r/politics 17d ago

It's OK to blame the unvaccinated — they are robbing the rest of us of our freedoms

https://www.salon.com/2021/08/12/its-ok-to-blame-the-unvaccinated--they-are-robbing-the-rest-of-us-of-our-freedoms/
51k Upvotes

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u/Mr-and-Mrs 17d ago edited 16d ago

Ironic that red anti-mask/vaxx states now need federal support. I guess democratic socialism will bail them out again. Also next year when a massive hurricane hits Texas or Florida.

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u/Available_Coyote897 17d ago

And we’ll keep giving it to them. And they’ll keep hating us for it.

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u/i_drink_wd40 Connecticut 17d ago edited 16d ago

If only we could attach conditions to the aid. "You get money to expand your roads, but DeSantis has to publicly compliment one of Nancy Pelosi's policies".

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u/drewofdoom 17d ago

Nah, would be better to attach conditions like "you need to improve public schools in these specific ways."

We wouldn't have such a large anti-vax problem if people were better-educated.

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u/SweetBearCub 16d ago

Nah, would be better to attach conditions like "you need to improve public schools in these specific ways."

We wouldn't have such a large anti-vax problem if people were better-educated.

I can assure you that it is absolutely not a coincidence that public education has been under attack in multiple ways by conservatives for many years.

The long and short of it is that having an under-educated population suits the needs of conservatives.

They want people who can read and write, but not people who question things too much. These people make ideal wage slaves.

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u/Dogsy 16d ago

Just smart enough to work and operate machines, dumb enough to vote Republican.

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u/fujiman 16d ago

They want people who can read and write, but not people who question things too much.

Then add in unregulated extremist propaganda (fucker Carlson as the prime example) to tell them what to question - pretty much always leaving out or lying about something critical... like silly old context - and baby you've got a stew going!

Basically without addressing the two symbiotic cancers leading to our societal decay, it's the whole symptom vs root cause. And we've gotten really good at barely even bandaging the symptoms, while pretending the root cause either isn't a thing, or is just "too hard" to deal with.

You know, it's like JFK said, "We will not go to the Moon in this decade, or do the other things. They are too hard."

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u/SweetBearCub 16d ago

You know, it's like JFK said, "We will not go to the Moon in this decade, or do the other things. They are too hard."

Some people appear to actually believe that, and to me, it's bullshit, not because it's an affront (it is), but rather because they waited to post this shit after all the thousands of people who made this possible are either dead or very retired.

They could have brought this up when we actually did it, with tv programs, newspaper articles (etc), and yet they did not, because they knew that the people who worked on those programs would fight back against the misinformation. They knew their bullshit would be proven wrong and called out.

Waiting until people are either dead or very retired/elderly to call bullshit on their lifes work is nothing beyond cowardice.

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u/theyodeler69 16d ago

You realize that the least educated areas in the country vote democrat right? I’m not even political, but I’ve got a degree in political science and this is a fact.

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u/drewofdoom 16d ago

First of all, you need to support your claims, because that flies in the face of all the data I've seen in the past. Democrats are overwhelmingly better-educated than Republicans according to modern data.

Second of all, it's rather dubious that you claim to have a degree in poli sci but aren't political. Did your parents force you to go to college and you just threw a dart at a list of majors or something? People who pursue higher education don't graduate with a degree in something they don't give a shit about.

Third of all, "education" means a lot of things. One of the most important aspects of education is something called "critical thinking." That's where you inspect something you're hearing, seeing, or reading beyond the surface level. This allows you to understand it more deeply, and more importantly these days, decide if it's bullshit or not.

People who believe in conspiracy theories don't have strong critical thinking skills. If they did, they would realize that these batshit theories do not stand up to logic.

Therefore, people in red states that accept federal funds (lol, socialism) would benefit from a curriculum that strengthens critical thinking skills. It's not even about R vs D, it's about the fate of the country.

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u/theyodeler69 16d ago

Also please check out how the poorest and least educated areas of our country vote. It’s a quick duck duck go search away. I’d suggest using a search browser that doesn’t show you only what it wants to. Google literally testified in front of congress that they only show results that they want to and that fall in line with the companies own agendas. This is a fact, it was recorded, and it’s their right as a company to do whatever the hell they wish to do. So they aren’t even in the wrong for doing it, just exercising their own rights as we all should.

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u/drewofdoom 16d ago

1) I work in IT. I know how duck duck go and Google work.

2) Saying "go look it up for yourself" is not a valid method of providing sources. This virtually guarantees that I would read different materials than the ones you trust, which makes discussion about the legitimacy of your sources and argument impossible.

I'm going to continue to ignore your weird, unfounded claims.

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u/theyodeler69 16d ago

You realize that most conspiracy theories aren’t theories at all right? You realize that people always claim things to be conspiracies until they are proven true? Did you know that basic science was thought of as witchcraft and that natural phenomenons that have occurred throughout history have been labeled as conspiracy theories until they were proven true? People who write off conspiracy theories without even researching or having an open mind to the fact that EVERYTHING is possible are close minded ignoramuses. Public schools are literally a joke. They indoctrinate employees for corporate America. People who can’t think on their own and only can think what they are told by others. I agree that this comes down to the fate of our country, and currently we are allowing the top 1% to control us completely, and now allowing them to conform us into the perfect rule following unquestioning employees that they want.

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u/drewofdoom 16d ago

You are conflating "scientific theory" with "conspiracy theory." They're two separate things which really don't relate to watch other.

Conspiracy Theory: an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful groups, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable. The term has a negative connotation, implying that the appeal to a conspiracy is based on prejudice or insufficient evidence. A conspiracy theory is not the same as a conspiracy; instead, it refers to a hypothesized conspiracy with specific characteristics, such as an opposition to the mainstream consensus among those people (such as scientists or historians) who are qualified to evaluate its accuracy.

Scientific Theory: an explanation of an aspect of the natural world and universe that can be repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts.

Your antigovernment stance is built on a tower of lies. instead of telling others to go "do the research," how about you pick up a book? Something accredited, by a respected historian/scientist/journalist... It would probably do you some good.

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u/SweetBearCub 16d ago

You realize that the least educated areas in the country vote democrat right? I’m not even political, but I’ve got a degree in political science and this is a fact.

Show me your data, please. Will read and respond tomorrow.

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u/theyodeler69 16d ago

It’s easily found. The poorest counties in the country have been voting blue since the 60s.

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u/SweetBearCub 16d ago

It’s easily found. The poorest counties in the country have been voting blue since the 60s.

I won't be baited into some version of "just go research it". You said that you have a degree in political science and posited a fact. Please prove it, with peer-reviewed science.

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u/BucephalusOne 16d ago

Bull. Shit.

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u/theyodeler69 16d ago

Do some research. It’s easily found.

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u/BucephalusOne 16d ago

Ahh the great refrain of those who don't understand research.

I literally work in the data sector of life sciences. No bullshit on youtube is research. What I do every day is research.

Piss off.

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u/FledAccrossTheDesert 16d ago

you need to improve public schools in these specific ways.

so what do you do when they fail to meet this? you'll never get the money back, and even if you did (or withhold future money) it would all just fuck over the poor (which is why red states need blue help in the first place)

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u/drewofdoom 16d ago

Well, fucking over the poor is not exactly a red state problem. I just moved from Georgia, and I can tell you that while the problem is exacerbated in red states, it's not substantially different from how blue states treat the poor.

That said, you enforce it by tying it to stipulations such as "if you fall to meet the goals, you forfeit X federal funds for Y." Y could be infrastructure, police budgets, tax breaks for the rich, whatever. Something that actually hurts.

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u/badSparkybad 16d ago

Yes, many of the people that fall for conspiracy theories do so because they are just straight up dumbasses. But you would probably be surprised at the number of people that are generally intelligent that fall into conspiracy rabbit holes.

The problem is much more complicated than that and there are alot of factors at play that contribute to these belief systems.

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u/drewofdoom 16d ago

You're definitely not wrong. One of my coworkers is among that group. I would argue that intelligent does not automatically mean that they have learned critical thinking skills, though.

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u/badSparkybad 16d ago

It's not even a lack of critical thinking skills, these types of conspiracy movements hit a bunch of emotional triggers for their adherents. It's why it's so hard to pull them out of such movements, simply demonstrating that their beliefs are false through evidence absolutely will not work, and not because they are too stupid to understand the evidence but because they do not want to believe the evidence.

The ability of humans, even incredibly smart humans, to engage in disastrous levels of self delusion to try and interpret the reality around them in a way they find emotionally satisfying is astounding.

Many of them believe not because they are too stupid to believe otherwise, but because they want to believe.

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u/Testicleezee4SheeZe 16d ago

You'd think that the uneducated would be the most hesitant, but if you educate yourself:

The largest decrease in hesitancy between January and May by education group was in those with a high school education or less. Hesitancy held constant in the most educated group (those with a Ph.D.); by May Ph.D.’s were the most hesitant group.

https://www.upmc.com/media/news/072621-king-mejia-vaccine-hesitancy

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u/Nearbyatom 16d ago

you need to improve public schools in these specific ways."

They'll run out crying how the libs are trying to push the liberal agenda onto kids. Very predictable.

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u/GenericHamburgerHelp 17d ago

That would take generations to work.

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u/ObscureSaint 17d ago

Gotta start somewhere.

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u/drewofdoom 16d ago

Minimum of one generation, yes. But it's something that is drastically holding this country back.

If you want democracy to succeed, invest in education. If you want this country to prosper, invest in education.

If we don't plant the seeds now, then we're just pushing progress back a generation. Then the next generation also pushes it back because, "oh, it doesn't immediately fix the problem? Fuck it, then."

Very few things worth doing on the national level happen quickly, and with large educational investments we're talking decades before the fruit is ripe. However, the dividends we would see in 20-40 years are incredible.

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u/GenericHamburgerHelp 16d ago

I totally agree.

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u/abortedfetu5 16d ago

It would take 20 years tops. If you can squash any kind of political uprising and make people conform (see the CCP) in that amount of time, then this is possible in that timeframe.

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u/Available_Coyote897 16d ago

Or simply cut them out of the funding pie. If your congress person doesn’t vote for it, you don’t get it.

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u/chrisdurand American Expat 17d ago

Nah, we should steal an idea from, of all places, China: when a governor asks the federal government for help there, they say yes -- if the governor tenders a resignation letter. After the federal government fixes things, they do an investigation into whether the issue was caused by the governor or not. If they aren't found negligent, their resignation is not accepted and they return to being governor.

Boom. Two birds, one stone.

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u/i_drink_wd40 Connecticut 16d ago

That's ... actually very good. A shame it would have to rely on personal responsibility here until it could be enshrined in law.

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u/Testicleezee4SheeZe 16d ago

This would definitely never be abused by opposing parties.

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u/BloodySox 16d ago

This is a disastrous idea for that reason. Imagine a natural disaster hitting a Democratic state during Trump's tenure. There is no way that the Trump Admin wouldn't just remove every Dem governor without doing a proper investigation.

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u/emsuperstar District Of Columbia 16d ago edited 16d ago

I would worry about elected officials prioritizing keeping their title with all its bells and whistles over helping their constituents.

It is a pretty clever idea though!

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u/UnableFishing1 16d ago

Then the states that need it most would never ask for aid. Governors like DeSantis or Abbott would literally rather let their constituents die in mass than make any personal sacrifice or admit any potential fault as they are currently showing.

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u/j_la Florida 16d ago edited 16d ago

In the US, though, the federal government doesn’t have the jurisdiction to accept or reject a governor’s resignation.

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u/Level21DungeonMaster 16d ago

They are called amendments.

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u/j_la Florida 16d ago

That would be more than a simple amendment: it would be a complete overhaul of the constitution that would centralize authority in the federal government (something resembling a unitary government rather than a federation).

Good luck getting the states to ratify an amendment stripping themselves of their basic autonomy.

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u/Level21DungeonMaster 16d ago

you're boring.

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u/hybridthm 16d ago

No actually they aren't - you're just being petty

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u/rockdude14 17d ago

How about you get aid when you restore voters rights?

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u/doctorhoctor 16d ago

I would rather say “No more welfare queen states. You can’t get more than you put in” and let’s see how these small government, don’t tread on me states start calling foul when their state budgets are completely exposed for the fraud they are?

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u/Snowstig 16d ago

Yes! I keep saying this too! I'm sick of blue states supporting the red states.

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u/Ornery_Adult 16d ago

That’s a little weak.

Send the aid only if every federal and statewide elected official that has publicly made an antivax l or antimask statement resigns.

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u/i_drink_wd40 Connecticut 16d ago

We still actually want them to accept the aid. We've seen how cheap they consider the lives of their constituents.

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u/theodinspire 16d ago

GOP governors like DeSantis have too much pride for that.

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u/RainbowNinjaKat 16d ago

Why should anyone ever compliment that wretch? She is a fucking criminal like all the rest of congress. Every single one

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u/i_drink_wd40 Connecticut 16d ago

Such a low, low bar, and you've demonstrated why Republican politicians would fail spectacularly. Over the course of a long career, you've really got nothing? Either you're ideologically corrupt and it's just a reflex, or you have the memory of a goldfish and can't look anything up.

If I personally were to be given a few thousand to compliment trump, I could probably spend a bit of time researching to find something.

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u/opgrrefuoqu 16d ago

to compliment trump

He gave voice to general discontent and brought some fairly widespread issues to light and/or garnered attention on them, such as the trade reliance on relatively unfriendly foreign states (China).

And now to balance that: but all of his proposed solutions were designed either to enrich himself/his cronies, or were absolute shit to begin with and would only make the problems much much worse.

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u/BorpidyDop 16d ago

lmao even in their own fantasies democrats have no teeth

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u/i_drink_wd40 Connecticut 16d ago

I was thinking that it was a low, low, low bar, costs nearly nothing, still damn near impossible to clear for them anyway, and creates an exploitable PR win that would also make a republican unpalatable for their base. And by tying aid to simple measures like that, it would become unreasonable to refuse because the money cost to benefit ratio is so high.

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u/SizzleFrazz Georgia 16d ago

Then we should stop giving it since they obviously don’t want it.

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u/Dathouen Virginia 16d ago

They don't hate that these systems exist, they hate that we expect them to pay their fair share. They act like this so they don't have to contribute to the systems that are literally keeping them alive and their economies afloat.

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u/Nearbyatom 16d ago edited 16d ago

"ugh! them dems pushing their socialism on us!....ok, I guess we'll take it if it means saving us red states." -- red states

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u/hellfirecat1 17d ago

Nope. It's not ironic. We've been bailing out red states for years.

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u/[deleted] 17d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/hellfirecat1 16d ago

What physical restrictions?

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u/[deleted] 16d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/hellfirecat1 16d ago

Disease state or injury origin? There are alot of jobs that only require sitting. Data entry is one. Physical therapy is a booger. You have to push yourself into a state of pain to try and get rid of pain. Being in constant pain is physically exhausting and mentally demanding.

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u/[deleted] 16d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/hellfirecat1 16d ago

Yuk. I can emphasize with you. I got shoved out of an airborne plane during survival training. I landed badly. My legs and back are made of metal. My shoulder was shattered after an explosion of a jet. I make the terminator look like a toy.

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u/[deleted] 16d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/hellfirecat1 16d ago

It's fun going through metal detectors. Lol. I was watching what's called touch and goes on the flight line and got out to go to the tower for a soda. We had to be there for possible in flight emergencies. One f4 landed safely but as he was lifting back up the nose gear dropped off by metal fatigue. I went running out to the flight line and got yanked backwards off my feet by my jacket. Thankfully. The jet exploded and I got a concussion from the blast wave. If I hadn't been yanked back, it would have been much worse. I was nicknamed Tigger because I bounce. ROTFLMAO

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u/nitefang 17d ago

Red states almost universally need more support from the federal government than blue states.

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u/The_Umpire_Lestat Washington 17d ago

Even the exceptions tend to be heavily reliant on exploiting natural resources.

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u/General-Syrup 16d ago

And their constituents

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u/mrg1957 17d ago

I think a couple of hurricanes are lining up at Florida as we type.

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u/13B1P 17d ago

It's like mother nature is getting sick of our shit.

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u/rividz 17d ago

The planet will go on in one form or another after climate change, we won't.

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u/Ok-Concentrate-3009 16d ago

Woah thats deep dude

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u/_CAPTAIN_CAPSLOCK_ Europe 16d ago

Deep? It's a no brainer.

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u/kitsunewarlock 16d ago

Sad part is how unlikely it is that any other species will be able to get off the rock before it's completely destroyed by a space-born disaster that leaves no room for intelligent life on the planet...

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u/Kugar Georgia 16d ago

Uh oh, is mother nature unvaccinated as well?!

0

u/Ok-Concentrate-3009 16d ago

Ye! Its just like the 60s ! Rock n roll baby! Mother nature ye!

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u/dvddesign 16d ago

To be honest, Florida’s been kinda asking for it this year. Sad, but true.

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u/[deleted] 17d ago edited 17d ago

Oh shit, remember Florida is dangerous, never come here. The hurricanes will wipe out all the New Yorker and New Jersian vacation homes and investment properties, so fuck off somewhere else.

I hope they repair my surfboard in time.

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u/watwatintheput 17d ago edited 16d ago

We should do what we did for ACA and drinking ages:

States only get federal funding to deal with COVID if they have mask mandates and vaccination mandates for state employees.

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u/Recording_Important 16d ago

Im all for it.

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u/Sinfall69 16d ago

Next year? Hurricane season is just getting underway...

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u/Diplomjodler 16d ago

Not ironic at all. Those fuckers always get more federal funds than they pay in. What's ironic is how the US political system is set up to allow a small minority of morons to fuck shit up for the majority.

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u/Galacanokis 16d ago

You realize Florida's vaccination rate is right in line with nation average?

0

u/NashaaTime America 17d ago

Agree, but I don’t believe that’s democratic socialism. I’d advise looking into the difference between social democracy, democratic socialism, capitalism, etc.

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u/hellfirecat1 17d ago

Oh BS. Whip out the scary words socialism.

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u/5510 16d ago

Federal relief for hurricanes is bullshit most of the time IMO.

At the state level, hurricanes are pretty predictable. There is a literal “hurricane season” every year. At this point, if people choose to live in an area with REGULAR hurricanes, then dealing with that has to be baked into their own cost of living.

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u/drunktacos 16d ago

We still got another couple months of hurricane season...it's very possible that Florida, Texas, Louisiana, Mississipi, or Alabama buckles under hospital/emergency services stress from one bad storm.

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u/MDCCCLV 16d ago

It was cool in the Gulf this year, but it should shift to warmer next year so yeah I expect some big Hurricanes next year.

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u/Snowstig 16d ago

Give them nothing until they mandate masks and vaccines. I'm sick of supporting these welfare states only to have them turn around and cry "SOciALiSm BAd!" You don't like socialism? Then you don't get to benefit from it.

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u/ohwhofuckincares 16d ago

Yep, just look at Mississippi. Our gov requested a navy hospital ship be brought to the coast because our hospitals are at max capacity and we don’t have enough nurses to tend to patients while in the same exact day saying he will never mandate masks or have a lockdown. They want it both ways now.

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u/yuckystuff 16d ago

FYI: Black Americans have the lowest vaccination rates. I would argue that is understandable considering the US government has never shown themselves to be trustworthy, but yeah...

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u/Venkman_P 16d ago

Also next year when a massive hurricane hits Texas or Florida.

Next week you mean. Peak hurricane season is ahead of us.

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u/momotye_revamped 16d ago

They don't want the help so why do you vote for it and complain?

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u/Super_Whack 16d ago

Empathy mostly

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u/momotye_revamped 16d ago

Helping people who neither ask for nor need help isn't empathy, it's jerking off how charitible you can appear.

0

u/jfoot53 16d ago

You mean like desantis downplaying I he severity of Florida’s outbreak and then requesting ventilators from the feds?

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u/bettingmexican 16d ago

The biggest anti vaxxers are minorities.

2

u/code_archeologist Georgia 16d ago

That is misinformation

Americans who have said that they are definitely not getting the vaccine are:

  • 65% White non-hispanic
  • 58% Republican (15% identify as Democrats)
  • 80% do not have a college degree