Mitch McConell says the quiet part out loud.

Exact full quote from CNN:

“People think, increasingly it appears, that we shouldn’t be doing this. Well, let me start by saying we haven’t lost a single American in this war,” McConnell said. “Most of the money that we spend related to Ukraine is actually spent in the US, replenishing weapons, more modern weapons. So it’s actually employing people here and improving our own military for what may lie ahead.”

cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/4085063

    • Gsus4@feddit.nl
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      1 year ago

      The real question is why does russia want to kill Ukrainians to the last Ukrainian.

      • bitsplease@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Seriously, to listen to hexbears talk about the Ukranian invasion, you’d think that the US talked Ukraine into invading Russia just for fun, and that Russia was simply left with no choice.

        The killing can stop absolutely any day now - all Putin has to do is pull out and pay for his mess, easy peasy

          • bitsplease@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            All you have to do is read through this very thread to find numerous examples of hexbears acting like US liberals are primarily (or second only to Ukraine itself) for the ongoing conflict in Ukraine.

            “Why could Ukraine have just bent over and let Russia take it over??? And why couldn’t the rest of the world just pretend it never happened?? What about 'Murica in the middle east???”

            Sounds pretty familiar to me.

              • VentraSqwal@links.dartboard.social
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                1 year ago

                It’s literally everywhere in this thread. There’s history lessons abound about how bad Ukraine is (with no noticeable criticism of Russia) but no example of what should be done now except to have them give up their sovereignty, their most valuable land, and giving in to Russian’s demands.

                It’s insane to me that these are the same people who would probably say that the US shouldn’t have gone to Iraq or Afghanistan, or that the US shouldn’t invade Cuba. In their view, since the US did a coup there once, I guess all their people deserve to die and lose their sovereignty? How does that make sense?

                “No, we just want the US and Europe to stop giving them weapons to defend themselves!” OK then, then what do you think will happen? More deaths and then a loss of sovereignty obviously. Why is this on them and not on Russia, who simply have the option of stopping their aggression and walking away?

                • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  It’s literally everywhere in this thread. There’s history lessons abound about how bad Ukraine is (with no noticeable criticism of Russia) but no example of what should be done now except to have them give up their sovereignty, their most valuable land, and giving in to Russian’s demands.

                  Show one example, lib.

      • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        Russia repeatedly made peace talk attempts early on. Western powers that actually call those shots rebuffed them. Boris Johnson himself intervened, allegedly.

        The answer to the real question, which is why Russia isn’t unilaterally ending the war, is that its objectives have not been met and/or the status quo is acceptable to them. The former is the exact same as saying why Russia invaded in the first place.

        So why do Western powers want this was to go to the last Ukrainian? NATO military tactics that assume air dominance without the air dominance. Zero expectation of a win, despite the propaganda.

        • FluffyPotato@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Russian conditions to even consider peace were pretty insane, like keeping all the territory their initial conquest managed to claim, removing the baltics and other countries bordering Russia from NATO and forbid Ukraine from joining any alliance. Not only could Ukraine not fulfill all those conditions, they would never accept that.

          • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            You are confused and are including open demands Russia made of the US / NATO prior to the invasion. Russia has not demanded that Ukraine somehow de-NATOify Baltic countries.

            Russia’s initial negotiation demands were things like this:

            • Denazification.
            • Demilitarization.
            • No application to NATO.
            • Independence for Luhansk and Donetsk.
            • Recognition of Crimea as Russian territory.

            These are in no way insane demands given the context of NATO encirclement, the civil war and ethnic cleansing at their doorstep, and the fact that Russia is obviously never giving up Crimea. It is also… the lead-in to negotiations, which Ukraine started balking at around the same time reports came out about Western prevention of Ukraine participating.

            • FluffyPotato@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              Yea, even those were in no way reasonable. Those terms are obviously so Russia can keep conquered territories while removing Ukraine’s ability to defend itself so Russia can take the whole thing in a few years.

              Also there was no ethnic cleansing, no idea where you’re getting that. The baltics joined NATO like 15 years ago and Ukraine’s application was denied so there’s none of that either. And even if both were true those terms mean annexation for Ukraine in the future so in no way acceptable.

              • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                Yea, even those were in no way reasonable.

                They’re very reasonable, especially as a starting point for negotiations.

                1. Ukraine haw a very serious Nazi problem that liberals everywhere recognized right up until it became inconvenient for the war narrative. The Nazi problem is part and parcel of the civil war and failure to abide by Minsk II, as those Nazis were the tip of the spear against ethnic Ruasians in Donbas. Disempowering and jailing Nazi war criminals shouldn’t be controversial.

                2. Russia wants to prevent encirclement and to treat Ukraine as a neutral buffer. Given NATO’s advancements despite the fall of the Soviet Union, this demand is already a half-measure. Ukraine being militarized and used as a Western forward military base is not something Western countries would tolerate if the roles were reversed.

                3. Ukraine isn’t joining NATO anyways, not anytime soon at least. This is a formalization of the aforementioned neutrality.

                4. Independence of Luhansk and Donesk is a demand that says, “you couldn’t abide Minsk II and that leaves this as the only option”. Ukraine and their Western masters had nearly a decade to democratically deal with the breakaway states per their own agreements and chose to instead ramp up a civil war targeting ethnic Russians right on Russia’s border. The failure od the status quo ans the West’s ability to follow their own rules is the proximal issue Russia is reacting to.

                5. Ukraine isn’t getting Crimea back. This is a formalization that would simply amount to normalizing relations in peacetime.

                Those terms are obviously so Russia can keep conquered territories while removing Ukraine’s ability to defend itself so Russia can take the whole thing in a few years.

                Russia could take the whole thing any time they wanted to, lol. They have complete air superiority and a much more powerful arsenal and manpower and tactics. They could do the American thing - the NATO thing - and destroy the rest of the country, targeting Kyiv and civilian infrastructure en masse. Instead, they are choosing a war of attrition that achieves many of their objectives without just rolling over the whole country.

                Neutrality is far safer for Ukrainians and always was. A neutral Ukraine wouldn’t have been invaded by Russia in the first place.

                Also there was no ethnic cleansing, no idea where you’re getting that.

                Then you haven’t been paying attention. Like… at all. It’s been going on since 2013/2014. Please educate yourself on the derussification efforts undertaken by Ukraine targeted at ethnic Russians as well as their ruthless targeting of the Donbas.

                The baltics joined NATO like 15 years ago and Ukraine’s application was denied so there’s none of that either

                None of what?

                And even if both were true those terms mean annexation for Ukraine in the future so in no way acceptable.

                Ukraine is already not a sovereign state, lol. Their political leadership was chosen by Nuland et al behind closed doors as part of Euromaidan. Neutrality would actually be the most sovereign they have any chance of being, toyed with through economic courtship rather than couped and destroyed.

                And again, Russia can annex Ukraine wherever it wants to. Most of it, at least. Poland would probably claim Western Ukraine for itself with various bullshit excuses.

                • FluffyPotato@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago
                  1. It had some nazies prior to about 2020. Not even close to the amount of nazies Russia has though so that’s a meaningless point.
                  2. The countries joining NATO are joining because Russia keeps threatening them. If Russia just wanted a neutral zone they should really stop invading their neighbours. Georgia and Ukraine got invaded and Russia is doing a proxy war in Moldova as well so it seems the only thing causing NATO advancement is Russia.
                  3. Except they also demanded demilitirization. So no allies or self defence.
                  4. One if the points of that agreement to even take effect was that Russia removed their troops from the regions which they never did.
                  5. They may now, depending on how the war goes.

                  No idea what these points are other than just lies. Russia has never had complete air superiority and definitely doesn’t now. Russia is targeting civilians constantly, like the largest mass graves in recent history were found in territories takes back from Russia. As for the equipment and manpower: Like Russia is rolling out museum pieces as tanks I have no idea where you are getting this info from. They do have more manpower since they are conscripting like everyone.

                  None of that was in reference to NATO encirclement. As in it was already encircled 15 years ago and Ukraine wasn’t joining NATO.

                  The political leadership Nuland ‘selected’ was the leader of the opposition party that was going to be in power anyways. That’s like some foreign politician saying they really like the reform party in Estonia to win after they already got the most votes.

                  Can’t find any ethnic cleansing done in Ukraine outside the Tatars by the Soviet union.

                  I’m guessing you mostly watch Russian state media since absolutely no one else thinks Russia could just take Ukraine if they wanted at this point. I’d suggest going to some other sources.

                  • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                    1 year ago

                    It had some nazies prior to about 2020. Not even close to the amount of nazies Russia has though so that’s a meaningless point.

                    UA incorporated Azov Batallion into its official forces aftee the invasion and Right Sector is everywhere. What on earth are you talking about?

                    You’re also losing the plot if you think, “Russia has more Nazis” is relevant to whether this is a reasonable demand in this exact context where the Nazis are the shock troopa against Donbas. Also, Russia has about 5X the population of Ukraine.

                    Forms of nominal hypocrisy just plain don’t matter. This isn’t model UN or debate club, it’s powerful interests and statea vying for position based on their conditions and perspectives on what is driving developments. “Disable your ideological, genocidal forward force against Donbas” is a reasonable starting ask.

                    The countries joining NATO are joining because Russia keeps threatening them. If Russia just wanted a neutral zone they should really stop invading their neighbours. Georgia and Ukraine got invaded and Russia is doing a proxy war in Moldova as well so it seems the only thing causing NATO advancement is Russia.

                    Most of the encirclement happened when Russia was in turmoil, run by an America-installed ruling class. It wasn’t threatening anyone, it was undergoing “shock therapy”, getting dismembered, and losing tens of millions of lives.

                    NATO has never been a defensive org. Article 5 has only been triggered once and it was used to launch a war of aggression (amazing). It has taken many offensive and aggreasive moves, however. This narrative that membera join for safety is absurd: it’s always an escalatiom, a threat, and is done with this knowlesge. The primary thing is actually bestows is official American military bases in your country.

                    And as you can see, it mase Ukrainians much more vulnerable

                    Except they also demanded demilitirization. So no allies or self defence.

                    This doesn’t counter what I said at all.

                    UA isn’t joining NATO anytime soon so there is literally zero material loss for UA in that demand, and as I’ve argued, it actually securea a better position for the Ukrainian people, who are currently stuck acting as proxies for Western plans against Russia - and paying for it (have been since 2014).

                    One if the points of that agreement to even take effect was that Russia removed their troops from the regions which they never did.

                    Because UA continued to shell Donbas. RF and Donbas troops implemented ceasefires repeatedly. RF pulling out unilaterally would have meant giving UA Nazis more kills against folks in Donbas. UA refused to actually work together to end the war there and implement the required referenda.

                    They may now, depending on how the war goes.

                    Delusional.

                    No idea what these points are other than just lies.

                    They’re a simple list of why the demands made by RF are fairly reasonable starting point foe negotoations. I wouldn’t have expected “disempower and get rid of your Nazi commandos” to be something you’d oppose so vehemently and with seemingly made-up stories. I’m confident you were unaware of basically everything I’ve told you given the babytime propaganda stories you’ve been telling me. You’re welcome!

                    Russia has never had complete air superiority and definitely doesn’t now.

                    It absolutely does. UA doesn’t even have airfields an F-16 could use anymore. UA has no real air presence at all, which is why the only UA things you hear about with any evidence are manpads. This is also why UA following NATO doctrine in “the counteroffensive” has been such a completr failure. No air support.

                    Russia is targeting civilians constantly, like the largest mass graves in recent history were found in territories takes back from Russia.

                    Unevidenced propaganda from the UA MoD.

                    As for the equipment and manpower: Like Russia is rolling out museum pieces as tanks I have no idea where you are getting this info from.

                    I know you don’t. You seem to be completely unfamiliar with the Russian military. Not that anyone needs to be, but it’s very uncool to have such strong opinions in something you’ve never investigated. Feel free to educate yourself on its capabilities and what it’s currently using to destroy ammo dumps and take down planes. Or, better, endeavor to feel okay having no opinion yet.

                    They do have more manpower since they are conscripting like everyone.

                    They have more manpower because they have 5X the population.

                    UA is also doing forceful conscription and with much more dramatic coercion.

                    None of that was in reference to NATO encirclement. As in it was already encircled 15 years ago and Ukraine wasn’t joining NATO.

                    ???

                    The political leadership Nuland ‘selected’ was the leader of the opposition party that was going to be in power anyways. That’s like some foreign politician saying they really like the reform party in Estonia to win after they already got the most votes.

                    Sounds like you haven’t heard the recording or you wouldn’t be saying such nonsense.

                    Can’t find any ethnic cleansing done in Ukraine outside the Tatars by the Soviet union.

                    Ah, you have to actually know what ethnic cleansing is and then know what has been happening in UA for the last decade and apply it yourself. The ways in which media outlets and politicians use certain terms is very selective and UA never really got the enemy/target treatment that brown or “bad” countries get.

                    Anyways, you should research better. Here’s a starting point: the National Druzhina.

                    I’m guessing you mostly watch Russian state media since absolutely no one else thinks Russia could just take Ukraine if they wanted at this point. I’d suggest going to some other sources.

                    You’d guess wrong and I think you’re projecting, as you clearly have relies entirely on certain dominant narratives to give you opinions rathee than informing yourself.

    • maegul (he/they)@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      So as someone not close to this war, and as someone who’s always been open to the idea that the worst outcome for the war is for it to be drawn out for a long time, and that the west should think more clearly about what’s really going on here, but also as someone who would probably have picked up a gun and prepared to die if an invading force I didn’t like came for my country … what’s the alternative for the Ukrainians here? Or, do you think Ukraine should be conquered and are fighting an unjust war?

    • socsa@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Russia openly states that their goal is the elimination of Ukrainian identity. Literally genocide. And here you are being smug about it, believing your edgy contrarian sentiment is justified by the evils of a country which is not even party to the war.

      Talk about rent free mind rot.