- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
You must log in or register to comment.
Is there actually any proof that Hamas has used hospitals? The Al-shifa hospital staff has denied this in every interview and no reporter has shown proof of it being real.
Yeah there’s videos of Hamas guys shooting from hospitals. Including a rocket launcher (which probably killed someone with the back last)! Monsters
The IOF says so, which means it will be accepted uncritically
There were the photographs that showed a crater in the hospital parking lot made by a rocket rather than a jdam. But I don’t think we know if it was from a rocket launch, or an accidental landing after a failure.
Rockets are portable. Even if a rocket was launched from a parking space it’s not evidence that the hospital is a hamas base like the government claimed. That is not sufficient evidence even if it was true and may be a war crime to blow up the hospital as a result.
It’s telling you that Hamas is using the hospital as a launch site. That’s enough to call it an active military target. Do you need pictures of terrorists waving at the camera from hospital windows to believe it?
Good, as it should be. Hamas shouldn’t be using them, but Israel also definitely shouldn’t be bombing them.
What should it do then? Just watch as Hamas launches rockets at their citizens from hospitals and schools?
The ideal solution would be to see why there’s fighting in the first place and work on that (hint: It’s the Israeli occupation of Palestine. And yes, that includes Gaza, as much as Israel would like you to believe otherwise).
hint: It’s the Israeli occupation of Palestine. And yes, that includes Gaza, as much as Israel would like you to believe otherwise
The aggressive settlement politics of Israel in Palestine is sad enough, but would you care to elaborate on the second part? That seems to be a pretty bold claim, considering that Gaza has been militarily occupied by Hamas since the civil war of 2007 and is still de facto not in the control of either Palestine or Israel. I don’t understand how that could be the case if your claim was true.
According to Hamas doctrine Israel does „occupy“ them by simply existing where Hamas would like to create their caliphate (i.e. Jerusalem). So that might be where the confusion is coming from.
No no, take a look at the UN position among others. Gaza is subject to a land, air and sea blockade that gives Israel near-total control over the Gazan economy, alongside ludicrous amounts of surveillance and more. Gazans are also forbidden entry to some parts near the border.
Israel doesn’t have people physically in Gaza most of the time, but with the amount of control Israel has over Gazans Gaza is most definitely under military occupation by Israel. For example, it’s Israel who decides how much food, water, electricity, medicine, etc etc Gazans get every day, and the answer is always “not enough”.
For more details:
Thank you! The English wikipedia article is very different to my own native language’s one (German). I didn’t know that some people call the blockade of Gaza by Israel and Egypt an occupation. These nuances don’t translate well into my language where the word for occupation implies actually occupying something (“boots on the ground”).
The blockade was the consequence of their neighbour being taken over by a terrorist organization. Both Israel and Egypt tried to loosen the blockade multiple times in the last decade. But any relaxation was answered with violence. I don’t know how anyone should or could possibly proceed in this setting. All I know is that I do sympathize with the civilians on both sides that are suffering because of it, even if one side elected literal terrorists as their leaders and the other side elected a vengeful right-winger.
Edit: Removed last paragraph (see below).
These nuances don’t translate well into my language where the word for occupation implies actually occupying something (“boots on the ground”).
That’s the same in English, but the idea is that there’s not much difference between what’s going on in Gaza and having boots on the ground. When whether you can eat for the day or whether your children can get treated for some illness is dependent on someone other government, that dependence is enforced at gunpoint, and the local government having no say in the matter, that’s an occupation.
The blockade was the consequence of their neighbour being taken over by a terrorist organization.
That’s what Israel would like you to think; the blockade started in 2005, before Hamas even won the election.
Just a little nitpick: The article you posted recites the position of Human Rights Watch at the UN Human Rights Council. It is not the position of the UN. Still, thanks for the link and your otherwise helpful response!
Amnesty International, the World Health Organization, Oxfam, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the United Nations, the United Nations General Assembly, the UN Fact Finding Mission to Gaza, international human rights organizations, US government websites, the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and a significant number of legal commentators (Geoffrey Aronson, Meron Benvenisti, Claude Bruderlein, Sari Bashi, Kenneth Mann, Shane Darcy, John Reynolds, Yoram Dinstein, John Dugard, Marc S. Kaliser, Mustafa Mari, and Iain Scobbie) maintain that Israel’s extensive direct external control over Gaza, and indirect control over the lives of its internal population mean that Gaza remained occupied.
You realize Hamas doesn’t want peace or a better Palestine right? They want the absolute extermination of Jews globally
No, ideally it’d shoot down the rockets. Or potentially they might need to send in soldiers who would be able to adequately discriminate between civilians and militants. That would cause more Israeli casualties, but likely less casualties overall than less discriminate bombing.
Human Rights Watch found no evidence that the civilian victims were used by Palestinian fighters as human shields or were shot in the crossfire between opposing forces. Source
Unless they’ve changed tactics, Israel is lying.
Nice selective context there, removing the first part of the sentence:
In the killings documented in this report, Human Rights Watch found no evidence that the victims were used by Palestinian fighters as human shields or were shot in the crossfire between opposing forces.
So according to the HRW investigation of 11 killings in 2008-2009 the killings weren’t justified by the claims of human shields.
And yet you have things like the UN in 2014 condemning the placement of rockets on site in one of its schools in the region for the second time:
So maybe you mischaracterizing the HRW conclusion and actively ignoring other evidence in the process is the real lying here?
Edit: Also, just for source consistency, we have this 2012 report from HRW:
Human Rights Watch research in Gaza found that armed groups repeatedly fired rockets from densely populated areas, near homes, businesses, and a hotel, unnecessarily placing civilians in the vicinity at grave risk from Israeli counter-fire.
Are you accusing Human Rights Watch of lying? Because that’s who I quoted. Amnesty International also found no evidence to corroborate the accusations of “human shields.” In the paragraph below from this source.
Placement of rockets does not qualify as a human shield, per Amnesty International. And while we’re ignoring other evidence, should we consider Israel’s use of “human shields”.
I like this game. I have the truth on my side, so I will always win.
We get it, you love selective quoting. Give it a rest already.
Should I just make shit up like everyone else?
You could. It’s not any different than the shit you posted. You can even make a video injured and dead civilians like the Hamas production crew.
My shit is sourced, what’s your excuse?
Your selective quoting is the issue. Are you saying you’ve just been responding out of spite instead of actually reading the comments you’ve been replying to? Nevermind don’t bother answering that.
The prohibition of using human shields in the Geneva Conventions, Additional Protocol I and the Statute of the International Criminal Court are couched in terms of using the presence (or movements) of civilians or other protected persons to render certain points or areas (or military forces) immune from military operations. […]
It can be concluded that the use of human shields requires an intentional co-location of military objectives and civilians or persons hors de combat with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives.
Now, while the above definition would include launching missiles near civilian infrastructure to dissuade retaliation, you are correct that the typical reference to the use of human shields is specifically around hostage taking - which is additionally defined as a war crime in its own right.
So if you want to claim that Hamas doesn’t take hostages or that they did but then didn’t colocate hostages near military operations, then potentially we could have a conversation about the degree to which they met the textbook definitions of human shields (as was discussed in Amnesty International’s piece calling for the hostages to be released and not located near military operations here).
But the topic in the original article relating to the EU condemnation and much of the current conversation of Hamas using schools or hospitals as “human shields” relates to their colocation of military operations including rockets near civilian infrastructure.
So we’re really splitting hairs here with the semantics relative to the OP article.
Placement of rockets does not qualify as a human shield, per Amnesty International.
Have a source for this specific claim? Because they certainly seem to take a critical stance on the practice.
I have the truth on my side, so I will always win.
The fact that you think there’s a “winning side” to which group in a conflict in the Middle East is or isn’t performing war crimes pretty clearly tells me you aren’t particularly concerned with the topic of truth at all actually.
Have a source for this specific claim?
But they do not necessarily amount to the specific violation of using “human shields” under international humanitarian law, which entails “using the presence (or movements) of civilians or other protected persons to render certain points or areas (or military forces) immune from military operations.”
It’s in the Amnesty International’s pdf, and the image I commented. According to Amnesty International, there is no evidence other than Israeli accusations, that Hamas uses human shields.
The fact that you think there’s a “winning side” to which group in a conflict in the Middle East is or isn’t performing war crimes pretty clearly tells me you aren’t particularly concerned with the topic of truth at all actually.
Well, that’s just your opinion. The fact that I have given you a source for the truth, yet you still refuse to recognize that there is no evidence of Hamas using human shields, shows me you aren’t actually interested in the truth, but fulfilling a confirmation bias you’ve developed.
Again, you are citing only partial and misleading context.
Here’s the full passage from the report:
These included basing fighters within residential areas; urging civilians not to leave their homes after warnings from Israel; using civilian structures for military activity; storing rockets and other weapons in civilian structures and within populated areas; firing rockets from within or in close proximity to civilian buildings; taking cover in civilian buildings after firing; and building tunnels within civilian areas or under civilian structures.
Several of these actions which have been discussed above, such as storing munitions in civilian buildings or launching attacks from the vicinity of civilian buildings, violate the obligation to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians from the effects of attacks. But they do not necessarily amount to the specific violation of using “human shields” under international humanitarian law, which entails “using the presence (or movements) of civilians or other protected persons to render certain points or areas (or military forces) immune from military operations.” The practices most commonly condemned as such have involved actually moving civilians to military objectives in order to shield those objectives from attack. According to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), “the use of human shields requires an intentional co-location of military objectives and civilians or persons hors de combat with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives.”
So they quote from the same guidelines I just cited, pretty much word for word, and were saying that some of the allegations would not have qualified as using human shields based on the ICRC guidelines, such as storing munitions in civilian buildings or launching attacks in the vicinity of civilian buildings.
Because the important part of what’s determined as using human shields is the intentional co-location of the actual humans, not simply the incidental vicinity of civilians.
This does not mean, as you are implying, that launching missiles from within or directly next to an inhabited hospital somehow isn’t considered using human shields by Amnesty International. As the language you left out of “several of these actions” not qualifying as the use of human shields indicates, several of the other actions are considered to be the use of human shields.
And the key guidelines to determine the difference per Amnesty International are the exact same guidelines I previously linked to and quoted.
You’ve clearly crossed the line well into the territory of what’s intentionally a bad faith argument here.
Some nerve to talk about a confirmation bias.
Edit: And again some nerve to talk about there being “no evidence” when the report is littered with things like:
Nevertheless, Amnesty International believes that the report is credible and the claim should be independently investigated, together with other reports and claims that Hamas leaders and security forces used facilities within the hospital for military purposes and interrogations during the hostilities. Amnesty International spoke to a Palestinian journalist who was interrogated by officers from Hamas’ Internal Security in an abandoned section of the hospital during the conflict. Hamas’ Internal Security officials also prevented a fieldworker contracted by Amnesty International from photographing damage to the hospital’s outpatients’ clinic on 28 July, when the fieldworker arrived at the hospital shortly after an explosion which damaged the clinic just before 5pm.
Or
There are credible reports that, in certain cases, Palestinian armed groups launched rockets or mortars from within civilian facilities or compounds, including schools, at least one hospital and a Greek Orthodox church in Gaza City. In at least two cases, accounts indicate that attacks were launched in spite of the fact that displaced Gazan civilians were sheltering in the compounds or in neighbouring buildings.
What is misleading? It clearly states:
But they do not necessarily amount to the specific violation of using “human shields” under international humanitarian law, which entails “using the presence (or movements) of civilians or other protected persons to render certain points or areas (or military forces) immune from military operations.”
If it met the criteria for a “human shield,” that would have been stated. This has nothing to do with bad faith. Hamas does not use human shields, according to Amnesty International. Your argument isn’t with me, it’s with them. Are they operating in bad faith? Barring an independent investigation to prove otherwise, this is what their investigation found.
What’s misleading is that they are only referring to some of the alleged behavior not qualifying, not all of the alleged behavior.
Using an inhabited hospital as a military HQ where you are conducting interrogations and launching missiles from absolutely meets “using the presence of civilians or protected persons to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.”
Firing rockets a block away from an apartment building or storing munitions in an abandoned school doesn’t. And those are the kind of allegations that the report explicitly called out before the part you are quoting (storing munitions in civilian buildings or firing from the vicinity of).
Hamas does not use human shields, according to Amnesty International.
Hahaha, that’s not at all what the report says anywhere. It’s only saying that some of the behavior that was alleged as using human shields doesn’t qualify as that designation.
Literally taking hostages and having them nearby military operations is the textbook definition as I mentioned previously. Are you saying Hamas didn’t do that recently?
Looks like you’ve quoted a biased source making your evidence null. Your accusation is now baseless. Thanks for playing by your own rules.
Read ‘em and weep. Thanks for playing.
Oh goody, thanks for providing a source proving my point. I guess you didn’t actually read it yourself.
Failed Fact Check
None in the Last 5 years
Overall, we rate B’Tselem Left Biased based on story selection and editorial positions that favor the left. We also rate them as mostly factual in reporting due to not always sourcing information.
Israel’s regime of apartheid and occupation is inextricably bound up in human rights violations. B’Tselem strives to end this regime, as that is the only way forward to a future in which human rights, democracy, liberty and equality are ensured to all people, both Palestinian and Israeli, living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.
Glad to know where you stand.
We reviewed the article “Parched: Israel’s Policy of water deprivation in the West Bank.” It discusses the significant water usage disparity between Israelis and Palestinians, attributing it to Israel’s discriminatory policy. The body and the headline use strong, emotionally loaded language, indicating a clear bias against the Israeli government’s policies. The headline suggests that Israel’s water deprivation in the West Bank is deliberate, setting a critical tone towards these policies.
Right from your own link. Just a biased source aimed at hate speech against Israel. Your quote only enforces that.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
BRUSSELS, Nov 12 (Reuters) - The European Union on Sunday condemned Hamas for using “hospitals and civilians as human shields” in Gaza, while also urging Israel to show “maximum restraint” to protect civilians.
Hospitals in the north of the Palestinian enclave are blockaded by Israeli forces and barely able to care for those inside, according to medical staff.
“The EU condemns the use of hospitals and civilians as human shields by Hamas,” European Union foreign policy chief Josep Borrell said in a statement issued on behalf of the 27-nation bloc.
At the same time, he urged Israel to exercise maximum restraint, stressing the obligation under international humanitarian law to protect hospitals, medical supplies and civilians inside hospitals.
“These hostilities are severely impacting hospitals and taking a horrific toll on civilians and medical staff,” Borrell warned.
“In this context, we urge Israel to exercise maximum restraint to ensure the protection of civilians.”
The original article contains 245 words, the summary contains 151 words. Saved 38%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
