Just for context, Western Australia is the last state/territory to make it illegal. So, it's now illegal throughout Australia to protest outside abortion clinics, not just in WA.
Isn’t that how the law works though? We limit people’s freedom to do what we deem immoral? Isn’t that how murder works? I’m not free to kill because we think that killing is wrong.
Whether you think abortion is wrong is the debate, not whether we should force choices onto because because if you disagree with that, you’re basically an anarchist.
Sure, but we don't pass laws making necessary medical treatments illegal just because some religious nutjobs think it will jeopardize their place in their fantasy afterlife. They can choose not to undergo the medical treatment all they want, but forcing others not to is the problem.
I don’t think all abortions are a medical necessity and to refer to them all as such is dishonest. Many of them are for convenience.
Also, not all prolifers are religious. I know a few people who are against medically unnecessary abortions who aren’t religious. The idea that prolife is a purely religious stance is an attempt to blanket condemn the position without much effort. It also only works against people who use their religion as justification, which many people (even religious) don’t do.
The opinion of being against abortion is to be respected. However Protesting outside clinics is repulsive. People deserve privacy in difficult situations. Threatening and using violence is what makes them terrorists.
Yeah, but you're thinking sensitivity matters when in their eyes, you're literally murdering babies. Would you give a shit about sensitivity if LGBT people were being murdered or imprisoned?
Because in most cases, having an abortion is fucking hard for the parents and especially for the mother.
Imagine being over the moon because you are finally pregnant after years of trying, of doubting yourself and your worth as a woman. You happily go to the Doctor just to learn that your child has severe disabilities and will most likely die within a few months after birth.
Your world implodes, your heart is shattered in so many tiny pieces that you know it can never be put together again. You curse god. Why does this happen to you?
Now you are confronted with an unfathomable decision. Do you have an abortion and give up the tiny chance that the child will live? Or do you live through the excrutiating eternity of the pregancy, ripped of any joy, while you break apart every single time someone congratulates you when they see your belly, only to watch your baby suffer horribly for months before it eventually dies?
You don’t know whats right or wrong any more. Who are you to interfere with God’s plan? But what kind of fucked up plan and fucked up God is this? You finally decide to spare your baby the suffering. You decide to have an abortion. You don‘t know if you will have the strength to do it. You grab your phone to cancel the appointment a million times. A million times you just sit there, with the phone in your hand, crying, unable to actually make the call.
Then the big day has come, all too sudden after an eternity of torment. You drag yourself to the abortion clinic. There’s a hostile crowd jumping at you, hurling the most vile insults and accusations. You are a murderer, a monster, you deserve to burn in hell for eternity. You pave your way through yelling, hate-filled grimaces. There’s that part of you that wants you to be pulled into the crowd, to be torn apart and devoured like the monster that you are.
So no, I don‘t think that it should be allowed to protest outside abortion clinics. There are some things that so inhumane and vile that they cannot be tolerated.
I would say an occasional protest as freedom of expression should be allowed with a permit (so patients can avoid this disturbance). But day in day out picketing should be banned.
Because their viewpoint is that OTHERS should never have access to abortion. Pro choice means you can make that choice for yourself. Worth noting as well that many Pro-Birth politicians don't think it applies to themselves, their family, and their mistresses. It's a Hypocrite stance and is not valid.
Plus, the stance of "pro-life but only for myself" is the definition of pro-choice, and not who we should really consider a part of the pro-birth crowd. If you're pro-choice but you defend the pro-birth crowd, you aren't supporting the right of preference -- you're supporting those who want to end choice entirely.
Something something "tolerance of intolerance leads to more intolerance" etc.
Right, but there is a legitimate argument to be made that that decision affects another being. Just like I'm not free to make my own choice to assault another person, it can be reasonably argued that we should not allow people to prevent a future life.
This is not my opinion, but its a pretty reasonable argument. Branding all pro life people as hypocrites is pretty childish. To say it's invalid is intolerant
That says it all. Many people are atheist or agnostic and religion doesn't even come into the equation. Abortion is a moral and ethical issue. Everyone's morals and ethics are different, that doesn't make them wrong. I'm of the opinion do whatever you want as long as it doesn't negatively affect me or my environment. Do you have one for vegans?
No I don't. This was posted in someone's front window. I'm with you or the most part. This whole country could get along so much better if people minded their own business. I don't really care what a person does or with whom. My biggest concern is that they own their actions and decisions. I don't think it's anyone's place to interfere.
Shocking that the people that still base their entire lives on some badly plagiarized bronze age fairy tales are extremely quick to resort to violence to get their way...
Tucker Carlson fully believes in killing people who do abortions. Well he doesn't actually believe that but he encourages his illiterate flock to do it then laughs at them after
Was asked to pretend to be a female friend’s boyfriend. Due to an assault. On that day there were no protestors. Luckily. I honestly don’t know what my reaction would’ve been if we came across these people. You have to be one xxxxed up individual to take time out of your to do this to people. And when think of the things they could be taking action against……
Then, I think about I was just a friend. Not the person facing a hellish decision to have to make. And then I think of the women out there they don’t have a support network around them and facing these…….think I’ll stop here. Even picturing it…….arrrggghhh.
Considering the topic….thought I’d keep it tidy. Btw, do I have to swear on the web? I’m only 46, do I need my parent permission to not swear?
Mmmm. Ps middle aged Aussie men are really known for their delicate use of English language. I think I can decide for myself mate.
(not saying it makes it right, quite the opposite. Just stating that it's not very different. Those who are in favour of death as legal punishment are usually also against terminating fetuses... Quite the hypocrisy)
Yeah everyone applauding this without realizing the reason we even have to HAVE separate clinics is because the Catholic hospital group throughout Perth refuses to do them on site. Also, there are still legal hoops to jump through. It's progress but definitely more to go - moved here from SoCal and it's one aspect about the move that makes me uncomfortable. As a woman, I don't like feeling like access to abortion might be restricted.
Oh lol I'm guessing that is the state of California in the U.S.A? I was thinking you meant a town in Australia and I was deeply confused because "SoCal" doesn't sound like a place name in Australia, most of our towns are named after Aboriginal names/places.
While agreeing with 100%, it's a start and gets the foot in the door for the rest of the world. I'm not happy with stagnation of progress, so this is still a big win. For reference, I live in the states and we have things like Alabama here.
As a Lithuanian its really interesting to read these mind blowing stories of crazy people intimidating, scaring and in the past even killing medical staff and patients of women health clinics in the US. I don't think we have the law like the Australians, but i don't think there is a necessity for such law here, because there's literally no protesters at women health clinics were abortions conducted, in my whole life i never even saw or heard about crazy people protesting near women health clinics. In generally we don't even have a protesters who protest against abortions, all political parties since 90s support it. Even when we were occupied by Soviet Union there was easy access to abortions. Also I have family members who live all across Europe like Norway and even they never ever saw or heard about such bizzare incidents that happen in US or Australia that requires such law.
I agree its bizarre, but it’s a very intentionally fanned issue. Many pastors and Republican politicians knowingly make the situation worse to rile up their bases.
And yes, it has led to actual violence including the 1996 Olympic Park bombings, the 2009 assassination of abortion doctor George Tiller, and the 2015 mass shooting at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs.
Oh wow that's seriously really depressing... I heard that in US there are a lot of issues unnecessarily politicized especially by the conservatives like just mentioned abortion, gun laws, health care and even masks, this would be unimaginable here in Lithuania, how's this so far gone in America ?
I mean it’s bizarre as an Australian that anyone would stand outside an abortion clinic. Even most conservative Catholics wouldn’t actually harass people. I think it’s just the same kind of nuts who stand outside the town hall and scream that everyone is going to hell. I don’t know anyone who’s against abortion, some wouldn’t choose to have one, but nobody wants to ban them.
That's because in sane parts of the world abortion is not an issue. Hell, it wasn't an issue in the US either until Republicans realized they could turn it into one. Now no matter how hideous things they do, they automatically gain the votes of these single issue zealot voters who have long since lost their fucking marbles.
Yeah those people turn criminal harassment into a pastime...
I mean how would they feel if people showed up and treated them the way they treat others when they're tryna go to church? They'd be furious and demanding prison time for the whole crowd.
They are still absolutely free to voice their opinions at the office of their member of parliament, at City Hall, at the beach or a shopping centre or in front of schools (a favourite tactic of anti-abortionists here in Canada). The only place they can't "protest" is in front of medical clinics.
The purpose of this law is to prevent them from harassing women seeking medical care, because the rights of the protesters must not be allowed to outweigh the rights of the people accessing the clinics.
They not being forbidden to protest, they can protest in front of the halls of government, whom are the people that will make legal decisions on these sorts of topics.
If they found out someone is not a trans with scientific-methods - that's their obligation to inform. I suppose.
As not every trans people are trans, just like not every non-trans are non-trans. I guess.
I know nothing about such clinics, but I know they shouldn't be able to "convince" if it's just "their opinion". There should be some law regulation for psychoterapeuts (and there probably are).
What value do protestors get from harassing the people trying to access a service. The people trying to use that service typically have no capability to make the changes you want. Sounds like these protesters just want a day off work to fuck around, achieve nothing, and harass people.
They can protest outside the offices of their local member, then. Are you saying they should be allowed to protest outside a dentist or some other important medical facility? The rest of the world is trying to get on with its important business. These no-lifes can go have their tantrum someplace else, the fucking idiots.
Are you saying they should be allowed to protest outside a dentist or some other important medical facility?
Yes. Why the fuck should you be not allowed to protest in front of a dentist?? As long as you are not obstructing or preventing access to the place, which we all agree should be illegal, then the protest itself should be legal.
Because it's a fucking dentist. How the hell does this need explaining? These morons are wholly obstructing and preventing access, so now they get their toys taken away. It's a pretty fair shake.
Oh get fucked, hahaha. “I” don’t see it as such. They do. They have shown that with their actions. It’s almost like the right to protest should be treated with more respect by the people “protesting”.
The laws are obviously far more complex than just "you can run over protestors." The actual text of the laws (or at least the Oklahoma law) specify that it only applies to people where a.) they did not enter the area with the knowledge or intent to confront protestors, b.) the protest has already turned violent, c.) there are no safe avenues of exit, and d.) a reasonable person would fear for life & limb if they didn't leave immediately.
It's only applicable in narrow cases, i.e., if someone on the verge of ending up like Reginald Denny ran over someone trying to pull them out of their car.
Would you be ok with restricting all protests from what they want to protest? Surely the point of a protest is to cause disruption? What would you say about a law that didn't allow protests within 150m of pharmaceutical companies (e.g. like the Oxycodone shit)? What about not allowing it within 150m of politicians since it'd disrupt their life? 150m away from politics events so that people can protest the RNC/DNC, but as long as they're out of sight?
Disrupt the people who can actually change shit. Don't harass or intimidate civilians. All of this absolutely disingenuous discussion around protest really pisses me off.
I’ve never seen so many shit takes in such a short space of time. Protest any issue you like - flat earth for all I care - but you know damned well, and don’t act like you don’t, that the events that rules like this are targeting are not legit. You don’t go after people who are getting their procedure done, you go after the people in charge, and when things don’t go your way, suck it up. I’m happy to live by those rules myself so at least do me the courtesy of not acting like I’m a hypocrite.
not really what I said though, is it. If you actually care about an issue, you go and make noise where the people who can actually effect change can hear you - you don't harass people who are just minding their own business and trying to do their jobs.
And often MLK ended up in jail for protesting racist segeration laws and eating at whites only counters. If you believe so much in the issue commit civil disobedience, face the consequences and write inspirational, epoch changing letters from jail as MLK did. Disabled people went to jail for blocking busses. The right to harass others is not the same as the right to protest.
You are literally saying that protests should only occur out of sight
Nothing about this law prevents anti-abortion protest in public spaces. They can make their voices heard almost everywhere, inlcuding to their members of Parliament. There is only a very narrow zone around abortion clinics in which they can't, so that they are prevented from harassing women seeking medical care.
We've had a law like this in Ontario for a few years; I assure you the anti-abortionists are out in full force everywhere else. They especially like to target high schools.
What are you missing here? They -are- blocking free access to a place. It’s happening whether you want to accept it or not.
And don’t be a dick about city hall, the point is if you’re doing a protest, protest at the people who can do whatever it is you think they should be doing. It’s the difference between firebombing a car yard or having your event outside the office of the person in charge of whatever issue it is you think needs attention.
Then you will be glad to hear the right to protest is intact. The right to harass, intimidate and psychologically torment vulnerable patients seeking critical medical care is what the issue is.
You're not protesting shit if you scream outside of the abortion clinic. Go scream outside whatever legislative body you want to appeal to. Screaming at an abortion clinic is pure harassment, which I don't believe is legal.
Well, I mean, the term 'liberal' is kind of varied in its meaning. I'm Australian, and 'liberal' is literally what the conservative, incumbent government is called (the Liberal Party). In this instance, being 'liberal' refers to that party's belief in the reduced power of the government (or, at least, that's what they purportedly want). Less social welfare, more personal responsibility, etc.
I find that, at least online, 'liberal' for the US generally seems to refer to (at least nowadays) people who are for social liberality. These people would not typically be seen as conservative, but progressive. Under this line of thinking, you have the power to express yourself and represent yourself in whatever manner you want, as long as it doesn't harm others (social issues like the freedom to have an abortion, or be referred to legally as gender non-comformist, come under this banner).
So it depends on who you're referring to. Sorry to play semantics, but the term 'liberal' is multiplicitous in its meaning nowadays haha.
Clearly, you're referring to the US version of the term (obviously, a lot of other places around the world use this version of the term, but the US is a good place to refer to just because of its ubiqitous nature). Even then, this belief in the ability to go to an abortion clinic without being harrassed by protestors seems to align with this version of the term, as protesting against clinics outside clinics restricts people's usage of these facilities (both directly, as some of the anecdotes in this thread indicate, about protestors misleading prospective patients intentionally by presenting themselves as authorities figures via language and uniform, and additionally, somewhat indirectly, by using the threat of confrontation to ward off people who want to avoid that kind of hostility). Given abortion clinics offer health services that are often necessary for the mothers, by restricting people's use of that facility, you are impeding on their freedom to seek out necessary aid.
I agree with some of the other commenters, in that preventing them from protesting immediately outside is the right course of action. If they wish to protest, they should be protesting the legality of these services at their local member's office, or at federal or state parliament. That way, people can still access healthcare efficiently, and people can still express their values and beliefs.
"Liberal" means exactly what the definition is. The Australian Liberal party has had that name since the 40s when they were actually trying to be liberal (for the time) since then they have kept the name but completely abolished any sense of being liberal and are instead trying to go backwards.
Yep - I believe you can't protest outside hospitals and certain levels of healthcare providers. Protests and grieving or large levels of people in high stress situations nos a bad idea.
One clinic here was delayed in getting their "standings" to make protests illegal, but they also provided a lot of safespace and treatment for.vulnerable homeless population - who it turns out made the protesters very uncomfortable haha
Actually, it doesn’t remove the right to protest. It just creates a 150 metre radius around the clinic.
You're literally just playing semantics to get around the point.
"It's not removing literally all of their rights to protest, it's just removing their right to protest in these areas. So you can't say it's restricting their right to protest"
So it's okay to protest outside abortion clinics as long as you request a permit first, and the government has to give one to you otherwise they're infringing on your right to a peaceful protest, right?
Isn't the entire point of protests to cause disruption? Would you think its ok to have a similar rule requiring 150m radius outside of political events? Or other similar distance based laws that make it so you can't actually impact what you're protesting?
This is literally how the free speech zones worked. You weren't allowed to protest within a certain area, but you were more than welcome to fuck off and protest somewhere unrelated to what you were protesting. You think the free speech zones stopped people from protesting a local politician? They only limited very specific areas, but you were still welcome to protest in over 99.9% of the country
Your best position here is to just say Bush wasn't entirely on the wrong track
But I bet you have nooooooo problem protesting outside of a gun store, or a church, or a conservative school
I very much would, why are you protesting the stores, school or church? Unless the store, school or church specifically are casing the issue then you’re just being a moron.
Protest in public to gain a following or the ones who make the laws lol
Following a women and screaming “you’re a filthy fucking cunt” as a group is not protesting anything it’s 100% harassment and intimidation.
This law makes it so you can’t harass or intimidate women, you can still “protest” just in areas you should be. If people were being civil and just standing there with a sign saying “would you like to discuss why abortion might not be a good idea” we wouldn’t have any issue but clearly people can’t be respectful.
There are certain religious groups, who believe surgical treatment is a sin, or something.
Imagine they "protesting" near specialized places, where people go for surgery.
Shouting at people, who are here to cut hernia, that they will get to hell, or something.
Scaring away people who NEED healing, but too socially insecure.
Doing it for so long and so annoyingly, that there are country-wide laws against them now.
If people are doing things that are legal, yes I have a problem with people harrassing them as they go about those tasks, be it buying guns, going to church, going to school, or going to a medical clinic.
The target of protest should be the government with the aim to change laws, not citizens doing perfectly legal things.
I can only speak for myself but I would absolutely have qualms about people harassing individuals trying to go into their church. Pretty sure law enforcement would as well. Also, why are you assuming that anyone who thinks women should be able to access abortions automatically are against guns, churches, and whatever a "conservative school" is?
The key point here is whether there is targetted harrassment or intimidation towards the customers who are using the facility legally. In the case of abortion there very clearly is, as history has shown. If protesters start harrassing the chicken shop customers then absolutely police come and break up the protest, that already happens and is within the law.
They don't call themselves liberals though. The Liberal party in Australia is our conservative party (which is why when talking to Americans I call them the LNP because it's confusing to them) because they're economic neoliberals.
Lol you don't understand anything about private property do you? Also like the other person said, feel free to protest, you just can't verbally harass women for doing something they have a right to do as they're entering a building. You can still protest from far away, people aren't allowed to just walk into the White House and protest either, or even on the front lawn.
Deal with it snowflake lol, sometimes people don't wanna hear your shit and that's their right on their property. Unless you're saying it's cool for me to come stand on your property with signs and call you a murderer. If you're alright with that then nevermind.
lolwut? Protesting other people's medical choices is bullshit. It violates basic rights.
Go protest in front of the legislature, protesting regular people just going to the doctor is straight up harassment.
If you stood outside and ER protesting their healing of hurt people, you'd be quickly arrested, since there isn't any protest there, just harassment.
It would also be no different than protesting black people in front of a public school.
Protesting governmental action is different from harassing individuals at a medical facility. I believe you're smart enough to understand the difference.
Yes? I don't think screaming in people's faces is a very effective form of protest, and nobody's taking their ability to protest away, just their ability to indiscriminately yell at people seeking family planning help
This is such a stupid take (even if it's a joke). They are obviously talking about the right to protest specifically outside an abortion clinic.
Statements like this is why politics, nearly everywhere is munted. Jumping straight to extreme positions, shutting down all discussion and terminating any nuance.
No. Just limiting the right to harass and bully people.
Protest all you want - but you don't have the right to force other people (namely the clinic patients) to listen to you. Go yell at the trees in the park or something.
Would you be ok with applying that to all protests? E.g. what about people protesting pharma companies that pushed drugs like oxycodone, would you say it's ok making a 150m rule around them? What about a 150m rule around politicians? Or around political events like the RNC, would you say you don't have a right to force bigots to listen to you, so they should be out of sight yelling at trees in the park?
Yes. You can protest in highly-visible spots. But what you CANNOT do (should not be able to do) is position yourself so that you are yelling abuse at someone that HAS to walk through the abuse when they didn't sign up for that.
A politician signed up to hear people's complaints. That's quite literally what their job is (supposed to be) - finding out what people want done, then doing it. The bigots are expressing their opinions by attending an event - they signed up for having people express them back. The pharma companies get protested in front of buildings - but the CEOs & employees can use different entrances so they're not forced to listen to the protestors at all. (Yes, if ALL entrances were blockaded in such a way as they do abortion clinics, I would be against that, too.)
A woman entering a clinic only signed up for receiving medical care.
Police officers that stand in line HAVE to be there. There have been many videos of people yelling, spitting on and throwing things in these officers faces all the time.
The people walking down the street? The grandmas crossing roads? The people stuck in traffic? The businesses that get brigaded... Are you really trying to say they were asking for it?
I'm sure the people at the CNN building had to be there for work. Them "protesting" outside and breaking the windows fits 'harass and bully' in my books (and a lot more).
Obviously if you try to stop someone from accessing said healthcare facility it's no longer a peaceful or legal protest. But once you let them say you can't protest outside an abortion clinic they have grounds to say you can't protest outside a corporation, police station, city hall, or congress.
Slippery slope fallacy mate. “Protesting” outside abortion clinics, aka harassing women and clinic staff all day every day, is not a legitimate protest. It’s targeted harassment. And it interrupts the staffs work constantly. That’s a safety issue and a labour issue. Has nothing to do with legitimate protests, which aren’t affected at all
Or if your elected representatives want to... you vote them out.
In any case, there is a recognised right to political communication in Australia enforced by the courts, but the Australian High Court recognises that that right can have limitations provided those limitations are no more than necessary to achieve some other necessary goal (like preventing the harrassment, abuse, and compounding of harm to patients and vulnerable women seeking medical treatment)
Are you being deliberately obtuse? This isn't "protest." This is deliberate and personal cruelty towards women in distress. Like most things so-called conservatives do, it's an excuse to practice cruelties thinly veiled as half-assed principles. If you want to protest abortion, protest at city hall or a state capitol.
Good. It must be awful for woman having to go through having an abortion with protesters outside. I’d imagine it would feel intimidating and intrusive. I’m happy that protesting has been banned and feel it should be banned world-wide.
My mum had an unexpected but much wanted pregnancy when she was in her mid 40s. She had an IUS at the time, so between that, her maternal age, her own disability, and the fact both her previous children had been born with physical disabilities, it was considered a high risk pregnancy.
When she was barely 14 weeks, she developed DVT and PE, and was told in no uncertain terms that if she didn't terminate the pregnancy soon, there would be no third baby, and her two other children would no longer have a mother either.
It's an easy choice, but still an incredibly hard choice to be forced to make when you are someone who wants the baby.
She was admitted to hospital for the procedure because of her unstable health status, and the plan was to keep her there for several weeks to treat the PE.
When recovering in the general ward after PACU, she was sharing a room with a woman who upon finding out my mum had been admitted for a termination of pregnancy, decided to accuse my mother of being a murderer, would spend every waking moment telling my mum she should have put the baby up for adoption, that mum was trying to take "the easy way out" and loudly pray in tongues to try and save my mum's soul... while my mum was trying to sleep, until eventually the hospital was able to arrange a private room in the pulmonary ward.
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u/CaravelClerihew 15d ago
Just for context, Western Australia is the last state/territory to make it illegal. So, it's now illegal throughout Australia to protest outside abortion clinics, not just in WA.