I don’t want them denied medical care. I want them to stand by their beliefs if they test positive for covid and stay the fuck home. If covid isn’t a big deal, if you don’t need vaccination, if masks don’t work. Stay the fuck at home and deal. Give these medical workers a break.
While I agree with you, this is contrary to their "logic". If covid isn't a big deal, they see no need to stay at home, or to take any other measures against it.
I believe the commentor above you was speaking in reference to conservatives tying up hospital resources and clogging up the health system i.e. stay the fuck home and deal (with it when your covid invection prevents you from breathing).
If the health insurance companies don’t cover (or barely cover) the incredibly expensive life saving medical care that was so easily preventable with a vaccine, then I think the issue would solve itself. I get that this could be a slippery slope, and you wouldnt want to deny coverage to someone with a breakthrough case. But in general, taking a step thats about 99.995% effective at preventing hospitalization should be a requirement in order to get help paying for the hospitalization costs.
I do think these things will start to happen once the vaccine is fda approved. That is going to make a big difference in the rate of companies and governments adopting vaccine mandates. IMO.
I don’t want them denied medical care. I want them to stand by their beliefs if they test positive for covid and stay the fuck home. If covid isn’t a big deal, if you don’t need vaccination, if masks don’t work. Stay the fuck at home and deal. Give these medical workers a break.
As much as I agree with you, many would still show up at a hospital, and they would say "I don't care what the test says, I don't have covid, but I have something. Treat me."
I do. These people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Just like motorcycle helmet laws. Bikers don't want to wear helmets, ma freedums! But when they crack their head open, we airlift them to the hospital and treat them whether they have insurance or not.
It's not society's job to bail you out when you stupidly hurt yourself. That's the system we get though...
True, but they are more likely to die and bring everyone else down. Let’s go with the unvaccinated for actual medical reasons at the bottom, they must be going through a lot of shit right now. Let us hope they stay strong through this. I’m good with them holding us all up.
I hereby put forth a motion to make "bottom of the barrel" no longer a degrading modifier, as the bottom of the barrel is the most important part of a barrel.
I suppose it also depends upon the substance that barrel holds and your preferences regarding it. If anyone wishes to start a committee about evaluating the complexities of "half full"/"half empty," I fully support it.
Bottom of the barrel is referring to what's left after you remove everything.
It's a saying that comes from food storage, particularly. By the time you got down to the bottom, things were maybe not quite rotting, but close to it.
Ah but the phrase about the barrel is not referencing the bottom of the barrel itself, but the end of the contents within which usually are the nasty, worst leftovers that settle to the bottom.
The bottom of the totem pole seems to actually reserved for the most important people
According to Canadian naturalist, Pat Kramer—an expert on First Nations culture—the lowest figures on the totem pole are often considered the most prestigious. The designs on the bottom are the ones that will be seen at eyelevel, after all, so they are usually carved by the master while the apprentices work on the higher portions. The higher up the figure is on a totem pole, the more representational they are.
So let’s put them on the top or just leave them off the whole thing entirely…
Do what Germany is doing and force Anti-Vaxxers to pay for their own Covid testing. Then use that money to fund vaccines for underprivileged countries.
Then use that money to fund vaccines for underprivileged countries.
We know this will never happen. If the rich countries really wanted to help the poor countries, they would have waived the patents, thus allowing anyone to manufacturer vaccines.
We know this will never happen. If the rich countries really wanted to help the poor countries, they would have waived the patents, thus allowing anyone to manufacturer vaccines.
And how do you guarantee the highest safety and control mechanisms in a multitude of (3rd world) countries?
Operating machines in the millions with technical measures and production lines that vaccine producers are just getting comfortable with?
You can't just ship some nanoparticles and mRNA printers around the world and start pumping out production lines.
Are you of the opinion that medication is produced with the press of a button?
Who is there to keep charge? (With sufficient knowledge). Do these countries provide their own bioengineering/mRNA/pharmaceutical experts? Who does quality control? Who sets up and maintains air cleaning systems? Who checks PPE and safety regulations? Who controls health regulations in poor countries ridden with corruption?
One bad charge, one that's contaminated with the result of many people dying and noone else is ever gonna take vaccines again.
That doesn't work. Quality control will sink, some bad vaccines will be produced and make people sick or kill them, fuelling the antivax flames.
But perhaps rich countries who do have the skill to produce vaccines should do so, similar to how they can take over production of essential goods in war time.
It's weird right. We have it here in the country and are scratching our heads as well.
According to a guy from aljazeera it might have to do something with the fact that kickbacks are illegal for US based companies. But I'm not sure about that.
I think it might be simply that fact that China was able to deliver when all the other supply was bought up by the West.
That sound like a terrible idea. You need specialized and highly regulated facilities to make vaccines. If you allow everyone to make them, you'll have a ton of not only ineffective vaccines on the market, but possibly highly dangerous ones, which would only spur the anti-vaxxers on to thinking they're right.
Same. I know it's an immoral thought, but when you realize that them clogging up the hospital system due to selfish reasons is going to cost the lives of people that genuinely need hospital support (like those with cancer), it doesn't feel exactly immoral.
Right now, junkies are being turned out because critically ill people get first priority in triage. No rehab beds. No psyche beds. Very limited trauma beds. No selective surgery. We do not have either staff or equipment or medications for the overflow. The same jackasses who howl about their "freedoms and rights" are the ones howling about how long its taking to get a bed or medication when they're sick.
Apley found out way too late what a moron he was. We are running out of medication to safely intubate. People have no idea what hell is with a big tube shoved down your throat is like completely conscious. Your hands tied down and restrained so you don't yank it out and rip your airway apart with the balloon that keeps it in place.
Agreed. I went into respiratory distress during a cardiac procedure (it was minor, I was awake) and not being able to breathe was terrifying. As I went unconscious I wasn't expecting to wake up again.
When I did wake up, I was disoriented and didn't know where I was. I couldn't talk because of this large tube in my throat, and immediately discovered my hands were strapped down. That was practically as terrifying.
Yup. It's just like a bladder catheter only bigger in a different place. The throat is highly muscular. You will try to expel something that your body thinks is blocking your airway. That's why people have to be restrained. They frequently try to yank them out.
I think they were asking if your field intubation was a combitube (aka King tube). They're a lot easier to place in the field, sounds like the kind you had.
They are the worst aren't they? I'm in the biggest medical center in the world. It's not a happy place, but it has got to the point that when we get word that someone particularly awful coded and couldn't be revived, we say something like, "Oh no... Anyways."
I freely admit I hate losing patients. I've beat on their chests trying to drag them back. That's one of the reasons this is so damn frustrating. I've had idiots attack me because of diagnosis they would not , did not understand or agree with. It's different with COVID-19. They are actually demanding garbage because a reality show fruitcake told them too.
I don't know if you've spent a lot of time in a trauma center, but after a shit ton of death, everyone starts to look like meat. The human mind has its limits, and you gotta roll out onto some other duty. The problem with covid is, there is no other duty.
I'm a combat medic veteran and medical professional. I've worked with doctors without borders before. I still would but I can't right now. That's why I have a gym in my house. I just got through beating a punching bag senseless after a long day. I can't punch patients. I won't drink myself to death either to deal with the frustration and death either. Idiots who refuse to take it seriously are exactly like drunks who drive or junkies who only thinks of the world revolving around them. They do not give a rat's ass about anyone except themselves. They do not care about the wake of devastation they are leaving behind.
Some people can take it. Most people can't. It is what it is, heh. I've got a bunch of staff that are on a pretty high dose of SSRI's or Benzos and they are still about to break.
Yup. I thought a resident had a piece of tape on his scrub pants. I yanked on it. He had a butterfly IV in his lower leg. So he could keep it open to inject drugs. He would steal narcotics from the nursing home he did staffing in. I had a nurse go batshit while taking care of an aortic balloon pump patient. She simply cracked up with no warning. I bounced my flight surgeon off his feet when he came into the ER with a beer and a 45. He had lost his wife suddenly and he was our only surgeon on call. He could not simply shut off his feelings. None of us can.
Yup. I know. I've busted more than one doctor and nurse who turned into a drunk or junkie. I've known fellow medical professionals who turn their exhaustion on patients. Nurses who kill patients. Intentionally. Doctors who are code junkies. We are human beings. I have family too. Just like cops who see people at their most vulnerable and worst, then have to go home and forget it.
We've got a pretty good protocol for rolling people off services that we know are pretty emotionally damaging to mitigate this. The problem is that we can't really roll people off dealing with covid patients during these surges. It's all hands on deck.
I can see how you thought that was the topic of conversation since the other guy was talking about dealing with drug addicts. The points being made in this thread were about the amount of stress and emotional damage coming in, and SSRIs and Benzos are what staff have been prescribed to treat that emotional damage/mental trauma. I'm not sure why he kept bringing up drug addicts. My best guess is that it's just an additional problem he is dealing with in his hospital. Also a generalization like "Texans are fidiots" is typically the kind of thing a "fidiot" would say.
I understand. I posted about an impossible situation my mother is in. The staff are great. I’m not angry with staff. I’m angry with the government who demand our taxes but offer no protection from a real threat. Silly wars intervening in other nations demanding they treat their people better when we cannot take care our own.
I wish those who think this is a joke would suit up in full PPE for an hour. It’s hot. Sweaty. Cumbersome. Pretty awful. Turning patients. Running from one catastrophe to another for 10+ hours a day with no end in sight.
I hope you're doing better now. We've had an increase in gunshot victims in my area. We are having to leave them outside because our bays are crammed with people. We've had trauma victims of wrecks that had to wait because people have been fighting with us to get in because they got COVID-19. It doesn't matter if someone else is sick or dying, these people howl, I come first. In essence that's what they're saying because they refuse to take it seriously and work together to fight it. I understand people being afraid because they cannot breathe. I understand wanting to get your kids taken care of. Of getting your elderly parents seen if they can't breathe or are having a stroke. Unfortunately, we only have so much staffing, equipment, medication and beds.
Well, that's an age old question in ethics and morality. The trolly problem. One answer/justification is "whichever solution saves more lives", but ultimately the decision costs lives as well. It's not a decision I would make in a slapdash way. I'd at least warn people it was coming and give them a chance to reconsider.
Correct, but my addendum is to just tell the people saying it's a hoax. "You are free to believe that, but if you remain on these tracks, we are going run you over with that train you can see heading your way at about 120mph. Good luck."
It's more like there are people who have tied themselves firmly to the tracks and also to people who do believe in the train and want to get off, but they cannot because they are tied to the train-deniers.
If we could build train wheels that skip over believers and kill only deniers, then I wouldn't even touch the train's brakes, but we can't do that.
Except in this case you have one track where people fell on the track and thr other where people purposely jumped on the track saying "there is no trolly". I think if you have to pick a track, this one is rather easy.
Isn't that the trolly problem in a nutshell. When presented, the people are usually stupidly on the tracks and could easily move or just not fucking be on the train tracks. No one seems to point this out.
Most formulations of the trolley problem include some excuse for the people to be on the track. My teachers talked about an evil villain, or some vague, undefined confluence of circumstances. The point of the thought experiment isn't to nitpick details like that, it's to examine what sort of actions you would be okay with morally, and whether you have a consistent justification across formulations. You seem to have missed the point.
I've always either heard the "tied to the tracks" version or the "railroad work crew" version, I dunno what this "vague, undefined confluence of circumstances" version is but it sounds really existential.
"Due to a concatenation of events, six humans' lives have lead up to a moment in which they all find themselves on the tracks ahead of an out of control trolley. Whether or not you pull the lever to switch the track the trolley goes down, can any of us be truly said to have any actual control over the outcome of our existence?"
I think if you have to pick and choose who lives, which we do here, then the lives of the people choosing to endanger everyone else out of selfishness and negligence are worth less than everyone else.
It's not immoral. Option 1) Deny healthcare to anti-vaxers: only they die. Option 2) Let them have healthcare: they kill potentially themselves and others who can't get care. More people die with option 2.
I get what you are saying, but in an ethics class you'd have the counterargument of choosing who lives and dies as being its own moral issue, and by letting the selfish simply choose to take up bed space and thus kill others, it is they who were free to make the immoral choice, so you didn't have to. Morality is a moving target. In our righteous anger we think, "fuck these selfish and evil creatures." I get it, I think it too. But then we stop and think, "What's to stop someone else from deciding something I'm doing is selfish and evil and they should get to kill me? Sure their opinion is wrong, but I opened the door to make it okay for a person to decide if I get to live just based on their moral judgement of my choices." Sucks. It's the same issue with how our gov got rid of small pox and polio. People leigt fought against it to. The gov went full authoritarian and said, "fuck you, you are getting the shots" which worked out, but there is nothing that could stop them from being authoritarian and doing something evil with that power. It's a rock and a hard place without some benevolent immortal king saying, "fuck it, I'm just going to make all the moral choices from now on."
It's the same issue with how our gov got rid of small pox and polio.
Except the US government has actually hindered the getting rid of polio. It's because of the actions of a US government agency (the CIA) that polio still hasn't been eradicated from the world:
My mom is vaccinated. She doesn’t (well idk about now) have COVID but had a stroke two nights ago. I live in another state. I’m the eldest and the therefore saddled with responsibility for my parents. I headed to the airport to jump on a flight 2hr 10min flight away.
I had to board a flight jam packed with people who did not need to travel. I had a N95 (fitted)and a shield on. It was infuriating. Then I finally see her and head to her place to sleep after seeing her in the hospital and whatnot.
I kid you not that my mom called me this morning even though she cannot see well (the stroke affected her vision) telling me staff was donning and doffing infectious disease PPE outside of her room. They kept leaving her door open as well. She asked if COVID patients were on the floor. This is the Neuro ICU. Shifty eyes. Nurse told her she couldn’t disclose others diagnosis’s. Wtf? I’m so angry.
My mom is hooked up vital medications and is still under observation. I’m sick. Sick to my stomach. I performed her hygiene care (demoralizing as I am her daughter)and brought her an actual medical N95 and sanitizer. I even brought my own rapid COVID test (I know they are unreliable and must be verified with a PCR) expecting some kind of check? Some kind of rules? Nothing but hygiene theater that clocks out and leaves the entry to the hospital unmanned.
This is in a major city in the United States. Im disgusted. I feel betrayed by my country. Bonus: I saw children arriving to emergency in poor shape. Extra bonus: I was asked if I was there visiting someone on comfort care. FYI comfort care is not always end of life care but it is more often than not. Again, wth?
I’m upset. I think I have a right to be upset. I need to get my mother out and transferred where? Another hospital with more of the same? How can you ethically put COVID positive patients on a neuro ward with medically fragile patients. It’s wrong.
I want to see them denied insurance coverage for their medical care. If they're knowingly going to do something stupid, then insurance should be able to just say nope! Once they get saddled with the mountains of debt for being moronic idiots, it'll just be some sweet, sweet justice.
Just about all insurance policies charge a premium for smokers. The way I see it someone without up to date vaccines should pay a steep premium as well.
This world be the free market solution. And I agree. You don't have to get vaccinated--but if you're going to play pErSoNaL rEsPoNsiBiLiTy, you should be personally responsible, in fully legal and financial ways.
Medicare and medicaid is going bankrupt. People are losing everything. Hospitals are suing patients and taking everything. They are for profit. Debtors court is working against them.
Yeah I don't have a lot of empathy for these people and I think blaming them and trying to hold them to account is fair but at the end of the day they're human beings with family's and friends and people who will miss them. Also, most of them have been deeply misled by a very well funded propaganda machine. Some of these folks never had a chance.
What bothers me about all this isn't when people shrug their shoulders about it (I understand that reaction; we are all tired), it is the sheer amount of glee I am beginning to see on the internet about this. Its beginning to be a bit disturbing.
I would argue that they be provided the best medical care available for car crashes, stroke, heart attacks... but if they come in with Covid, treat them as a consciously chosen DNR and save the life-saving treatment for responsible citizens.
ironically, the un-vaxxed would be the first to say that we should deny medical care to a whole list of "undesirables": from incarcerated inmates to undocumented migrants to homeless to indigent on welfare.
In a heart beat. Donnie has turned people into labels. He calls everyone who disagrees with him RINOS or "radical leftists" just like Hitler howled jews.
DNR, treat these people like that when they hit the ICU. We're going to see healthy people dying because these losers can't get a simple jab. Insurance companies need to stop covering unvaccinated CV patients.
Omg finally someone said it. I’ve been too afraid to say it because I didn’t want people to see me as heartless, but in my opinion, denying them care just forces them to finally face the consequences of their actions.
I've been a medical professional for over 40 years. I've never wanted to do that. Ever. COVID-19 is evolving far too fast. These idiots have politicized a virus. If China had intended to use COVID-19 as biological warfare they achieved their goal with donnie's incompetent response and his followers refusal to take it seriously and work together to fight it instead of spreading it. They want to take medical advice from a reality show fruitcake.
Yep. These people should (and will) simply die alone, completely isolated & without any help. It's the way they want this country to function so it's a fitting end for their pathetic shitty selfish lives. They will leave behind a legacy of failure, fear and hate.
Or... OR... We don't fall into the trap where we blame people of equal or less privilege than ourselves in a way that doesn't fix anything. And we fight for a more robust healthcare system and better pay for workers in a way that can absorb the consequences of our idiot neighbors as well as those who they unfairly hurt. Maybe? Idk trying to find a positive way to react and move forward here. It's so fucking hopeless otherwise.
You don't understand. Money does not deal with the pain and frustration we face dealing with people who flat refuse to take it seriously and work together to fight it instead of spreading it. Money doesn't make up for the insane people who come in for medical care then scream we got the diagnosis and treatment wrong because a moron like donnie said so. Money doesn't deal with the physical attacks by these dipsticks. The threats.
You're right, I don't have any of those experiences. I didn't mean to minimize those in any way and I apologize if what I said was belittling. I'm just trying to strive for some way to wrap my head around this all that doesn't lead to me throwing up my hands. It's all just so so fucked. I know it's not much but I'll keep praying for you and your coworkers safety and advocating to as many people in my life as I can to get vaccinated and wear masks. It's all I feel like I can do right now.
Thank you. I've been attacked by patients who do not, will not accept a diagnosis. Their families too. I remember when AIDS was first discovered. It was similar but it different because COVID-19 is an airborne virus. Morons who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about, listen to a reality show fruitcake regarding medical advice and care. The idiot who hid to take a vaccine he wants credit for. The idiot who knew COVID-19 was dangerous but did nothing. The guy who did not do his oath to the country and invoke the biological response team and have a coordinated response to biological assault. If China had intended to use COVID-19 as biological warfare they achieved their goal with donnie's incompetent response and his followers refusal to take it seriously and work together to fight it instead of spreading it. A fool who suggested drinking or injecting bleach or disinfectant. Because of him, this virus was politicized and now threatens the entire country.
ROTFLMAO. It's the statement of an exhausted doctor. People never understand until it happens to them. Even then some people get lost in a self pity fog. Of why did this happen to me?
I had a dummy howl at me earlier today. It's just the flu. Why can't you fix it? It's like people who howl about not being able to lose weight sucking down a diet coke with a pizza. Or people who howl about their blood sugar while mowing down donuts, then giggle and say they'll just have to take more insulin. Or like drunks who slaughter people and howl they only had 2 beers. People who have to have their airways rerouted because of cancer and they light up a cigarette. I could go on forever.
Yeah, I know they do. I've been a medical professional for over 40 years. Junkies murder people. They sell their kids for drugs. Drunks obliterate entire families. The difference is these idiots are refusing to take COVID-19 seriously and protect themselves and American citizens by working together to fight it instead of spreading it. You come on down and decide who gets what bed or treatment because you don't have anymore space or staff. Because of selfish idiots.
You keep waving that 40 years around like it means Jack shit when you want to deny people medical care
In my eyes a good medical professional would want to help anyone, you do not care for anyone. Have a good night. I’m not respond to anything else you say
Just fuck off. These people have all the opportunities in the world to do the right thing, but blatantly refuse to, thus endangering everyone.
That's akin to manslaughter.
Just shut up.
You do realize you said you want to DENY someone medical care for not getting the vaccine. People have every right not to get it. And at this point, they are only really effecting other unvaccinated people (breakthrough infections that lead to death or serious covid are extremely super rare) so with your logic you shouldn't give a shit.
I stopped caring about m4a or other healthcare reforms. We don’t deserve it and too many folks would ignore preventive care knowing a disaster would be covered.
Its not just that. If they dont trust the medical community to help keep them from getting sick in the first place, why do they all of a sudden trust it to cure them once they catch covid?
If they truly believe covid is a hoax they should stick to their guns and not go to the hospital.
Humans are built for survival. And when survival is threatened we become brutal animals. It was easier to pity them and want to help them when it was only themselves they hurt. But now theyre killing our friends and family and threatening the safety of our loved ones?
We are trying to find some way to just... make it alright, but eventually we are going to have to admit these people are our enemy. Its sad and shitty we have to ne enemies, but we are. Its not our decision. Its theirs, and theyve made it.
928
u/[deleted] 17d ago
[removed]