Whereas here you are talking about communities, which should be visible across the Federation regardless - subject to the standard, complex set of rules (which you are working to lower the barrier for with all your alts pre-subscribing:-).
And to complicate matters further, it sounds like these communities have been missing from that list for many months now already. So this truly might be a unique situation, if that instance has actively removed consent to be listed there? Perhaps they would reconsider offering their consent to listing the communities if asked though?
which at least one person said was removed deliberately so as not to overload them - so presumably by their own consent and likely even request
Presumably being the key word here. It’s not clear based on this comment. It might have been a Lemmyverse decision to remove all of the .ml communities because they disagreed with the instance admins political stances.
Right, I was raising awareness of that specter and suggesting that it would need follow-up research into the history. It looks like that website was announced a year ago but I found nothing (except this OP) about “explorer” & “lemmy.ml” by a quick search in this community or in other communities too. At a guess it would have been discussed offline, i.e. Matrix rather than Lemmy.
Fwiw, it has been 7 days since I told you that it was missing from that list. But yeah, it could have been the changes prior to the official roll-out of that version.
Although, v0.19.4 is one possibility yes, but it is also possible that the instance was missing prior to that as well, if they had asked for it to be due to the incoming flood from the Rexodus? i.e. this is not enough to reject the null hypothesis that both things might be true at the same time.
I do not say this b/c of my bias against them - if hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml are there, then lemmy.ml should likewise not be non-consensually removed either, the issue is whether they asked for it to be removed, or not.
Speaking of, it would be good to place a warning about all 3 of them - people should be free to do as they please, but part of that freedom entails having the knowledge to make a choice. Silence in the face of oppression is not “freedom”, as e.g. Ukranians realize better than any of us today, sadly:-(. Like porn, it is fine for someone to walk in with full knowledge of what lies ahead, it is when it surprises a naive unaware person that it causes problems.
it would be good to place a warning about all 3 of them
Where, and how? Seems tedious to write a satisfying message with “don’t go there for politics, but it’s probably the best place for FOSS content” that wouldn’t confuse new joiners
First, practically speaking, do you run that site or have some ability to modify it? You mention it a lot, but it was a different account that introduced it to the Fediverse (that I could find with my search), so I was not sure if you were merely promoting it or something deeper. Otherwise we are merely discussing theoretical possibilities here but it is up to whoever owns or maintains that site to do whatever they want with it… and they likewise should have a record of having been explicitly asked to remove that instance, if such a request existed. So even if you were to do a feature request or full-on git code contribution to fix it, having some contact with the actual owner/maintainer sounds necessary, to avoid potentially doing something non-consensual on behalf of lemmy.ml, which they have (may have) explicitly asked to be the opposite?
Second, is it the “best place for FOSS content”? I just blocked that entire instance, so I will miss out on all future posts, regardless of whether the community was politically affiliated or not. Ironically it might have been you that convinced me to take that course of action (though I could be misremembering the username, sorry if that is the case, or perhaps you were merely part of a 4/5-way, which does strike a note), with something said months ago about how most of the toxic interactions came from there, after blocking hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml. I was advocating essentially (paraphrase here) that “at least positive conversations can be had on the Fediverse, whereas on Reddit I had to give up on that entirely outside of niche subs, and so far I have not had sufficiently negative encounters with people on lemmy.ml to want to block that instance fully (like those other two), but indeed >90% of the time when I get the most batshit insane replies it is from them; though not always b/c that is something to be expected from any large instance?” Since then, the line got crossed in my mind and I just blocked it and have not looked back. I will miss some interactions, yet I do not care: those that remain will be sufficient, and contain far less hassle. It is like filtering water: yes it will contain less taste, but it will also contain less fecal matter too:-P, and I have gotten to the point where that is what I am looking for, in every community that I visit now, not just the “non-political” ones.
I recognize that my individual user instance block would be irrelevant to this conversation if it were unique or even rare, however it is not. Many others are talking about already having done that as well, and potentially many more will do so in the future, especially as new users arrive and are told (some of them by me:-D, but again I am far from the only one who does this). I feel that I have done my due diligence in that particular respect - I have warned innocent users of lemmy.ml that they will increasingly be locked out of good conversations, as in worse than not seeing them, they will reply to people and never get a response no matter how long they wait, b/c we will not even receive their notifications. And then I waited for days for people’s replies to continue… and then I simply moved on. If they remain there, that is their choice, but I will not remain personally federated with that instance by choice. Furthermore, if a major instance were to defederate with all 3 of the axis powers instances, I would join it and not even be able to view their responses in the first place. Over time I predict that it will become more and more of an echo chamber, where they shout into the void, and ofc have conversations amongst themselves, but in isolation from what is going on in the rest of the world. At least as it pertains to my account, and again I am far from the only one (though I do not know the stats - possibly some instance admin could anonymously count how many instance-blocks to it its users do? lets say the ones who have done some activity on that account in the past week, although you and I both maintain alts and yet I don’t always keep any of mine except my main fully updated in such matters, so even that would be an over-counting as all my older ones, even if I posted something from it, would still not have user-blocked it). Or someone will do a poll at some point.
I hope you continue your efforts to help migrate those communities elsewhere. But the reason I say that is for their sake - whereas for my own sake, I’ve already settled the matter (until I can move to an instance that has a full instance block and do so still more firmly). I am satisfied, and if they want to gate that content to solely users federated with that instance, then that is their choice, but I have made mine. And I see others individually stating that choice for themselves as well. This is happening - the admins & so MANY of the users on that instance have earned a reputation: they FA and so they will, to some degree, by some people, FO. I am so glad that someone (you) will continue warning them, but I am also glad that it is not me:-).
So perhaps that is what the warnings could say? Assuming we had any ability to add such in the first place? Something like “Warning: many users have chosen to block this instance, so an account on this instance will have more restricted interactions with the rest of the Fediverse” - repeated for each of the 3. Possibly as a tooltip, an additional column, a footnote, or separating them into a distinct table altogether, below the main one if someone really wanted to push the issue hard:-P - but the latter seems unnecessarily punitive imho, and I think a footnote+tooltip would do just as well. Surely this list will expand in the future as well - e.g. if a federated Truth Social equivalent instance were to be made, or some other warning needed to be delivered even temporarily (like “Warning, this instance has <70% uptime over the last 3 months, you may in the short-term want to avoid it until it stabilizes”). And no need for any detailed reasons why - different people have different values, and ideas about what is acceptable or not, but just simply stating the consequences of choosing to make an account on it is all that needs to be said to ensure that the recipient has all of the requisite information to make an informed choice? That seems to me to provide maximum freedom - that way both the admins there and users all across the Fediverse including the most vulnerable newest ones can then do however they please. It is a solution that should fully please nobody, least of all those on the most extreme ends, but as a middle-ground compromise seems the least worst that could be done?
Didn’t know! Were there any responses from the .ml admins?
I also noticed that this post is not available on lemmy.ml, apparently they banned the post. Looks like they banned the OP from the instance.
It looks like admins from .ml ban people who write bad things about CCP and .world admins ban people who can write bad things about US imperialism. They both think that they fight trolls and usually it’s the case.
For example, the banned OP wrote something like “Why, to ban criticism about China more actively?” in https://feddit.nl/comment/10140068 (6 days ago, while the post was created 9 month ago!) which is definitely not okay behavior.
For projects, where they have their community presence also speaks to their ideology. Those projects’ communities chose to move off of Reddit, and be on Lemmy; those projects’ communities chose the instance they’re on.
One may plea ignorance in the early days of Lemmy, that they’re misguided by the instance description; but now a year later after all the drama, their decision to remain there will start to influence who will be able to interact with their community.
I have no sympathy for communities that chose to remain on CSAM infested instances that got defederated, and I will have no sympathy for project communities that continues to associate with ideologies by the ml admins.
The communities above are not managed by a project organisation (the only one I know if [email protected]), it’s just that until last week, lemmy.ml was considered the go-to instance for FOSS and Linux.
Network effect is here, I know it first hand as I’ve been busy posting to [email protected] to try to offer people an alternative to the lemmy.ml community.
But I’m not planning to do that with the communities above, and same for the other FOSS communities, because I have other stuff to do
The vast majority of people going to those communities just want a place with enough people to answer their questions on the topic. They are not going to organize a migration, most of them are probably not even aware of the issues with lemmy.ml administration (seems like the post got removed from lemmy.ml: https://lemmy.ml/comment/11606059)
I see where you come from, and I get it to an extend, but the vast majority of people are probably going to keep going to those communities without any change.
If someone wants to organize a migration of those above communities (the thread I linked above can be a starting point), feel free, but I wouldn’t count on it. And without an active migration, those communities will stay the reference for those topics.
There is some drama, but at the same time some only exist there (see this post: https://lemmy.world/post/16235541)
For instance
So I wouldn’t say it’s such a good idea to not show them at all.
This is a bit of a tangent though - OP was talking about instances, which at least one person said was removed deliberately so as not to overload them - so presumably by their own consent and likely even request?
Whereas here you are talking about communities, which should be visible across the Federation regardless - subject to the standard, complex set of rules (which you are working to lower the barrier for with all your alts pre-subscribing:-).
And to complicate matters further, it sounds like these communities have been missing from that list for many months now already. So this truly might be a unique situation, if that instance has actively removed consent to be listed there? Perhaps they would reconsider offering their consent to listing the communities if asked though?
Presumably being the key word here. It’s not clear based on this comment. It might have been a Lemmyverse decision to remove all of the .ml communities because they disagreed with the instance admins political stances.
Right, I was raising awareness of that specter and suggesting that it would need follow-up research into the history. It looks like that website was announced a year ago but I found nothing (except this OP) about “explorer” & “lemmy.ml” by a quick search in this community or in other communities too. At a guess it would have been discussed offline, i.e. Matrix rather than Lemmy.
Look at this comment: https://feddit.nl/comment/10290637
It’s affecting every 0.19.4 instance, not only lemmy.ml
Fwiw, it has been 7 days since I told you that it was missing from that list. But yeah, it could have been the changes prior to the official roll-out of that version.
Although, v0.19.4 is one possibility yes, but it is also possible that the instance was missing prior to that as well, if they had asked for it to be due to the incoming flood from the Rexodus? i.e. this is not enough to reject the null hypothesis that both things might be true at the same time.
I do not say this b/c of my bias against them - if hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml are there, then lemmy.ml should likewise not be non-consensually removed either, the issue is whether they asked for it to be removed, or not.
Speaking of, it would be good to place a warning about all 3 of them - people should be free to do as they please, but part of that freedom entails having the knowledge to make a choice. Silence in the face of oppression is not “freedom”, as e.g. Ukranians realize better than any of us today, sadly:-(. Like porn, it is fine for someone to walk in with full knowledge of what lies ahead, it is when it surprises a naive unaware person that it causes problems.
Lemmy.ml deployed 0.19.4 around 13 days ago (local communities were made available in that release): https://lemmy.ml/post/16252832
Where, and how? Seems tedious to write a satisfying message with “don’t go there for politics, but it’s probably the best place for FOSS content” that wouldn’t confuse new joiners
First, practically speaking, do you run that site or have some ability to modify it? You mention it a lot, but it was a different account that introduced it to the Fediverse (that I could find with my search), so I was not sure if you were merely promoting it or something deeper. Otherwise we are merely discussing theoretical possibilities here but it is up to whoever owns or maintains that site to do whatever they want with it… and they likewise should have a record of having been explicitly asked to remove that instance, if such a request existed. So even if you were to do a feature request or full-on git code contribution to fix it, having some contact with the actual owner/maintainer sounds necessary, to avoid potentially doing something non-consensual on behalf of lemmy.ml, which they have (may have) explicitly asked to be the opposite?
Second, is it the “best place for FOSS content”? I just blocked that entire instance, so I will miss out on all future posts, regardless of whether the community was politically affiliated or not. Ironically it might have been you that convinced me to take that course of action (though I could be misremembering the username, sorry if that is the case, or perhaps you were merely part of a 4/5-way, which does strike a note), with something said months ago about how most of the toxic interactions came from there, after blocking hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml. I was advocating essentially (paraphrase here) that “at least positive conversations can be had on the Fediverse, whereas on Reddit I had to give up on that entirely outside of niche subs, and so far I have not had sufficiently negative encounters with people on lemmy.ml to want to block that instance fully (like those other two), but indeed >90% of the time when I get the most batshit insane replies it is from them; though not always b/c that is something to be expected from any large instance?” Since then, the line got crossed in my mind and I just blocked it and have not looked back. I will miss some interactions, yet I do not care: those that remain will be sufficient, and contain far less hassle. It is like filtering water: yes it will contain less taste, but it will also contain less fecal matter too:-P, and I have gotten to the point where that is what I am looking for, in every community that I visit now, not just the “non-political” ones.
I recognize that my individual user instance block would be irrelevant to this conversation if it were unique or even rare, however it is not. Many others are talking about already having done that as well, and potentially many more will do so in the future, especially as new users arrive and are told (some of them by me:-D, but again I am far from the only one who does this). I feel that I have done my due diligence in that particular respect - I have warned innocent users of lemmy.ml that they will increasingly be locked out of good conversations, as in worse than not seeing them, they will reply to people and never get a response no matter how long they wait, b/c we will not even receive their notifications. And then I waited for days for people’s replies to continue… and then I simply moved on. If they remain there, that is their choice, but I will not remain personally federated with that instance by choice. Furthermore, if a major instance were to defederate with all 3 of the axis powers instances, I would join it and not even be able to view their responses in the first place. Over time I predict that it will become more and more of an echo chamber, where they shout into the void, and ofc have conversations amongst themselves, but in isolation from what is going on in the rest of the world. At least as it pertains to my account, and again I am far from the only one (though I do not know the stats - possibly some instance admin could anonymously count how many instance-blocks to it its users do? lets say the ones who have done some activity on that account in the past week, although you and I both maintain alts and yet I don’t always keep any of mine except my main fully updated in such matters, so even that would be an over-counting as all my older ones, even if I posted something from it, would still not have user-blocked it). Or someone will do a poll at some point.
I hope you continue your efforts to help migrate those communities elsewhere. But the reason I say that is for their sake - whereas for my own sake, I’ve already settled the matter (until I can move to an instance that has a full instance block and do so still more firmly). I am satisfied, and if they want to gate that content to solely users federated with that instance, then that is their choice, but I have made mine. And I see others individually stating that choice for themselves as well. This is happening - the admins & so MANY of the users on that instance have earned a reputation: they FA and so they will, to some degree, by some people, FO. I am so glad that someone (you) will continue warning them, but I am also glad that it is not me:-).
So perhaps that is what the warnings could say? Assuming we had any ability to add such in the first place? Something like “Warning: many users have chosen to block this instance, so an account on this instance will have more restricted interactions with the rest of the Fediverse” - repeated for each of the 3. Possibly as a tooltip, an additional column, a footnote, or separating them into a distinct table altogether, below the main one if someone really wanted to push the issue hard:-P - but the latter seems unnecessarily punitive imho, and I think a footnote+tooltip would do just as well. Surely this list will expand in the future as well - e.g. if a federated Truth Social equivalent instance were to be made, or some other warning needed to be delivered even temporarily (like “Warning, this instance has <70% uptime over the last 3 months, you may in the short-term want to avoid it until it stabilizes”). And no need for any detailed reasons why - different people have different values, and ideas about what is acceptable or not, but just simply stating the consequences of choosing to make an account on it is all that needs to be said to ensure that the recipient has all of the requisite information to make an informed choice? That seems to me to provide maximum freedom - that way both the admins there and users all across the Fediverse including the most vulnerable newest ones can then do however they please. It is a solution that should fully please nobody, least of all those on the most extreme ends, but as a middle-ground compromise seems the least worst that could be done?
I don’t, which is why I linked to th e Github issues and suggested that someone opened an issue. Nobody did so far, but the 0.19.4 issue impacted another https://github.com/maltfield/awesome-lemmy-instances/issues/46
Those communities should be urged to move away from lemmy.ml.
Feel free to organize the migration
I am one of the victims of the censorship you say doesn’t happen, so I am banned on lemmy.ml for making a comment about the Tiananmen Square massacre.replied to the wrong comment
Where did I say that censorship does not happen?
I’ve been busy posting to [email protected] for the last week following your post.
You don’t need to have an account on lemmy.ml to organize the migration (I did not post there). Organizing the migration means
You didn’t, I got your comment mixed up with what someone else said on another comment chain, and I apologize.
No worries! I was also a bit harsh, I edited my comment.
Didn’t know! Were there any responses from the
.mladmins?I also noticed that this post is not available onLooks like they banned the OP from the instance.lemmy.ml, apparently they banned the post.It looks like admins from
.mlban people who write bad things about CCP and.worldadmins ban people who can write bad things about US imperialism. They both think that they fight trolls and usually it’s the case.For example, the banned OP wrote something like “Why, to ban criticism about China more actively?” in https://feddit.nl/comment/10140068 (6 days ago, while the post was created 9 month ago!) which is definitely not okay behavior.
I criticize US imperialism all the time. Not even a warning let alone a ban. So I don’t think that’s the case.
You are right, I said it wrong.
They mostly ban for being a tankie.
That’s okay, they can move.
They can, but hiding those useful communities from people who are probably just trying to troubleshoot their systems doesn’t seem helpful
For projects, where they have their community presence also speaks to their ideology. Those projects’ communities chose to move off of Reddit, and be on Lemmy; those projects’ communities chose the instance they’re on.
One may plea ignorance in the early days of Lemmy, that they’re misguided by the instance description; but now a year later after all the drama, their decision to remain there will start to influence who will be able to interact with their community.
I have no sympathy for communities that chose to remain on CSAM infested instances that got defederated, and I will have no sympathy for project communities that continues to associate with ideologies by the ml admins.
The communities above are not managed by a project organisation (the only one I know if [email protected]), it’s just that until last week, lemmy.ml was considered the go-to instance for FOSS and Linux.
Network effect is here, I know it first hand as I’ve been busy posting to [email protected] to try to offer people an alternative to the lemmy.ml community.
But I’m not planning to do that with the communities above, and same for the other FOSS communities, because I have other stuff to do
The vast majority of people going to those communities just want a place with enough people to answer their questions on the topic. They are not going to organize a migration, most of them are probably not even aware of the issues with lemmy.ml administration (seems like the post got removed from lemmy.ml: https://lemmy.ml/comment/11606059)
I see where you come from, and I get it to an extend, but the vast majority of people are probably going to keep going to those communities without any change.
If someone wants to organize a migration of those above communities (the thread I linked above can be a starting point), feel free, but I wouldn’t count on it. And without an active migration, those communities will stay the reference for those topics.
On an interesting note, [email protected] move to [email protected] recently.
I edited my comment. Looks like they banned the user, this is why the post is missing. And it’s kinda unfortunate :(
deleted by creator