From the stats I can find, such as on Pew, only 3% of people who advocate for abortion bans do not believe in god, and only 5% do not consider religion of any import in their lives.
So sure, you can say that not all anti-choice advocates are religious and you'd be right. But it is disingenious to suggest that it is not the primary factor in whether someone is anti-choice or not.
Even though most prolifers are religious, they're not prolife because they're religious because most of them have secular arguments that have nothing to do with religion. The correlation while there, is irrelavent.
That's like saying that since most people who play a specific video game are male, being a male is the main factor why people play that video game.
Isn’t that how the law works though? We limit people’s freedom to do what we deem immoral? Isn’t that how murder works? I’m not free to kill because we think that killing is wrong.
Whether you think abortion is wrong is the debate, not whether we should force choices onto because because if you disagree with that, you’re basically an anarchist.
Sure, but we don't pass laws making necessary medical treatments illegal just because some religious nutjobs think it will jeopardize their place in their fantasy afterlife. They can choose not to undergo the medical treatment all they want, but forcing others not to is the problem.
I don’t think all abortions are a medical necessity and to refer to them all as such is dishonest. Many of them are for convenience.
Also, not all prolifers are religious. I know a few people who are against medically unnecessary abortions who aren’t religious. The idea that prolife is a purely religious stance is an attempt to blanket condemn the position without much effort. It also only works against people who use their religion as justification, which many people (even religious) don’t do.
Look, to say that there are pro-lifers who are not religious is disingenuous. There may be a handful of non-religious ethicists who are academics who hold these positions, but realistically any ethicist worth their salt knows that ethics is about moral relativism.
Using this as a “we’re all reasonable” or “not all unreasonable” argument does not prove a point. People want to promulgate pro-life because they are prideful and believe that they know more than other people.
Even if they don’t use religious arguments , their underlying motivation is religion. They are entitled to believe a single called zygote is a baby made in the image of God . They don’t get to force those beliefs in a majority non religious country , which Australia is
I’m pretty sure most people are not advocating for a complete ban on abortion. Most people are okay if the woman would die and the fetus was aborted within the first term. So again, you’re attacking a position that most prolifers are not interested in.
I see that you’re unwilling to defend your position when someone actually challenges it, so I’ll leave you to it. Lol. Have fun!
What choices are okay to force on others is also a debate. We tend to not do that as a society except for extreme circumstances, and death is not always a compelling enough argument for violating bodily autonomy. So no, you aren’t an anarchist for disagreeing with that.
In what other case do we make common, necessary medical treatments illegal?
Jehova's Witnesses don't accept blood transfusions for religious reasons. They don't go around lobbying to make them illegal for everyone. Going completely against stereotypes, they keep to themselves about it.
Blood transfusions don’t eliminate the life of a potential child. If you can’t see why people are at least CONCERNED about abortions, you lack empathy for others. I’m not religious at all and I tow the line, but I definitely veer toward being anti abortion, because it’s the loss of a life. Be a human.
If you have two kidneys and haven’t donated one to a person on the waiting, then you’re enabling loss of life too. Be a human and give it up, even if there’s a chance you might die by doing so.
Not the same because you haven’t agreed to or began the process of doing so, then during surgery decided not to….. so because you would be under anesthesia at that time, this scenario doesn’t fit and you sound like an idiot. Consider your argument before you make one next time.
The opinion of being against abortion is to be respected. However Protesting outside clinics is repulsive. People deserve privacy in difficult situations. Threatening and using violence is what makes them terrorists.
Yeah, but you're thinking sensitivity matters when in their eyes, you're literally murdering babies. Would you give a shit about sensitivity if LGBT people were being murdered or imprisoned?
Because in most cases, having an abortion is fucking hard for the parents and especially for the mother.
Imagine being over the moon because you are finally pregnant after years of trying, of doubting yourself and your worth as a woman. You happily go to the Doctor just to learn that your child has severe disabilities and will most likely die within a few months after birth.
Your world implodes, your heart is shattered in so many tiny pieces that you know it can never be put together again. You curse god. Why does this happen to you?
Now you are confronted with an unfathomable decision. Do you have an abortion and give up the tiny chance that the child will live? Or do you live through the excrutiating eternity of the pregancy, ripped of any joy, while you break apart every single time someone congratulates you when they see your belly, only to watch your baby suffer horribly for months before it eventually dies?
You don’t know whats right or wrong any more. Who are you to interfere with God’s plan? But what kind of fucked up plan and fucked up God is this? You finally decide to spare your baby the suffering. You decide to have an abortion. You don‘t know if you will have the strength to do it. You grab your phone to cancel the appointment a million times. A million times you just sit there, with the phone in your hand, crying, unable to actually make the call.
Then the big day has come, all too sudden after an eternity of torment. You drag yourself to the abortion clinic. There’s a hostile crowd jumping at you, hurling the most vile insults and accusations. You are a murderer, a monster, you deserve to burn in hell for eternity. You pave your way through yelling, hate-filled grimaces. There’s that part of you that wants you to be pulled into the crowd, to be torn apart and devoured like the monster that you are.
So no, I don‘t think that it should be allowed to protest outside abortion clinics. There are some things that so inhumane and vile that they cannot be tolerated.
I would say an occasional protest as freedom of expression should be allowed with a permit (so patients can avoid this disturbance). But day in day out picketing should be banned.
Either you're a man or a woman capable of birth that has never been raped
Picture this: You've just been sexually assaulted and find out you're pregnant. Like many women capable of birth may do, uou refuse to birth your rapists kid. So you go to one of these clinics and are greeted by religious terrorists "PrOtEsTiNg" outside of planned parenthood telling you that you're a murdering satanist who will burn in hell for your sins.
Now tell me, how is subjecting a victim of one of the worst crimes that can happen to you, to that type of shit okay?
No one WANTS an abortion. But it is every person who can carry a baby's RIGHT to terminate it if needed. It is NOT, however, anyone's right to make these folks' lives hell or degrade them for their choices.
Because their viewpoint is that OTHERS should never have access to abortion. Pro choice means you can make that choice for yourself. Worth noting as well that many Pro-Birth politicians don't think it applies to themselves, their family, and their mistresses. It's a Hypocrite stance and is not valid.
Plus, the stance of "pro-life but only for myself" is the definition of pro-choice, and not who we should really consider a part of the pro-birth crowd. If you're pro-choice but you defend the pro-birth crowd, you aren't supporting the right of preference -- you're supporting those who want to end choice entirely.
Something something "tolerance of intolerance leads to more intolerance" etc.
Right, but there is a legitimate argument to be made that that decision affects another being. Just like I'm not free to make my own choice to assault another person, it can be reasonably argued that we should not allow people to prevent a future life.
This is not my opinion, but its a pretty reasonable argument. Branding all pro life people as hypocrites is pretty childish. To say it's invalid is intolerant
The only reasonable argument is a correct one. If it is a person, then it might be reasonable to take its rights into account, but as far as we know—it’s not. And nobody who thinks otherwise is being reasonable. Fuck, but it may not even be reasonable to restrict abortions if we decide that we’re killing humans by giving them, because you’ll never overcome the bodily autonomy argument.
It is not intolerant to say that people who believe in a flat earth are wrong. It is not intolerant to say that anti-choices are wrong. It’s not intolerant to disagree with an idea unless that idea is tolerance towards others.
Saying that sometimes bodily autonomy may be restricted is not the same thing as saying it may always be restricted. Likewise, saying that sometimes it's not appropriate to restrict someone's bodily autonomy doesn't mean it's never appropriate to restrict someone's bodily autonomy.
Saying that what's right and wrong depends on the circumstances and not simply only a high-level rule based only on the action itself isn't inconsistency but basic moral philosophy, oh my god.
Would you say it's inconsistent to allow people to kill another person in self-defense but not because someone fucked their wife? No, of course not! Read a book or something.
Slavery is a restriction of bodily autonomy, but we make that illegal except if you've been convicted of a crime. Vaccine mandates are a restriction of bodily autonomy, but they're legal. You don't have to say only unlimited bodily autonomy and no bodily autonomy are the only two options. Because they're not. This is the most basic thing I've ever had to explain to a person, ever.
Hold up, I tried not getting in to this argument… But a lot of it is about when as well. When do you believe a fetus becomes a baby? “As far as we know, it’s not”…. Actually, as far as we know, it is. That thing in there won’t be coming out a leopard, it will be coming out a human being. It’s a literal growing human being.
I’m not religious and I find abortion law very difficult because there is so much gray, but for the majority, I am absolutely anti abortion. That doesn’t make me violent toward anyone, or some bigot. Just concerned about both the humans growing inside women, and the women’s mental health after the fact with how much society downplays the realities of abortion and loss.
It isn’t a human being in the same way an acorn isn’t an oak tree. If you think we know it is a human, you haven’t consulted the scientific literature. It’s very telling you use a pretty flawed stock anti-abortion argument and not any physical evidence.
I’m willing to bet you have no idea what “we” know. You go by what’s intuitive to you.
It does make you a bigot, because you recognize that this is an incredibly difficult subject with huge consequences for women and what may be growing inside them, but you absolutely do not do the research necessary to make an informed opinion on the subject. The only way you can be so lackadaisical towards what you are encouraging to be done to women is to not much care about them.
Towards what I encourage be done to them…. As in, have a baby? You’re absolutely not a worthwhile persona and I hope you can come to term with your narcissism and move away from it. Learn to empathize and care about others you loser.
Abortion is okay if:
-it is medically necessary to abort
-you got raped
Abortion is not okay if:
- you and your sexual partner mutually consented to not wear protection
Aka: if you’re just being irresponsible there’s consequences, if it’s not your fault (you get raped) or if there consequences are severe enough to cause medical concerns abortions is okay. As a tax payer in America I should not have to pay for the mistakes of other people.
Abortion is okay if: -it is medically necessary to abort -you got raped
Abortion is not okay if:
you and your sexual partner mutually consented to not wear protection
So in other words, you are not arguing from a position that abortion takes a life, but rather, childbirth -- with its attendant pain and ano-genital mutilation life time injuries -- should be compulsory on women who dare to fuck for fun.Got it.
As a tax payer in America I should not have to pay for the mistakes of other people.
Well guess what sunshine? This post is about Australia so you can keep your taxes and your attitude about punishing slutty slut sluts.
Fucking without a condom is a risk. Weigh the consequences. Fucking with a condom is also a risk albeit less of it. If you go bungie jumping there’s a risk of the cord snapping right? Everything in life is risk/reward. Make your choices wisely and don’t expect others to bear the consequences with you if you willingly take the risk. Do everything to minimize the risk if you want to, don’t like condoms, there’s other options besides birth control and plan b. Use multiple, there’s always going to be a chance at getting pregnant, is that a risk you’re willing to take?
Not all contraception is reliable to reduce the likelihood of conception so termination of an unwanted pregnancy is a resolution to treat the consequences.
Pro freedom? In a country that kicks in doors when you say mean things about the government. That country has nothing to do with the word freedom, and please don’t confuse being allowed to do something by government with freedom 🤣
Cite my sources? Lmao Google search Australia anti lockdown arrests. All the arrests they made simply for people protesting? They arrested a woman in her own home for sharing protest info online lol They forced people in their homes between 9 am and 5 pm. What about that sounds like freedom to you?
Let me guess, you only discovered the existence of Australia when you read this post?
The fact you just call it "Australia" and not even name the state/territory nor the city is just so typical of you lot. Are you going out of your way to affirm a stereotype or just taking the piss?
Hahahaha Australian police arrested a pregnant woman for spreading protest information online. Arrested her. But go ahead and down vote me you fucking freedom hating retards 🤣
That says it all. Many people are atheist or agnostic and religion doesn't even come into the equation. Abortion is a moral and ethical issue. Everyone's morals and ethics are different, that doesn't make them wrong. I'm of the opinion do whatever you want as long as it doesn't negatively affect me or my environment. Do you have one for vegans?
No I don't. This was posted in someone's front window. I'm with you or the most part. This whole country could get along so much better if people minded their own business. I don't really care what a person does or with whom. My biggest concern is that they own their actions and decisions. I don't think it's anyone's place to interfere.
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u/ChuckleKnuckles 15d ago
People need to start calling them what they are: pro birth. Nothing more.