It’s crazy because I’m pretty sure a lot of them would be considered “undesirables” in the societies they claim to want to live in.

How do you figure?

Yes Egypt also doesn’t exists

Almost 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians alive today were either too young to vote or hadn’t even been born. How long after an election do you assume elected leaders have any real mandate?

Like over a decade ago but they havent held elections since. I’ve seen countering articles saying Hamas has overwhelming support by the people, vs actually Hamas murders anyone who goes against them. So who knows. Fog of war and all that.

Yes, democracy exists until we don’t like it

Unfortunately

Probably, yes.

Yes it’s a humanitarian disaster through and through, and the government response is internationally humiliating for Israel. I felt the same way when the USA started carpet bombing Baghdad after 9/11, although that was far worse and made much less sense.

Are you focusing solely on the casualties involving children? Does that mean any location with children is off-limits for retaliation, providing a shield for adversaries because children are present? This is not a simple game of hide and seek, nor is it your idealistic world where a slap is met with a turned cheek.

It’s a common misconception that supporters of Israel are indifferent to the death of children or any civilian, for that matter, and you seem to be perpetuating this narrative. You choose the most objectionable point about an opponent to make an accusation, and, much like someone obstinately arguing without listening to reason, you consider yourself morally superior and in the right.

What, in your opinion, would be a suitable response to an attack from Hamas? Would peaceful protests, international condemnation, or sanctions suffice?

If you’ve discarded your spine, don’t assume everyone else has done the same. An entity without the ability to react appropriately can only succumb.

Your narrative would hold if it weren’t flawed; it’s an oversimplification. Let’s take your perspective where Hamas is the bees that stung Israel, and now Israel is retaliating against the land harboring the bee nest. (I use ‘bees’ here to distinguish from my earlier wasp analogy).

If your neighbor disliked the bees as much as you and agreed the nest was a problem, then certainly, destroying it with care to avoid collateral damage would be wise. However, the situation changes if your neighbor is a beekeeper who shields the bees in his home to protect them from you. If those bees become aggressive and harm your family, naturally, you’d first request the neighbor to remove the bees. Should they refuse, you’d have every right to seek external help. But what if the authorities do little, leaving you to suffer the stings while your neighbor faces minimal consequences? Rather than passively endure this, you might feel compelled to act independently to prevent future stings and deter the beekeeper from maintaining this threat.

Well then Netanyahu is doing a great job because I heard that Hamas was elected by the palestinians and I never heard about another Palestinian government.

It’s deliberate. If you don’t support Israel’s apartheid of Palestine, you are apparently antisemitic and want Israel destroyed.

Hamas is not helping things. They are bunch of murderous religious nutters. They do want Israel gone. Just like how Israel’s nutters want Palestine gone.

But Hamas are not Palestine anymore than Israel is its religious nutters.

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Well you seem to be implying that the support for Palestinians is support for Hamas.

Because from their perspective someone invaded their land and is now vulnerable to getting kicked off it. The only reason Israel exists is because it’s supported by the US and Europe. Take away that support and Israel goes away.

The intended result for Hamas is for Israel to respond with actions that erode the very support that they depend on for security against invasion from surrounding arab nations that don’t need any new reasons to attack Israel apart from the very existence of Israel in the first place.

Yeah I know Machiavelli, I don’t remember suicidal tactics, though, and certainly not playing according to ones worst enemies playbook.

But mass media wasn’t around in the Renaissance…

Yeah… but they’re still bombing civilians. The “human shields” thing makes no sense. Israel was bombing apartment buildings before they helped create Hamas.

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

Why not? Literally just give any explanation. You didn’t even try to explain in your first comment how “happiness” has anything to do with this.

Strategic bombing - ie, the indiscriminate bombing of populated areas - was ineffective and immoral, and people at the time condemned it as such, and they were right to do so. It was also wrong to use Japanese cities as testbeds for nuclear arms. There was no real strategic reason to do it.

So like… don’t do that? Maybe Israel shouldn’t do that, because fucking obviously?

Like yes, there were bad states on the allied side in WWII as well. You can see that in how they conducted themselves after the war was over, and at many points before that. In fact the policies of the Nazis were directly inspired by US genocides.

You’re not going to trip me up by bringing up the Nazis. I said states are the enemy of the people, and I meant it.

None of what I said should be construed as support for the fascist axis powers, that should just be obvious, but I’m sure I have to say it, because people are just going to try it on.

Nah. Don’t let the current situation fool you. You’ve seen that I’m very pro-Israel in my other comments. But there are many of us that are lefties through and through. I mean most Jews in the US lean slightly left of the democrats. I lean further. And David ben Gurion was super leftist. Hardcore socialist commie pinko, that one. If I had been around for the founding of Israel, I’d probably have been kicking back on a kibbutz somewhere.

But the right is definitely not our friend. Most of them support Israel for christo-fascist dreams of the apocalypse. They want to use us. And we should be careful to think that we are the ones using them.

I do not know where you are from, but especially concerning the US and Europe, I do think it’s important to understand where this support comes from – even if they don’t actually know it either. It’s the underdog problem. Israel is much stronger than in the past. We have won many wars against people who wished to murder us all. We became a force to be reckoned with. And the Palestinian territories are the underdog. And the left has normalized seeing the underdog as the marginalized victim. They are not used to seeing an underdog victimizer. From South Africa to Ireland to PoCs and the LGBT+ communities, they are used to things going one way. And things are not one way. There is a whole 3d plane of possibilities in this world. And that’s why I argue more about Israel than anything else on here. To try to help people see that things are not black and white. This isn’t a left or right issue. This isn’t a David vs Goliath issue. This is something that cannot be boiled down to simple concepts or comparisons. And the more you know, the harder it really is to if not agree with what Israel is doing, to at least understand why they might make the choices they do. And it is not for the sole purpose of ethnic cleansing or genocide. At least not for the majority.