r/history • u/AutoModerator • 21d ago
Bookclub Wednesday, August 25, 2021 Discussion/Question
Hi everybody,
Welcome to our weekly book recommendation thread!
We have found that a lot of people come to this sub to ask for books about history or sources on certain topics. Others make posts about a book they themselves have read and want to share their thoughts about it with the rest of the sub.
We thought it would be a good idea to try and bundle these posts together a bit. One big weekly post where everybody can ask for books or (re)sources on any historic subject or timeperiod, or to share books they recently discovered or read. Giving opinions or asking about their factuality is encouraged!
Of course it’s not limited to just books; podcasts, videos, etc. are also welcome. As a reminder, /r/history also has a recommended list of things to read, listen to or watch
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u/MinimumCarrot9 21d ago
Hi everyone, I'm looking for books about the Harrying of the North, would love any and all recs for non-fiction books on the subject!
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u/anon38983 21d ago edited 21d ago
With the caveat that I read about half of it before getting a bit bogged down and distracted by other books: The English Resistance by Peter Rex.
If you can keep the various Ælfgars, Edgars, Eadrics, Edwins, Edwards, Eadwulfs, Ælfwolds, Ælfwigs, Leofrics, Leofwines, Godwins & Godrics etc apart (and that's just the Saxons) then it's pretty good. I just kept approaching the book in small snippets before bed and couldn't track the various actors very well.
The first half is largely about the way William upended the social systems of the Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Scandinavian nobility, the outbreak of Edgar the Aetheling's rebellion in the north and the subsequent harrying of the north. The second half I believe goes into the semi-legendary character Hereward the Wake and the resistance in East Anglia so might not be of interest.
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u/MinimumCarrot9 21d ago
Fantastic! It looks just like what I'm looking for- thank you so much!! Would you recommend any of the other books by Peter Rex? I noticed he has one titled "1066" that might be interesting, but would love opinions from someone familiar with the author's work :)
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u/anon38983 21d ago
No idea, sorry; I've not read anything else by him.
I've heard really good things about Marc Morris' book on the Norman Conquest and is probably the book I'll try next time I'm interested in looking at this period (it also sounds far less dry). https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13065400-the-norman-conquest
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u/durmdurmnc 21d ago
Hi! I’m interested in books on the history of the American mafia. The Five Families is the one that Google seems to recommend the most, but I’m wondering if there are others worth reading. Thanks!
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u/WestTexasOilman 17d ago
The Rise of the Mafia: The Definitive Story of Organized Crime by Martin Short (2009) was a great read. Solid.
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u/hkline76 21d ago edited 20d ago
Hi all, I am looking for recommendations on renaissance era artists, mainly Michelangelo, Botticelli, and Raphael (but if you have suggestions of other artists that would be great too). I also love pre 1800s scientists. I am interested in mainly those who contributed to physics and astronomy so anything on Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, etc. Thanks!
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u/JimJamBimBam 20d ago
Paul Strathern’s The Florentines came out earlier this year and it sounds like exactly what you’re looking for. It’s essentially the story of the Florentine Renaissance told through a collection of short biographies of major players like Lorenzo de Medici, Michelangelo, Galileo etc. Super fun and easy read, definitely recommend
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u/hkline76 20d ago edited 20d ago
Oh wow that sounds absolutely perfect, thank you very much!
[edit]
Just looked him up and wow, he has quite a few books I am going to get. Thanks again for the awesome suggestion.
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u/Stalins_Moustachio 21d ago
Hey everyone, just picked up the latest visual history book by DK Publishing's Map by Map series. If you are interested in history presented through a great mix of visual and text based information, definitely take a look at Battles Map by Map.
Also, I really recommend the rest of the DK series - namely the US Civil War: A Visual History, WW1: A Visual History, WW2: A Visual History, History of the World Map by Map and WW2 Map by Map.
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u/VictorVVN 21d ago
Can anyone recommend a book about the roman Isis cult? Articles ect are also much appreciated.
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u/Ranger176 21d ago
Just started on Peter Cozzens The Earth is Weeping. So far pretty good. Cozzens does good at scraping away the mythology surrounding the Indian Wars while still maintaining a balanced perspective (which is one of his stated objectives).
I also finished Fall and Rise: The Story of 9/11 by Mitchell Zuckoff. An excellent account of the whole day. I’ll say more around the 20th anniversary next month but I urge everyone to go read it, especially if you don’t remember the day in question.
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u/Stalins_Moustachio 21d ago
Cozzens' book is great! I am glad to see a recent rise in comprehensive books covering the histort of First Nations. Some of my favourite so far have been the Comanche Empire, Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee and Empire of the Summer Moon.
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u/Ranger176 21d ago
Empire of the Summer Moon was great too! I also have Cozzens biography on Tecumseh which I plan to read at some point. You might wanna check that out too.
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u/WestTexasOilman 17d ago
My check out Wilbarger’s Indian Depredations in Texas, if you’re into that.
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u/young_gam 21d ago
Looking for a book or article on Imperial Japan's management of its East Asian colonies and the changes in policy from its early days to the dawn of WWII.
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u/REHarris1952 21d ago
Started reading Stalin’s spy:Richard Sorge which is fantastic gives a proper insight into the role of the Spy network that Stalin had at his fingertips and recently finished Overlord by Max Hastings which was gifted to me by my history teacher which is another excellent read as he unusually from what I have read in terms of ww2 books gives eye witness accounts from bothe sides of the DDAY landings and the coming weeks of intense fighting throughout the allied advance through France
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u/SensitiveGrape9034 21d ago
Any recs for a book on Russian winter or on Russian warfare in winter
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u/nickmills33 20d ago
Possibly - a frozen hell by William trotter. Been looking into a book on the winter war between Finland and Russia during ww2 following on from something I'm reading at the moment that mentioned the conflict briefly. Can't vouch for the contents but is reviewed highly but may be more focused on the Finnish side based on the blurb.
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u/Ze_Bonitinho 21d ago
I'm looking for books about the history of ancient Greece and its surroundings during the time of the Pre-socratics, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.
I know there are books from that time like Thucydides', but I'd like something from our times with a major recollection of events. I've want to read more about the history of philosophical ideas and would like to have a glimpse of the historical context under which these ideas flourished
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u/countthetea 20d ago
Hi everyone! I have just finished the rise and fall of the third reich and found it to be such a thorough analysis of the second world war, specifically H. So I was wondering if there is a favoured text that covers the Mongols and gengis Khan as I really don't know much about this period. I can talk until I'm blue in the face about the tutors, napoleon and the suffragettes but our education system missed out some key people and periods.
So any suggestions on what is a key text for this empire.
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u/nickmills33 17d ago
There are 3 books that get recommended alot. Either John man, Frank mclynn or Jack weatherford have written books on the subject. I've read the Frank mclynn book which wasn't the best in my opinion and the general consensus based on reviews is the jack weatherford book is the best of the 3 main ones, and I would chose that now if I were to read another book on genghis Khan.
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u/akunosama1 16d ago
Books about the German civilian reaction to the anti jewish laws and the holocaust. English and German language. I'd like to see the progress of the holocaust at the level and knowledge of the average Reich citizens as oppose to that of the Jews or SS. All the angles too: the jew haters, sympathisers, and ignorers. Thanks!
Ps Another subject, the German families in the occupied countries before during and after the war. Think you'd call them Volksdeutscher. Anything helps, it's obviously not something people like to write about.
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u/MonsieurSnozzcumber 19d ago
Howdy everyone, I’m trying to figure out which translation of the Bible is most accurate to the original? I’m looking to dive into the Bible for the first time since high school, but strictly for its historical context and not its religious teachings, so the accuracy is pretty important to me. Thanks!
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u/HistoricalPolitician 18d ago
Idk if this is the answer you are looking for, but i believe the original bible was written in Greek, so if you do some research around that, you might find something to help further with that.
In regards to historical break down of the text. Technically, Orthodoxy is the “closest” to the original church. The orthodox are seen as the originals, and it was the Catholics who broke away and split.
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u/Zealousideal-Tie-909 16d ago
The Secret World Government or The Hidden Hand: The Unrevealed in History
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u/[deleted] 15d ago
[removed]
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u/AutoModerator 15d ago
Hi!
It looks like you are talking about the book Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond.
The book over the past years has become rather popular, which is hardly surprising since it is a good and entertaining read. It has reached the point that for some people it has sort of reached the status of gospel. On /r/history we noticed a trend where every time a question was asked that has even the slightest relation to the book a dozen or so people would jump in and recommend the book. Which in the context of history is a bit problematic and the reason this reply was written.
Why it is problematic can be broken down into two reasons:
- In academic history there isn't such thing as one definitive authority or work on things. There are often others who research the same subjects and people that dive into work of others to build on it or to see if it indeed holds up. This being critical of your sources and not relying on one source is actually a very important skill in studying history often lacking when dozens of people just spam the same work over and over again as a definite guide and answer to "everything".
- There are a good amount of modern historians and anthropologists who are quite critical of Guns, Germs, and Steel and there are some very real issues with Diamond's work. These issues are often overlooked or not noticed by the people reading his book. Which is understandable, given the fact that for many it will be their first exposure to the subject. Considering the popularity of the book it is also the reason that we felt it was needed to create this response.
In an ideal world, every time the book was posted in /r/history, it would be accompanied by critical notes and other works covering the same subject. Lacking that a dozen other people would quickly respond and do the same. But simply put, that isn't always going to happen and as a result, we have created this response so people can be made aware of these things. Does this mean that the /r/history mods hate the book or Diamond himself? No, if that was the case, we would simply instruct the bot to remove every mention of it. This is just an attempt to bring some balance to a conversation that in popular history had become a bit unbalanced. It should also be noted that being critical of someone's work isn't the same as outright dismissing it. Historians are always critical of any work they examine, that is part of their core skill set and key in doing good research.
Below you'll find a list of other works covering much of the same subject. Further below you'll find an explanation of why many historians and anthropologists are critical of Diamonds work.
Other works covering the same and similar subjects.
Epidemics and Enslavement: Biological Catastrophe in the Native Southeast, 1492-1715
Ecological Imperialism: The Biological Expansion of Europe, 900-1900
Criticism of Guns, Germs, and Steel
Many historians and anthropologists believe Diamond plays fast and loose with history by generalizing highly complex topics to provide an ecological/geographical determinist view of human history. There is a reason historians avoid grand theories of human history: those "just so stories" don't adequately explain human history. It's true however that it is an entertaining introductory text that forces people to look at world history from a different vantage point. That being said, Diamond writes a rather oversimplified narrative that seemingly ignores the human element of history.
Cherry-picked data while ignoring the complexity of issues
In his chapter "Lethal Gift of Livestock" on the origin of human crowd infections he picks 5 pathogens that best support his idea of domestic origins. However, when diving into the genetic and historic data, only two pathogens (maybe influenza and most likely measles) could possibly have jumped to humans through domestication. The majority were already a part of the human disease load before the origin of agriculture, domestication, and sedentary population centers. This is an example of Diamond ignoring the evidence that didn't support his theory to explain conquest via disease spread to immunologically naive Native Americas.
A similar case of cherry-picking history is seen when discussing the conquest of the Inca.
Pizarro's military advantages lay in the Spaniards' steel swords and other weapons, steel armor, guns, and horses... Such imbalances of equipment were decisive in innumerable other confrontations of Europeans with Native Americans and other peoples. The sole Native Americans able to resist European conquest for many centuries were those tribes that reduced the military disparity by acquiring and mastering both guns and horses.
This is a very broad generalization that effectively makes it false. Conquest was not a simple matter of conquering a people, raising a Spanish flag, and calling "game over." Conquest was a constant process of negotiation, accommodation, and rebellion played out through the ebbs and flows of power over the course of centuries. Some Yucatan Maya city-states maintained independence for two hundred years after contact, were "conquered", and then immediately rebelled again. The Pueblos along the Rio Grande revolted in 1680, dislodged the Spanish for a decade, and instigated unrest that threatened the survival of the entire northern edge of the empire for decades to come. Technological "advantage", in this case guns and steel, did not automatically equate to battlefield success in the face of resistance, rough terrain and vastly superior numbers. The story was far more nuanced, and conquest was never a cut and dry issue, which in the book is not really touched upon. In the book it seems to be case of the Inka being conquered when Pizarro says they were conquered.
Uncritical examining of the historical record surrounding conquest
Being critical of the sources you come across and being aware of their context, biases and agendas is a core skill of any historian.
Pizarro, Cortez and other conquistadores were biased authors who wrote for the sole purpose of supporting/justifying their claim on the territory, riches and peoples they subdued. To do so they elaborated their own sufferings, bravery, and outstanding deeds, while minimizing the work of native allies, pure dumb luck, and good timing. If you only read their accounts you walk away thinking a handful of adventurers conquered an empire thanks to guns and steel and a smattering of germs. No historian in the last half century would be so naive to argue this generalized view of conquest, but European technological supremacy is one keystone to Diamond's thesis so he presents conquest at the hands of a handful of adventurers.
The construction of the arguments for GG&S paints Native Americans specifically, and the colonized world in general, as categorically one step behind.
To believe the narrative you need to view Native Americans as somehow naive, unable to understand Spanish motivations and desires, unable react to new weapons/military tactics, unwilling to accommodate to a changing political landscape, incapable of mounting resistance once conquered, too stupid to invent the key technological advances used against them, and doomed to die because they failed to build cities, domesticate animals and thereby acquire infectious organisms. This while they often did fare much better as suggested in the book (and the sources it tends to cite). They often did mount successful resistance, were quick to adapt to new military technologies, build sprawling citiest and much more. When viewed through this lens, we hope you can see why so many historians and anthropologists are livid that a popular writer is perpetuating a false interpretation of history while minimizing the agency of entire continents full of people.
Further reading
If you are interested in reading more about what others think of Diamon's book you can give these resources a go:
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u/dropbear123 21d ago edited 21d ago
Been reading 2 history books
Finished The Lost City of Z: A Tale of Deadly Obsession in the Amazon, by David Grann (copied and pasted review)
3.5/5 rounding down for Goodreads
The story of the British explorer Percy Fawcett who became obsessed with the idea of a relatively advanced ancient civilisation in the Amazon rainforest and who went missing in 1925 while exploring. The book is mainly split between (1) Fawcett’s story of the many expeditions he went on in the early 1900s then switching to the historical attempts to find him and rescue him and (2) the authors own travelling to find out more about Fawcett first in the UK then in Brazil and ending in the Brazilian Amazon rainforest meeting various tribes. The book covers various themes like Victorian and Edwardian spiritualism, even further back attempts to explore the Amazon for places like El Dorado (like by the Spanish), and anthropological debates over how habitable the Amazon is for large groups of people and whether or not it could’ve sustained large scale civilisation (the author sides with the view that it could have).
The parts about Fawcett himself were interesting, the details about attempts to find in the 1930s were fine, but I was uninterested in the author’s own travels (but I can see that they were needed for the book to work well). Only read if interested in exploration otherwise give it a miss.
Currently reading (slowly) July Crisis: The World’s Descent into War, Summer 1914, by T.G Otte. I’m really liking it so far but I wouldn’t recommend it unless really into WWI and have some background knowledge on early 1900s politics. It is only about the July Crisis, nothing about the earlier crises or things like the Dreadnought race that books like Christopher Clark’s Sleepwalkers cover. It is also only about the actions, decisions, thought processes of individuals, foreign ministers, and diplomats, very little about ‘militarism’ or ‘nationalism’ or other abstract forces. 220 pages in (out of 525) and so far it is up to the 23 July with Austria-Hungary’s ultimatum about to be sent.