Then they honestly can find a better way to handle that than making a mess on a public sidewalk, traumatizing people walking by. People should have the right to choose to die, but not necessarily how. You don’t get to act selfishly and ruin some total stranger’s day on your way out.
This, again, goes back to the morality of euthanasia assuming it were a widely accessible option. Assuming you’re not killing yourself out of terminal illness or something equally drastic, would suicide for any other reason, such as unbearable stress, be considered selfish? It would certainly be painful for friends and family. I haven’t figured out my opinions and values regarding this. It’s a surprisingly complicated issue, so no wonder our government doesn’t bother with it.
For some, it’s quite difficult to find relief if their society is hypercompetitive, like South Korea, well known for suicide rates.
And what if I have no Friends and Family couldn't give a shit about me. Now there is no pain (and probably a large amount of joy) involved with my suicide (which I am to much of a pussy to do myself). Can I get euthanised? Book me in for the earliest possible appointment, Thanks.
I guess is makes sense why such medical procedures are not available to us, I mean I bet you would make way more money prescribing a few daily pills in no time compared to a one and done euthanasia.
The only reason it's not available, other than the fact that US is, always has been and always will be, an extremely religiously insane place, is simply because they can't sell it to you more than once.
Opposition to euthanasia is just yet another form of authoritarianism.
Wtf suicide is being encourage now. Suicidal people needs help not death. With that kind of mindset I highly encourage you to go kys to help you get out of the authoritarianism youre talking about.
Ok, let me explain it to you. As a reference I'm in my thirties, quite healthy (physically, not mentally), I have a job and no friends or any relationships.
You get to this point not by choice. Your parents raise you the way they want to. My parents didn't want me, I already have two siblings a third child wasn't what they wanted. But my mother believed that every life is precious and should be preserved. You go trough your childhood never learning what emotions are, never feeling loved and protected. Then you're in school, you try to fit in but it never feels right. You just brush it of thinking eh everything will turn out alright. But then after school you start to work, having never made any kind of emotional connection, you don't have friends.
Suddenly it feels normal to be alone, your colleagues talk about their girlfriends, boyfriends, wives, husbands and families. And you don't care about any of that. You feel nothing, a slight existential dread when you see other people living their lives, but other than that? You are completly disconnected from the world around you. You stay inside and isolated for years, it feels normal for you to be alone.
Because of all of that you can't find new friends or form new relationships. The few people that talk to you will soon ignore and forget you. Not because it is their intention to hurt you, but just because they understand that you don't care about them. They notice that you don't have a emotional connection to them. So over time you are lonely and you feel like it. It is not the fault of the world around you, it is your very own. People only see the weirdo who lives alone, never leaves his place. Your family has to deal with you, because well you are part of the family. The weird uncle who is always alone. But everyone else will leave you alone and avoide you. Just another creepy dude who never goes outside.
To get to this point, it is not your choice. There are a lot of factors playing into that. It is set in motion early on and some day you wake up and find out, that you cannot change anymore. You cannot change what you have become, because without it you would be nothing. You have no personality, no friends, no family, no emotions, no hobbies or passions, nothing. If you take away the last bit that makes up your personality, you take something away from nothing and then you're left with less then nothing. A negative value of life.
This is the mental state you're in for a couple of years and then the other side doesn't seem so bad after all. I don't care about anyone and nobody cares about me.
Just assuming someone is in their prime and healthy doesn't help. Just because a car is nice and polished doesn't mean shit. The engine is falling apart, the exhaust came of a couple of miles ago and the brakes don't work. This is how you get to that point.
I have this as well, its called Alexithymia (among some other things). It sounds like you have way more than just that but alexithymia makes life and relationships way harder than it needs to be.
Its one of the few psychological issues that can be drastically helped in therapy if you have someone specialized or knowledgeable about it. I went through sort of a similar situation as a child but insert multiple religious conversion "therapies" from 6 to 12 for being "gay".
Was not sure if you were aware since half the time its a guessing game of "wtf is wrong with me" and therapists/doctors need alot of help to even glimpse what is going on.
I would suggest finding a therapist versed in Alexithymia and CPTSD and just start doing sessions with them. Its ok if you dont know what to do at first.. we all need to learn to walk before we can run. I believe in you.
Thanks for typing all that out. I guess the obvious dumb question is why not hit the gym, try to make a bunch of money, get instagram photos from all over the world, and whatever else makes people want to be around you?
I guess the obvious dumb question is why not hit the gym, try to make a bunch of money, get instagram photos from all over the world, and whatever else makes people want to be around you?
You're right. That is a dumb question. Many people don't have that desire at all. You sound very young and immature.
Good question. And I understand that it is difficult to grasp the mental state that I, and I assume many others, am in.
Why should I hit the gym. Why should I try to get fit? It does actually fit my situation a bit, I'm a bit overweight so yeah I should propably do it. But why should I do it? I don't like my body or my mind. Changing my body doens't solve my problems, it might distract me while doing it. But it would also mean that I have to leave my appartment. You have to try thinking about it this way, you've spent the last 6 years only leaving you apparment for the bear minimum, getting groceries and work. You have become accustomed to these walls. The outside world seems to be strange, you feel completly disconnected and cannot grasp why you would go outside.
In your room is dread, misery, loneliness and anger. Outside is something else, something you do not now. Staying inside is bad, but you know what you will get.
Traveling around the world is the same deal. There might be something good out there, but in the same way you could be robbed, beaten down, raped or whatever. Yeah nature is nice, but going out there doesn't get you anything. It doesn't change who you are or what you think.
Wanting to have people around means that you have to like having people around you. To be precise you have to get a positive emotional response from seeing other humans or interacting with them. All I get is misery and regret. So whatever you do is just there to protect your own world from the outside. You know that everything that is normal seems strange and dangerous to you.
Maybe you could imagine it as a apocalyptical world with scorching heat, deadly animals, storms and floods. Every single moment in this world would be dangerous, unkown and misery. But there is a small cave in the mountains, less heat, floods don't reach it and you can sit inside until a storm is over. What would you choose? The dangerous outside or your little cave. Maybe the cave is bare, it's dirty insects are crawling around and you have to sleep on the hard rock. But it is better than the unknown, better than being mauled by a big animal, better than dying in the intense heat or being washed away by the flood.
Now someone suggests, hey go outside see the world everything it has to offer. See other people, look at all the animals, climb the highest mountains and swim the deepest oceans. What would you do?
I maybe got carried away a bit there, but I think this could give you a good idea what I feel like looking outside my window.
Why should I hit the gym. Why should I try to get fit? It does actually fit my situation a bit, I'm a bit overweight so yeah I should propably do it. But why should I do it?
Regular exercise and having an overall healthy lifestyle in general (eating/sleeping right) does wonders for mental health issues even if they might not seem related at surface level. Your brain/body is a complex machine that runs on resources and when you are constantly lacking in vital resources or giving your body the wrong balance of resources, your brain is going to constantly be producing "I feel like shit" chemicals no matter what else you do.
I don't like my body or my mind.
Your body and mind can both be subject to change.
But it would also mean that I have to leave my appartment. You have to try thinking about it this way, you've spent the last 6 years only leaving you apparment for the bear minimum, getting groceries and work. You have become accustomed to these walls. The outside world seems to be strange, you feel completly disconnected and cannot grasp why you would go outside.
This could also contribute to overall mental health issues. Humans did not evolve over millions of years to exist in a box made out of bricks/concrete/glass, our bodies feel great comfort by exposure to the outdoors, we evolved among and around nature and our brains instinctually feel at home outdoors even if our conscious mind does not. Lack of sun exposure means unless you take extra care with your diet, you're definitely Vitamin D deficient which that alone will make an otherwise healthy person feel like they're having a down day. This goes back to my previous point.
Traveling around the world is the same deal. There might be something good out there, but in the same way you could be robbed, beaten down, raped or whatever.
This is like saying that you're not gonna go to grocery store cause someone might happen to shoot it up while you're there. Being the victim of a serious crime is a trait held by a incredibly small fraction of the population. As long as you're the least bit intelligent about where you're traveling and how you're acting while abroad, you aren't any more likely to be the victim of crime than in your home neighbourhood.
Wanting to have people around means that you have to like having people around you. To be precise you have to get a positive emotional response from seeing other humans or interacting with them. All I get is misery and regret. So whatever you do is just there to protect your own world from the outside. You know that everything that is normal seems strange and dangerous to you.
So one thing I'm confused about, in the post above you made it seem the major source of your depression was being alone and that you wished for that to not be the case, but here you say interacting with people brings you misery. Maybe you just don't need to be around other people? Why force yourself to have relationships with others when in this day and age a person can get by on their own perfectly fine? If you truly don't care about others, as you say, why consider other people a factor at all in the quest for your own happiness. Or is it that you do want to care about people but cannot manage to for some reason?
Maybe you could imagine it as a apocalyptical world with scorching heat, deadly animals, storms and floods. Every single moment in this world would be dangerous, unkown and misery. But there is a small cave in the mountains, less heat, floods don't reach it and you can sit inside until a storm is over. What would you choose? The dangerous outside or your little cave. Maybe the cave is bare, it's dirty insects are crawling around and you have to sleep on the hard rock. But it is better than the unknown, better than being mauled by a big animal, better than dying in the intense heat or being washed away by the flood.
I can imagine that just fine. The thing is, it's fiction, and the world is not like that at all. So my question would be what actually is it that you're so afraid of out there that makes the world seem equatable to apocalyptic conditions? Human interaction? The unknown in general? I'm sure it's more nuanced than that but that's why I'm asking.
Regular exercise and having an overall healthy lifestyle in general (eating/sleeping right) does wonders for mental health issues even if they might not seem related at surface level. Your brain/body is a complex machine that runs on resources and when you are constantly lacking in vital resources or giving your body the wrong balance of resources, your brain is going to constantly be producing "I feel like shit" chemicals no matter what else you do.
Yeah you're right. I've tried eating right, and tried dieting for 6 months. Didn't change a thing for me, I propably should have done it longer but I didn't feel different. Maintaing my body and mind has evolved into so much work that I really can't be bothered by it anymore.
Your body and mind can both be subject to change.
I could never change my body, it doesn't matter what I've tried. I have clothes from when I was 14 years old and they still fit. So my body hasn't changed a lot over the years. Admittedly I've lost my hair over the years, so there is some change. I honestly can't remember what my mind was like and if it has changed, it propably deteriorated over the years but stayed generally the same.
This could also contribute to overall mental health issues. Humans did not evolve over millions of years to exist in a box made out of bricks/concrete/glass, our bodies feel great comfort by exposure to the outdoors, we evolved among and around nature and our brains instinctually feel at home outdoors even if our conscious mind does not. Lack of sun exposure means unless you take extra care with your diet, you're definitely Vitamin D deficient which that alone will make an otherwise healthy person feel like they're having a down day. This goes back to my previous point.
Yep you're right again.
This is like saying that you're not gonna go to grocery store cause someone might happen to shoot it up while you're there. Being the victim of a serious crime is a trait held by a incredibly small fraction of the population. As long as you're the least bit intelligent about where you're traveling and how you're acting while abroad, you aren't any more likely to be the victim of crime than in your home neighbourhood.
Humans are also formed by experience and my experience is that I'm the proof of murphys law. Everything I do always has the worst outcome for me.
So one thing I'm confused about, in the post above you made it seem the major source of your depression was being alone and that you wished for that to not be the case, but here you say interacting with people brings you misery. Maybe you just don't need to be around other people? Why force yourself to have relationships with others when in this day and age a person can get by on their own perfectly fine? If you truly don't care about others, as you say, why consider other people a factor at all in the quest for your own happiness. Or is it that you do want to care about people but cannot manage to for some reason?
I don't know. I'm not fine when im alone, I don't feel anything around other people so yeah. I just don't know.
With
So one thing I'm confused about
you have just described my whole life.
I can imagine that just fine. The thing is, it's fiction, and the world is not like that at all. So my question would be what actually is it that you're so afraid of out there that makes the world seem equatable to apocalyptic conditions? Human interaction? The unknown in general? I'm sure it's more nuanced than that but that's why I'm asking.
It might be fiction for you, but it is real in my head. This is how I see the world. The question why I see the world like this is a good one. A question I don't have a definitive answer to. Maybe it is human interaction, maybe it is the emotion that comes with it. Maybe the unkown. All I can see is this world in my head.
What you said is correct, I've spend my past years thinking about all these issues and why I am like this. I don't have an anwser and I don't know how it will go on.
Suicide isn't an escape or release. You will never EVER feel relief by suicide. You will just be erased from existence. Live long enough and a future utopia may one day wait you. Check out now and you will just die suffering.
Furthermore, if you have ever lost someone. Think of the hole it left in your heart. I can't imagine putting someone else through that
People say this but it means just about as much as those motivational posters.
Some people are truly alone and that’s just the way it is. It is truly a shame. But pretending otherwise is cruel, honestly. Just because a guy says hello in a store or doesn’t want to be responsible for cleaning you off a sidewalk doesn’t mean they give a shit about you.
Brilliant question that I don’t think any of us can answer. Are philosophers still a thing these days? I know philosophy majors are, but most of those guys just become lawyers.
I don't think it is selfish, the worst thing is going on living just for the sake of others. It would be painful for the family and friends sure but the choice wasn't theirs, we're not born by choice, at the very least the dignity of death should be guaranteed.
I couldn’t ever support euthanasia for people who are otherwise healthy and just stressed in life or have causes and mental illness that led them there… Would therapists encourage it as an option? Would people who otherwise would’ve regretted suicide or been saved from an attempt end up dead? It just seems like instead we should fix the causes that bring people to this place. It seems like a lot of replies are from suicidal people themselves. The person above says they are no longer suicidal but would prefer death to life. That’s still being suicidal and I imagine if euthanasia was an option for them they would choose it instead of focusing on their family and trying to get better. But they should not feel that way. We need to provide better mental health etc. starting when people are young and so many other things… but legalizing voluntary euthanasia seems like a short cut.
No… you HAVE to be here & participate in this game that is life, governed by tickets that is money, and conduct yourself appropriately, despite all the things you’d rather not be participating in to begin with.
If you accept the proposition that suicide is not always a moral wrong, then it is difficult to understand why A is obliged to continue with an unbearable existence because her suicide would cause pain to B, C and D.
A is not a mere instrument through which the pleasure of others is to be realised.
Slitting one’s wrists or hanging are less likely to kill you. In some countries, owning a gun is illegal. Jumping off a tall building gives you a better chance of dying. In all honestly, if you’re at a point where all you want is the pain to go away, it isn’t weird to ignore other people. Why should they matter?
Source: I’m suicidal.
I’ve been suicidal in the past — and am thankfully not there for now.
I certainly understand the mindset of not caring about how your death impacts (no pun intended) others. And I think it’s a big reason we have so many mass shootings followed by suicide. There’s no repercussion for anything I do, so why not do something really crazy?
I would even say that in a suicidal context, that’s a pretty normal thought process to have. But for me, the act of taking one’s own life is a deeply personal thing. I don’t want to be known for it, or on the news. I wouldn’t want to harm others physically or psychologically just because I’m hurting. I don’t want to share pain. It’s just not me.
Source: I’m suicidal.
I’m not one to try to talk people out of it, because I understand what it’s like to experience very deep pain for years on end. And I get the allure of the relief that comes from absolute nothingness is strong.
All I can say is that I hope you find the relief you need. Happiness is a very illusive thing. Find it anywhere you can.
I'm saying if all it did was ruin someone's day. But reality is, it doesn't just ruin a day.
I think I must have worded my comment incorrectly because both people who responded seemed to have gotten the wrong message from it.... I was trying to say how selfish it is to traumatize others, and was mostly trying to comment on how calling it "ruining someone's day" completely understates how traumatizing it would be to witness suicide
I hear you. One person’s final act, as important as human life is, just doesn’t give them the right to harm others. I feel the same way about people who walk in front of a train (seen that happen) or a car. That harms others.
I’ve also read about people who are very careful not to create a burden for others. One guy called his own ambulance before hanging himself. Plenty of people opt to OD. There’s no shortage of methods.
Why make your worst day someone else’s worst day too?
It was probably the only good way he thought about doing it at the time. You never know whats going on on someone else's head , especially when they're contemplating suicide
In a truely compassionate society, as this one proclaims itself to be, any person could die by asssisted state suicide after a through confirmation process of course. There is no reason a person shouldn't be able to walk into a hospital and say I want to be dead and donate my organs to those who want to live. This society isn't like that so I don't look negatively on anyone who splatters themselves on a sidewalk as a big middle finger to the world.
No, it isn't. You're assuming 100% of people should love this experience, but for some rehabilitation isn't a factor. Humanity isn't some pinacle of consciousness that all beings should aspire to be like. We were all forced to participate here without our consent and some people regardless of what you say or do don't want to exist here. This place isn't some lucid dream where will determines reality and turns it into paradise, it's a place of heavy limitations and restrictions. Some people value the time before this current bipedal temporary meat bag more and would rather go back to it. On the spectrum of all that could be, do you really think this right now is that great? Only a slight bit of imagination can envision a much much better experience.
No one should have to die alone and afraid after a lifetime of pain with a gun in their mouth, their neck on the train tracks, jumping from a building, etc. That is true abandonment.
Drugs or nitrogen … after I already sold all my assets and put the money in a joint account with the beneficiary.
Then I’d probably do it somewhere near people trained to handle bodies, but not where I’d get noticed and saved. The fire station near me has a nice green field behind to it with a great view. That seems like a solid spot. I’d do it at night and probably be found within 12 hours, but I’d probably schedule an email just in case. Plus it’s easy access for the ambulance to load me up.
I agree but there are so few ways and this thread is full of shitty kids who think everything is individual and subjective and different for everyone until someone wants out and they feel too threatened to imagine a person could rationally make that choice or have that right.
People like you suck. I guess it makes sense for people to respond to someone who has commited suicide (due to the lack of compation and carring felt from their environment ) with nothing but more repulsive egocentric selfishness.
I figured it would make it easier to understand as it matches the stupidity of the comment. Regardless, I fixed it so maybe you'll be able get the point.
suicide is a selfish act already and it's going to ruin someone's day already.
edit still leaving my original comment because my opinion is the same, but I realize there are better ways to word my comment. It's okay to be selfish. Suicide/DNR/assisted suicide are very important issues, and I'd love for there to be more resources available to people who suffer. Ultimately, suicide is a choice made by you and for you, objectively making it selfish. However, this is not always a bad thing. Hope that clears things up.
For some reason I can't reply to your other comment, but I just wanted to say that I understand your point and my wording wasn't the best, even though my opinion is still the same. I could have worded it more gently for sure.
I have not. I have other mental health problems, but haven't been suicidal ever. I think that suicide/DNR/assisted suicide should be discussed more and I think that more help should be given to people having those thoughts. However, suicide is ultimately a choice made by you and for you, which objectively makes it selfish. It's okay to be selfish, though, as another commenter stated.
I don't think being selfish is always a bad thing. I agree that mental illness is real, I have mental illness myself so I definitely agree. I think that one can make their own decisions about suicide/DNR/assisted suicide, and i would not want someone to live a torturous existence if they didn't want to, but ultimately the choice is by you and for you, which makes it a selfish act, objectively speaking.
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u/c0uchpizza Aug 13 '21
What if they didn’t want to live?