will probably be satisfied if we just abandoned Taiwan and let the CCP do what it wants in that region.

I’m guessing their math is something like:

  1. launch attack on Taiwan
  2. Sink a US carrier or two
  3. US pulls out because thousands of dead sailors is too much and we also don’t want an all-out war over Taiwan so we wouldn’t escalate further

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u/stopstopp 29d ago

Nobody is interested in engaging in an all out nuclear exchange, that’s a ridiculous notion and everybody knows it. But if one side feels the deterrent is not enough then it does open up options that would otherwise be closed.

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u/FromTheAshesOfTheOld 29d ago

Brinksmanship politics, essentially?

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u/isunoo 29d ago

US pulls out because thousands of dead sailors is too much and we also don’t want an all-out war over Taiwan so we wouldn’t escalate further

If China "sinks a US carrier or two", then there is no option for US to pull out of war with China even if the government wants to. The public opinion turned from prominently anti war to pro war after pearl harbor and 911.

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u/randomguy0101001 29d ago

The thing likely would be China and the US avoid destroying each other's assets while the US provides information to ROC forces and China not hitting US assets. It will likely be a limited war in a limited space for a limited time. Anything else would be unwelcomed by both governments.

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u/MrGulo-gulo 28d ago

I feel you are wrong. Pearl harbor was an attack on American soil, 9/11 was also an attack on American soil. I think if a few thousand sailors died in the otherside of the world for a country that most Americans could locate on a map after 2 decades of forever wars. I think it would be very hard to whip the american public into a patriotic frenzy unless the MSM goes into propaganda overdrive a few years before hand. Which you can argue they are starting to do now.

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u/okiedokie321 27d ago

Unfortunately, I think it'll end up like this, with our carriers on the sideline taking refugees while the two go at it.

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u/SokMcGougan 28d ago

US pulls out because thousands of dead sailors is too much and we also don’t want an all-out war over Taiwan so we wouldn’t escalate further

Would the US pull out in such a situation though? I could imagine that public outcry would be way to much for politics to do a quick opt out, especially if China is the first to strike

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u/Testiclese 28d ago

I think there’s going to be a lot of voices asking why those sailors had to die - “what has Taiwan ever done for us”, that sort of thing. I think the US has foreign intervention fatigue in general.

“No new foreign wars” was a popular piece of Trump’s platform.

To explain why Taiwan is important takes time and lots of explaining. The US voter has been conditioned to pay attention to slogans that can fit on a bumper sticker. You can spend hours explaining this only to have Tucker Carlson destroy your argument with a tweet.

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u/6501 28d ago

Before pearl harbor, wasn't the US very isolationist just like the US is now? The unprovoked attack on the US was enough to push the US to a war that the population supported

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u/Testiclese 28d ago

Pearl Harbor is essentially US soil. It was the same as the Japanese bombing California.

Taiwan? Most Americans couldn’t locate in on a map. What does the average American care about Taiwan?

Sure there would be outrage at first but very closely followed by “why were we even there”

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u/magnax1 28d ago

Pearl Harbor is essentially US soil. It was the same as the Japanese bombing California.

Not really. At the time it was a territory and many Americans did not see it as part of the country. The war actually played a large part in changing that.

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u/E7J3F3 28d ago

Ability to find it on a map and willingness to wage war for it are two separate things. And I think you underestimate the general public's grasp of the China/Taiwan situation as well as anti-China sentiment. I think the most opposition to a response would be from US business interests that have both assets in China and Washington politicians in their pockets. And how much pull would they have in the face of an overwhelmingly pro war public?

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u/Testiclese 27d ago

Yeah I can see that viewpoint as well. I’m afraid we’ll find our which scenario plays out in our lifetime.

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u/Aegandor 28d ago

One major differnce is the Japanese didn't have nukes. If a war happens between the US and China over Taiwan it will quickly end and be followed with a new demarcactio nof spheres of influence. Taiwan will fall completely in the Chinese sphere in such a scenario

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u/6501 28d ago

It's typically assumed that nuclear armed powers won't use nukes unless loosing represents an existential threat to both countries as nuclear retaliation is kind of dangerous.

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u/Phobos_D3mos666 28d ago edited 28d ago

Thousands dead from overt aggression is not the same as dubious nation-building that the US public is weary of. I think you are severely underestimating the amount of rage and fear that would ensue. You think the response to 9-11 was big?

I think the US would absolutely respond with force and China would be making a huge mistake in doing this. That very well could kick off a world war.

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u/AlpineDrifter 29d ago

I would caution you against taking both nations stated abilities at face value. Historically, it seems Russia and China have a pattern of overstating their technological capabilities, while the US has tried to undersell theirs.

It’s one thing to have the ability to make your weapons travel fast, and I’m not questioning any of those parties abilities in that department. It is another thing entirely to have that translate into a target hit - especially when that target is operated/occupied by one of the most technologically advanced nations on earth. There are many, many links in the technology chain that the defender can target to interrupt that missile.

Again, assuming China has a lead in this area and the US is behind in development of a similar system and/or has no defensive answer to it is pretty presumptuous.

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u/784678467846 26d ago

Xi is a nationalistic expansionist. He is guided by a desire to place himself in the history books and believes that China should be leading the world. He wants to rectify the century of shame, and he appears to be setting up the chess board as a mad man would.

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u/SailaNamai 29d ago

From their perspective China is facing an opponent whose stance borders on hostile. Said opponent has the largest, most advanced military in the world with capabilities way beyond your own. It has a network of allied nations, that if presenting a united front would dwarf you in almost all important metrics. Said nation is strategically positioned around the world and has the ability to shut down your trade and energy supply from day one if conflict arose. It's also guaranteeing the independence of a province you consider de jure part of your nation and made it clear that it will take military action in its defense. On top of that it has overwhelming nuclear ability and it is unclear whether your own bombs would be able to reach it. Lately that opponent has been seeking and finding ways to free military resources so that they can be redeployed against you, while stoking sentiment against you at home and around the world.

Given this China must match US nuclear capability. At the very least it must provide credible offensive threat. I find it odd that the Pentagon considers an arms race with China a possibility. That arms race is already underway. It is vastly superior US capability that has rendered it one sided for now.

Please don't misunderstand this post, it's just a thought experiment.

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u/ferrel_hadley 29d ago

This post paints a paranoid, reclusive nation fixated with a war with the US. To me it ignores that it has nuclear capable frenemies to the north, hostile to the south and nuclear capable to the east. It ignores the security concerns of its non nuclear neighbours all round as well. The US is a giant island with weak neighbours to its north and south that it has very good relations with. China is planted in the middle of the most densely populate corner of the planet.

This is the way you would expect China 1965 to see the world, not China 2035.

If Russia and India respond with ABMs and weapon system of their own China will be in one hell of a tight spot. Russia can reach big population centres close to its border with fast IRBMs and India will be coming over the Himalayas. They have a far more complex missile defence situation than the US already without other neighbours getting involved.

They are invulnerable to land attack but decades or more from being able to contest deep oceans with the US and allies. Their geopolitical interests should align with being the US's solid partner for a decade or three. I cannot see what they gain from their current posture beyond maybe Taiwan falling into their lap.

Some days I feel like the absorbed some bad student lefty take on the world order, too much Noam Chomsky and thought that as of 2017, that is how they are supposed to act on the world stage.

I just dont see an end game for this.

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u/H4xolotl 29d ago

paranoid

Really? I feel like they have good reason.

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u/randomguy0101001 29d ago

Given this China must match US nuclear capability.

Why?

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u/gehirnnebel 29d ago

Deterrence. A war between China and the US is possible in the next two decades, for instance if Taiwan declares independence. China must be able to retaliate in case the US uses nuclear weapons in this conflict.

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u/randomguy0101001 29d ago edited 29d ago

According to Marshal Nie Rongzhen who once oversaw Chinese nuclear and missile forces, deterrence [for China] is base on “the rudimentary means of counterstrike” (qima de huanji shouduan起码的还击手段).

There is no need for China to match the US capacity so long as China maintains the capacity to have a survivable and executable second-strike capability.

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u/50centspercomment 29d ago

Sure but Nie died in 92’. The strategic calculus when PRC was a backwards semi-regional power is most assuredly not going to be the same as the one going forward in the next 3 decades. With the introduction of future delivery systems (JL-3/DF-45/H-20) as well as current expansions in nuclear capabilities we will most likely see over 1000 warheads deployed by decades end - in comparison the US only maintains ~1500.

You are presuming that the PRC will not move from a second strike counter value ‘minimal deterrent’ arsenal to a pre-emptive strike counterforce posture because in the event of a nuclear exchange between US and China, so long as China maintains credible second strike capabilities, then both countries are destroyed anyway so any further expansion is unnecessary. This is an extremely limited view of the Chinese nuclear arsenal - suggesting that it exists exclusively to deter the US and not the world at large.

China will be transitioning to a counterforce posture for the same reason the US and Russia both maintain one - having nuclear weapons itself holds tremendous geopolitical weight. Having credible second strike and then credible first strike capabilities only magnifies this weight by several orders of magnitude.

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u/randomguy0101001 28d ago

Sure, but unless you can show there is a change in China's doctrine, you would be hard-pressed to argue China is changing. So far, it is the tail wagging the dog. You see a bunch of silos, and you assumed it is offensive, but why? Why can't it be a nuclear sponge aim to soak up first strikes? Would that make sense? Yes it would. Would that be in place with Nie's comment? Yes, it would.

And China has largely not viewed the rest of the world because China has no cause for war with the rest of the world. China so far has not cared for a global empire. China has one concern, Taiwan, and that is the only thing China has in mind that would spark a nuclear war.

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u/50centspercomment 28d ago

But I am showing you that there clearly has been a doctrinal change. We have seen large expansions at China’s nuclear submarine shipyard - to aid with an expansion in SSN and SSBN production due to Chinese subsystems meeting a certain technological threshold. We have seen a tripling of the Chinese ICBM count within the last 4 years as well as a future introduction of the H-20, notably a long range nuclear capable stealth bomber that will serve to sure up the Chinese nuclear triad. When it comes to changes in doctrine, look at the actions these respective nations are taking, not the diplomatic language that they use, which is itself significantly more tame.

Taiwan is the most important geopolitical question facing China but this idea that it is the only one is ridiculous. Chinese interests are increasingly global. Having first strike capabilities is like having 10 aircraft carriers - the greatest power that these provide is your global partners knowing you them.

You seem to think that China will behave differently from all the superpowers before it, that somehow its national security interests, as they move from interests at home to interests abroad, will not be met with a corresponding expansion in military and nuclear capabilities. The idea that China would act as primarily a trade power and let the US dictate military terms globally, is completely ludicrous at this point.

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u/randomguy0101001 28d ago

OK, how about this, do you have access to International Security? If you have access to a university library or access to academic journals, you should be able to get your hands on this item.

The title is called "Living with Uncertainty Modeling China's Nuclear Survivability", it is in International Security Vol 44, No4 (Spring 2020) by Prof Wu Riqiang.

Read it, then we will continue this discussion.

The key point is not about the increase, but the % of a successful second strike. He has a great discussion in it modeling Chinese response to the USSR in the 60s, the US in 2000 and 2010, and then a prediction to 2025. Most of what you said is discussed in this paper.

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u/50centspercomment 28d ago

Sure, I think i read that article over at SDF a while ago. We have seen expansions in US missile intercept and nuclear capabilities and a corresponding rise in China’s but I don’t think that detracts from the overall thrust of my argument. Your presumption is still that China will not pursue a counterforce posture, instead opting for a reasonably assured countervalue posture. My question is, given the immense benefits of doing so, why not?

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u/randomguy0101001 28d ago

Because China has a 6% chance of successfully landing second strikes [5 missiles surviving 3 Minutemen and pass the missile shilelds] in a war situation, it would be insane to take a counter-force position.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/784678467846 26d ago

It’s not out of the question to be honest.

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u/tehhistorehgai 29d ago

From the beginning of its nuclear program the PRC has remained dedicated to a no first use policy. They have always maintained a small arsenal as a deterrent. Mao correctly reasoned that the PRC only needed the threat of landing one or two nukes to deter an attack, that's why they never embraced MAD.

I think we should be wary of the 4,000 warhead number thrown out in this article. Military officers sometimes default to a worse case scenario. Although China might be able to deploy 4,000 warheads based off the number of silos, that doesn't mean they have 4,000 warheads or will use 4,000 warheads. It could simply be that Chinese nuclear policy hasn't changed and they feel they need a more secure stockpile with these new silos. It could also be they feel they need to enlarge and modernize their nuclear capability to provide a legitimate deterrent. Even if China had 4,000 warheads right now, the US has over 6,000. I don't think this signals a new Chinese nuclear strategy as much as it signals a new approach.

Too, remember the strategic rocket force has grown in influence within the PLA. They control the nukes, and this could be a sign of their increasing influence in the central military commission.

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u/Ashamed-Grape7792 27d ago

Totally agree! It's much more of a defensive than offensive position.

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u/Gnat_Swarm 27d ago

Also consider that building a new ICBM silo forces your opponents to add it as a factor in their calculations and battle plans, even if they don’t know weather or not there is an ICBM in it.

Also, thank you for mentioning the internal-military-politics side of things. This is a very relevant angle that I hadn’t considered in the context of modern militaries.

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u/binzoma 26d ago

They have always maintained a small arsenal as a deterrent.

Even if China had 4,000 warheads right now, the US has over 6,000. I don't think this signals a new Chinese nuclear strategy as much as it signals a new approach.

what constitutes small. Israels defensive posture relies on a pretty small number. also those new chinese nukes will in many cases be better than a large chunk of the 6k the US has that are much older. they're clearly aiming for parity if they're even going down that thought path though. there's no plausible way they haven't changed strategy re nukes.

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u/tehhistorehgai 25d ago

According to the arms control association, China possessed 320 stockpiled warheads in 2020 compared to 6,375 held by Russa and 5,800 by the US. I say that's a "small" number because it's clear China is not engaging in a MAD strategy. The threat of landing 1 nuclear weapon in an enemy city is sufficient to deter a nuclear attack on China, therefore they maintain a small number compared to the 2 large nuclear powers.

I don't agree that "there's no plausible way they haven't changed strategy re nukes." The Central Military Commission (CMC) issues a general strategic guideline (GSG) every time the PLA adopts a new major strategic change. The most recent focuses on "winning local wars under conditions of informatization." Essentially, the PLA is getting ready for a scenario where they have to fight the US/Taiwan or in the South China Sea. The GSG doesn't say anything about nuclear weapons and as far as I'm aware, a new GSG hasn't been issued regarding nuclear posture.

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u/Covard-17 20d ago

NUCLEAR WIND TURBINES!