Tankies are fascists, so this isn’t surprising.
Tankie is only ever used when the user doesn’t want to say ‘fascist’ outright, for predictable reasons.
wait til this guy learns about World War Two
tankie means leftist i dont like
To place Russian communism and Nazi-fascism on the same moral plane, in that both would be totalitarian, is superficial at best, fascism at worst. Whoever insists on this equation may well consider himself a democrat, in truth and in the bottom of his heart he is in fact already a fascist, and certainly only in a hypocritical and insincere way will he fight fascism, while reserving all his hatred for communism.
- Thomas Mann
NO U
Stunning. Incredible take.
Also they said fascism, not nazi-fascism. Tankies aren’t nazis. They excuse completely different genocides than the holocaust.
Russia is an oligarchy, not a communist state. Where have you been since the 1990s?
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Yes very well articulated. He even managed to use democrat as an insult. Stunning and brave.
They said tankies, not Russian communism.
Everybody knows russian communism is marginally better than fascism, except those who survived it and fascistly say it’s as bad.
There’s no such thing as Russian communism. They never were communist and never will be communist. They liked the word communist. Or at least saying it a lot. They liked also pretend that it was their aspiration to become communist. But no Marxist leninist government has ever or will ever achieve communism. But they will ruin its name with their hypocritical Behavior.
There is a difference between a fascist and a Marxist leninist. But they are both authoritarian. So it isn’t massive. And if you cross the end group in either one your life is forfeit.
It’s true because Thomas said it?
Edit: Nice downvotes but I would actually like to know his reasoning.
Then read Listen Germany!
deleted by creator
The real nazis were the friends we made along the way.
Poignant, thanks.
Lol that is such stupid nonsense wtf 😂
Found the tankie
Tankies are not fascist, they are just willing to do whatever it takes to defend the socialist revolution.
If you’re willing to do “whatever it takes” including instituting fascism, you’re a fascist.
A socialist revolution by definition cannot be fascist, fascism is a far right movement and a socialist revolution is far left movement they both have authoritarian aspects, but are polar opposites as far as the goals of each movement. Socialism is for the benefit of all, fascism is for the benefit of the few.
Also I’m not an accelerationist and am voting for Biden, there is no where near enough class conciousness in the States for a Prolitariat Revolution to occur, but once that critical tipping point is reached I think Landlords and Billionaires should get the wall if they refuse to peacefully give up their hordes of wealth and property for the common good and that the revolution should be defended by any means necessary.
Fine, I will grant you, you aren’t fascists. Fascists hate people and want to kill them.
Tankies love “the revolution” more than the people they want to benefit. You may not see it as breaking a few eggs to make an omelette, but when you sit out an election where the fascists have a better than coin flip odds of seizing power, you are effectively letting them do that. And if you’re willing to let trans people die in camps for… what was it? “Enough class consciousness to build” then… well, fuck you and your revolution.
Like, also this reveals your total all encompassing privilege. Because look dude, if the fascists are putting trans people and immigrants into camps, do you really think they will spare you? Or do you just think you’re white enough that you’ll go under the radar until your “revolution” happens?
Also, fuck any revolution that involves taking up the tools and institutions of power. Those need to be ground to dust
Tankies are like NRA lunatics that dream with the chance to shoot somebody, but are scared to try alone.
I’m not sure about that; I think a lot of radicalizing discourse of late comes from the same place. Life under late stage capitalism is hard, and people are not sure why, nor can they articulate it. And they can tell it’s getting worse. Its a rife breeding ground for fascists, but when you hit leftist spaces, the tankies have the biggest net. You’ll be greeted by r/socialism, and find yourself in its web of subs. You might get pulled in by a Gravel Institute video (especially since you might be aware of Prager U and are interested in a video from the other end). It might be Chapo Trap House. And a lot of entry points into Tankie spaces are extremely compelling. For a lot of people, it will be the first anti Imperial talking points they will ever hear, with no liberal “but this is the greatest nation” filter.
I think this content is actually good and useful. The USA is guilty of myriad atrocities that its citizenry doesn’t know about, or the full depth, or doesn’t think about in order to get through their daily life.
But then after you get past that, the Tankie reveals himself to be “Anti Nato” without an cohesive political or moral position, in a very “politics as a team sport” kind of way. Russia is a moderately sized challenger to NATO, so they love it. It is also a successor state to a Red Empire. Ukraine is NATO making overtures to NATO, so they don’t like it. Israel is an imperialist NATO outpost, and they are committing a genocide, so of course they don’t like it, but so many tankies have shown their whole ass diving into Antisemitism, making fun of Jewish names, or Jewish influence on policy, that Ive exited most of the tankie spaces I was still in. Antizionism is not antisemitism, and they are antisemites.
But compare that to China, where they deny a genocide because it is being perpetrated by the largest challenger to NATO and still nominally communist state in the world, and you have your answer.
But compare that to China, where they deny a genocide because it is being perpetrated by the largest challenger to NATO and still nominally communist state in the world, and you have your answer.
In fairness most people deny the genocide claims made by the anti=China think-tanks.
the Tankie reveals himself to be “Anti Nato” without an cohesive political or moral position
Opposition to NATO is a cohesive political position. We’re happy to explain our views when people are willing to hear us out, generally though, people just want to put nonsense into our mouths and then call us nonsensical.
but so many tankies have shown their whole ass diving into Antisemitism, making fun of Jewish names, or Jewish influence on policy, that Ive exited most of the tankie spaces I was still in. Antizionism is not antisemitism, and they are antisemites.
As usual about accusations towards tankies, there’s no link. Show your receipts or stop making stuff up.
I’m not going to try to read on your ideology, but I think you’re missing why people dislike tankies.
It’s not that they are against NATO, Israel, US, Ukraine… Or that they support Russia, China…
The problems are two:
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Absolute belief that the world is black and white, and that their side is a paragon of virtue and quality of life, and human rights… Any and all criticism is “western propaganda”. This means anything they can’t deny is the others side fault “Zelensky is to blame for defending” and “Israel is to blame for attacking”.
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Beyond just “excusing” the atrocities, they love them. Anybody who opposes them is a valid target. They might rationalize it in some cases, but in the end there are no innocent civilians unless they support them.
Edit: I’ve seem to have hurt some tankies feelings. Good.
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Lol what? Please tell me what exactly i said that implies im ok with trans folks and immigrants being rounded up in camps?
Such as justifying capitalist oligarchs that pretend to be socialists like Putin and Xi.
Actually, Putin doesn’t even pretend to be socialist. He’s pretty unashamedly capitalist. Tankies love the guy anyway.
Funny how the self-proclaimed vanguard of the radical left are just incoherent anti-western reactionaries wearing Marxism like a fig leaf, isn’t it? Like, I’m all for breaking down the current neoliberal capitalist hegemony, but you’ve gotta have a hole in your head to want to replace it with a literal crime syndicate masquerading as a government or an oppressive hyper-capitalist dictatorship with imperialistic ambitions.
I’m all for breaking down the current neoliberal capitalist hegemony
What would you replace it with?
An interesting question, with (I think) a range of viable answers, in the angels-on-pinheads sense of pure theory. I personally think the sweet spot would be a broadly social-democratic system where basic industries are socialized to varying degrees, a regulated free market exists for novel industries and goods we would think of as “discretionary spending” items, and the market regulator has the capacity to move industries gradually from the latter category towards the former as they mature and become foundational to the society and economy.
How are Marxists-Leninists preventing Social Democracy? They aren’t organized, they have no viable political parties, as far as I know, they don’t even hold any state, or federal offices. It seems your complaints are with the neoliberals that are firmly in control.
Hate “tankies” all you want, but they are irrelevant to what is happening in America. This is punching down because people feel hopeless while facing a Trump re-election. It is unproductive and detrimental to building the unified coalition needed to fight fascism.
Are you confusing my argument that “tankies are useful idiots for authoritarianism whose actions have no relationship with their professed values” to imply that they’re somehow in the driver’s seat on anything? Or hell, that they’re even sincere Marxists?
Tankies don’t give a fuck about socialism.
Tankies, just like other fascists, are willing to do whatever it takes to gain and keep power, including pretending to support socialism
If I was to give this point of the benefit of the doubt (which, to be clear, I don’t) what you’re saying is that tankies are accelerationists. And I get it, to an extent – a comfortable middle class isn’t going to be concerned about the depredations of the right until they start to find themselves in the crosshairs – but the last time fascists got their way in the world, more than 73 million people died. Arguing, in effect, that the aftermath of another world war will be better for the survivors is a… challenging point to defend when it requires you to dismiss the deaths of a significant percentage of the world’s population, especially when those most in danger from a rising right wing are those that a supposed left-winger should most want to protect. Sacrificing religious, ethnic, and sexual minorities on the altar of a better future for religious, ethnic, and sexual minorities doesn’t sit well with me.
Defending a revolution is not accelerationism. I have no idea how you got that from what they said, or generally where this idea of tankies being accelerationists comes from, it seems to be mostly something people make up about us. Accelerationism is stupid and reactionary.
Accelerationism is stupid and reactionary
So is Donald Trump.
Yes, he is. Not sure what that has to do with the incorrect claim that tankies are accelerationists.
Most tankies on lemmy spend a lot of time arguing for people to do things that lead to Trump bringing much of fascism to America. Not sure if you’d noticed.
I haven’t noticed any tankies supporting Trump, no.
Whatever it takes including sending tanks after people because they don’t agree with your rule or am I missing something? Tankies is literally authoritarian or do you mean that your ideology is different and you want people to stop calling you that?
You have a choice between 1) capitalism that’s free for all, fuck the earth, fuck the workers, fuck the consumer, disband the EPA, OSHA, FTC, or 2) capitalism that’s regulated, with environmental protection, worker protections, minimum wages, workplace standards, product regulations, etc. The choice should be obvious.
If they’re voting for Biden then why are they saying they won’t vote for Biden and are encouraging others not to vote for Biden? 🤔
I mean some might be fascists from like 8chan RPing as tankies. If I recall like a white republican congressman had a sockpuppet where he pretended to be a black guy.
You have to assume a certain amount of pro-trump stuff is straight up BS
Such as allying with the fascists so hard that Stalin was in talks to join the axis before Barbarossa.
project 2025 is not a socialist revolution
Lol, which is why historically they have coalitioned with the right to murder the socialists before the socialists could take power.
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Luke 23:34
Part my ramen and I’ll fight you, mate.
Stalinism wasn’t counter-revolutionary?
Is that in the meme? In my opinion, Stalin was counter-revolutionary to Marxism:
Thus, as Trotsky long ago foresaw, the successes of planned economy at home and the advances of the revolution abroad sharpened the internal contradictions of Soviet society, bringing them to explosive political expression against the totalitarian regime of the bureaucratic oligarchy that usurped power following the death of Lenin
But I don’t reject what he was trying to achieve, as I don’t reject what Xi is trying in China. Don’t let Perfect be the enemy of Good.
Achieving absolute perfection may be impossible; one should not let the struggle for perfection stand in the way of appreciating or executing on something that is imperfect but still of value.
You’re implying that more capitalism is progress.
It can be. Capitalism as an economic system is efficient at raising industrial standards. Capitalism, as a tool for industrialization isn’t bad.
The problem with capitalism is that it strains social relations within the system by producing inequality of wealth distribution.
Technology-driven changes in production make new social forms possible, such that old social forms and classes become outmoded and displaced by new ones. Once, the dominant class were the land owning lords. But the new industrial system produced a new dominant class: the capitalists. source
Capitalism isn’t evil, it’s a tool. But the social relations capitalism creates is oppressive, and will be dismantled.
Not that meme is wrong, but the account that posted that comment is 3 days old and is clearly a troll.
There are a bunch of regular posters here that think the exact same way.
You can see by the 85% like ratio on this post that 15% of this community thinks this way.
I’m neither a tankie nor a maga but disagree with it. This weird all or nothing, “if you’re not with us you’re against” us shit is toxic. It’s toxic to you and your goals.
You’ll have to lie in the bed you shit in, but hopefully you manage to see who took the shit instead of blaming whatever group you can to not take responsibility.
I mean as if these people aren’t all just trolls to some extent.
It takes either great malice, great idiocy, or a great and terrible combination of the two to be a supporter of this shit.
We need a new name for Russian state sponsored spam other than “troll”, which should be restored to the original status as a perpetually online nerd who enjoys starting arguments.
I call trump supporters Redcaps after the especially blood thirsty kind of Goblin
What’s a similarly degrading fantasy creature that’s known for being a mindless parrot of whatever is said to it by its master? Or would that fit the people who fall for the state trolls better?
Thrall.
Grom, more like.
Most trolls are state sponsored narrative promoting spam now so the perpetually online nerd who like starting arguments should get a new name.
How about artyom?
Nah, there’s folks actually named that, a lot of whom are very against this all.
It’s gotta be a creature or a thing or some other kind of title for it to work best as a generalized name.
What’s wrong with vatnik ? I don’t see that used much anymore and it felt more appropriate, imo.
Didn’t land enough as an insult
So how have we established this is even a ‘Tankie’ to begin with?
powerful “leopards eating faces” energy from the tankies. I wish them luck with the anti-communist death squads outlined in project 2025
They’re Tankies, their entire ideology is feline face eating based. Russia SO KNOWN for how well it treats minorities and LGBT people!
Tankie in 1956: Getting into your T-90 and driving across the Hungarian border to brutally suppress an uprising of (coughnationalcough) socialists protesting Soviet occupation
Tankie in 2024: Getting into your PSA Bronto and doing donuts in your neighborhood cul de sac blaring “Don’t Vote for Joe Biden” out of a megaphone, until police show up and drag you off to prison for violating a noise ordinance.
1·4 months agoThis is historically incorrect. The T-90 didn’t enter service until 1992. They would have gotten into T-54/55s or T-44. Possibly even T-34s?
Wish the people emulating (knowingly or unknowingly) the ideology of Ernst Thälmann would look a little harder at how that worked out for both Germany and him.
Wishing the people emulating (knowingly or unknowingly) the ideology of the SDP would look a little harder at how backing Hindenburg instead of Thälmann worked out for both Germany and them.
Ok, first of all it’s the SPD, the SDP is the UK. Oh yeah, obviously it was the moderate democratic socialists who supported democracy that were to blame and not the stalinists who openly allied with Nazis to dismantle the democratic government. And guess what, most of the KPD that made it to the Soviet Union were killed by Stalin or handed back to the Gestapo anyways, what great people they followed.
The KPD declared the SPD their greatest enemy, not the other way around.
I will concede the KPD responded more appropriately to Hitler taking power, but it was too fucking late then anyways. Even the KPD internal resistance had pretty limited effect. At least the SPD operated the government in exile.
The SPD was more than happy to paint the KPD as their enemies as well, the rift between them started with the SPD’s unconditional support of WWI and violent suppression of antiwar efforts. The KPD did not ever “openly ally with the Nazis,” that’s just a bold faced lie.
Somehow, the only people who tried to stop both world wars, and the only people running an anti-Hitler candidate in 1932 get painted as the bad guys. It’s absurd the kinds of mental gymnastics you have to go through to get there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Period It was pretty easy to paint them as the bad guys when they fully aligned with Stalin, before then, yeah, totally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Germany#The_Third_Period_and_"social_fascism"
“In August 1931, to capitalise on their growing popularity, the Nazi Party launched a referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. At first the KPD correctly attacked it. Then, three weeks before the vote, under orders from Stalin’s Comintern, they joined forces with the fascists to bring down the main enemy, the Social Democrats. They changed the name of the plebiscite to a ‘Red Referendum’ and referred to the fascists and the members of the SA as ‘working people’s comrades’!” http://www.marxist.com/germany-sewell-chapter-7.htm
My dude, they absolutely did, the KPD enabled Stalin to facilitate the rise to power of the Nazis by allying with them to fight the SPD. Fuck Tankies.
Are you basing your comment on the idea that stalin is as bad as hitler? Cause thats some ig’nant ass shit to see on lemmy.
The SPD were just as happy to equate the KPD with the Nazis as the KPD was to call the SPD social fascists.
Voting alongside the Nazis on a referendum is not the same thing as “openly allying with the Nazis.” The status quo at the time was austerity in the middle of a massive economic crisis, it was fundamentally unsustainable. The KPD didn’t want the Nazis to be able to dominate opposition to that. It’s true that they underestimated them, but the answer was not (as the SPD did) throwing their weight behind austerity measures for the sake of stability, it wouldn’t have changed a single thing if they had.
It still remains the fact that the person who put Hitler into power was Hindenburg, who was backed by the SPD.
The thing is, i promised my mom and my history teacher id never vote for a genocider, so my hands are tied. If dems want to run someone who isnt the literal definition of evil, i wouldnt have to vote for trump. Its insane how dems love to use the lesser evil argument right up until theyre convincing us to vote for a genocider.
I thought tankies live in countries like China and Russia.
Can you define US tankies please?
They’ll actually cheer on for those death squads. If they had their way, they would have their own death squads. Marxists are infamous for their tyranny, genocide, forced deportations, engineered famines, purges, labor camps, hate, and secret police death squads.
Marxism and fascism are sister ideologies because they ultimately want the same things but just from slightly different angles.
Marxism: History is defined by material conditions and value comes from appropriated labour which workers are entitled to. Thus society should be oriented around collective ownership of the means of production in order to elevate the material conditions of the worker and usher in a new age of history. It is inevitable that the owning class will resort to violence to maintain their position and so this change will be a violent struggle. Eventually the state itself should be abolished once the transition is complete. Also this is inevitable because umm science wand wave.
Fascism: Power should be centralised on strong men wiling to make hard choices, everyone else should live subservient to the state. Military power, an ethnonational identity, and autarchy are the highest pursuits. Concession and concensus are weakness, might is the ultimate expression of power and violence for the glory of the nation is beautiful. Modernity is degenerate and we should idolise a mythologised past based around an ethnic group we claim the mantle of.
SleezyDizasta: Could these be the same? 🧐
SleezyDizasta: Could these be the same?
That’s stupid, that’s not what I implied. I said that they’re sister ideologies that desire the same things just with different approaches, and that’s objectively true.
Fascism was started by Mussolini, who was an infamous Marxist for most of his early life. He used to write for Marxist papers, be an avid Marxist activist, attend Marxist meetings, and even got arrested for rioting for Marxist causes. He, like many other socialists at the time, was against war. However, over time he came to the conclusion that war might not be a bad thing. If wars happened more frequently, it could bring about the social climate necessary for revolutions to happen that would end European monarchies and replace them with socialist systems. However, his ideas were rejected by the other socialists and he was shunned by them.
Mussolini started shifting away from other socialists over what unites men. Socialists believe it’s class, but Mussolini started shifting towards the nation. He and his supporters starting gravitating towards revolutionary nationalism… Professor Anthony Gregor from UC Berkely described Mussolini’s nationalism as the following:
Mussolini’s revolutionary nationalism, while it distinguished itself from the traditional patriotism and nationalism of the bourgeoisie, displayed many of those features we today identify with the nationalism of underdeveloped peoples. It was an anticonservative nationalism that anticipated vast social changes; it was directed against both foreign and domestic oppressors; it conjured up an image of a renewed and regenerated nation that would perform a historical mission; it invoked a moral ideal of selfless sacrifice and commitment in the service of collective goals; and it recalled ancient glories and anticipated a shared and greater glory
Mussolini’s Fascism was very clearly heavily influenced by Marxism. He used a lot of the same ideals, a lot of the same terminology, similar rhetoric, and similar types of analytical lenses. In fact professor Gregor notes that Mussolini’s viewed Fascism as a type of socialism, or rather as the successor of socialism:
“Fascism was the only form of ‘socialism’ appropriate to the proletarian nations of the twentieth century”
Even though Mussolini eventually parted ways with Marxism all together. His opposition to them wasn’t because they were socialists but because they were anti-nationalist. Despite declaring Marxism a failure and socialists as opposition, he still thought and constantly talked about how Fascism was about poor nations rising up against the plutocrats.
When I say they’re sister ideologies, they literally are.
Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_nationalism
It’s almost like someone who was a Marxist made a new ideology that was not Marxism, had separate goals to Marxism, aligned itself against Marxists, didn’t adopt the social or economic policies of Marxism, but clothed itself in the language of Marxism.
Did you know that Marx was once just a random journalist? Does that mean Marxism is a sister ideology to newspaper businesses? Marxists do write stuff afterall!
It’s almost like someone who was a Marxist made a new ideology that was not Marxism, had separate goals to Marxism, aligned itself against Marxists, didn’t adopt the social or economic policies of Marxism, but clothed itself in the language of Marxism.
Yeah no shit, they’re different ideologies. I’m just pointing out that they’re similar, I’m not saying they’re exactly the same.
Did you know that Marx was once just a random journalist? Does that mean Marxism is a sister ideology to newspaper businesses? Marxists do write stuff afterall!
This isn’t even logically coherent.
They’re not at all similar… Like… wtf. All you can say is one violent thug followed Marxism and then stopped follow Marxism, did something completely different, while saying stuff that sounded like Marxism because he knew it sounded good.
Just dot point me, pick idk 5 core areas and just write what fascists proposed vs what Marxists proposed.
I legit cannot thing of anything with overlap except
- violence is sometimes good (literally even pacifists believe this)
and
- people united in purpose can wield power (again not at all at unique hypothesis)
What have you got?
Okay here you go:
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Authoritarianism is not only acceptable but is encouraged. In fascism this comes in the form of a totalitarian dictatorship and in Marxism it comes in the form of an tyrannical transitional government that rules with an iron fist to establish socialism and bring about the social climate necessary to realize communism (dictatorship of the proletariat).
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Ideology revolves around common enemies - In fascism this comes in the form certain ethnicities or nationalities while in Marxism it comes in the form of classes.
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Bitterly oppose materialism - Fascism opposes materialism because it is deemed to lack acknowledgement of the role of the spirit, while Marxism opposes materialism because it is deem to be a key engine in class warfare.
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Bitterly oppose individualism - Both ideologies revolve around the concepts communality and unity, and so they see individualism as a threat to their core ideological views.
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Explicit support of political violence - You’re trying to water it down, but both support widescale poltical violence. Marxism calls for a violent revolution that overthrows capitalism by burning down the capitalist system and institutions (literally and metaphorically) as well as killing the entirety of the bourgeoisie (democide). Fascism calls for political violence as legitimate way to gain power and achieve aims, which includes getting rid of undesirable national, ethnic, racial, or religious groups (genocide).
There’s more, but you asked for 5.
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I think someone with a violent streak a mile long even as a child who became fascinated with populist revolutionary ideologies creating a new populist revolutionary ideology does not really make it inherently twinsies with previous populist revolutionary ideologies other than that they are both exactly that. I think it’s pretty clear in hindsight that what Mussolini was really interested in was gaining power in a populist revolution, no matter the cost or method.
Obviously, with the power of hindsight, we can see that Mussolini didn’t end up being the socialist that he was in his early days. However, it’s still interesting to the influences of Marxism on Fascism as an ideology. They do share a lot of characteristics despite their many differences. This is why the claim that these two ideologies are polar opposites isn’t true. They’re different? Sure. Polar opposites? Not exactly.
I’m not sure you know what Marxism or Fascism are… I think you just think everyone who doesn’t think like you is pure evil.
There have been a lot of killings and deaths that were intentionally to further goals that were claimed to be Marxist; Lenin and Stalin both had a lot of blood on their hands, as did Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Fidel Castro (after the revolution, I mean), and so on.
Authoritarian communism ends up being pretty bad for people that communist in the wrong way, along with everyone that isn’t communist.
Feels like colonialist capitalism has been pretty bad for an awful lot of people that aren’t the owning class too… What with the MANY genocides and the CIA
Sure, it absolutely has, and the CIA and American foreign policy has done some truly awful things. But there’s scale and scope as well; the American gov’t, by and large, hasn’t been jailing political dissidents solely for political dissent since the 30s or so. Political dissidents don’t tend to end up committing suicide by falling out of 1st floor windows, or drowning in bathtubs. We don’t arrest or dissappear anyone running against the president. We haven’t had concentration camps for our own citizens since the 40s (and hoo boy, those were pretty fucking awful, and we should be ashamed of them).
Yes… No argument with that part.
Not true at all, I have zero issues with people who think differently. However, I do take big issues with these two failed authoritarian ideologies that ended killing tens of millions each and brought nothing but misery everywhere they went. As it turns there’s more to politics than these two shitty ideologies
So naturally you realize that, despite authoritarian “communism” as practiced by the Soviet Union and China, inspired by Marxist-Leninist thinking and then by Stalin and Mao are just one interpretation of Marxism (which is one interpretation of communism/socialist theory) that diverged significantly in embracing something more resembling state capitalism and enduring dictatorship, whereas Marx viewed the dictatorship of the proletariat as simply describing the revolutionary transition to a classless society.
Actually, not true. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels were both notorious authoritarians, and it reflects pretty heavily in their ideology. They were both well known for being very pro violence and pro power grabs, so much so that they were infamous for it. They’re pretty well documented for the ways they used to mock pacifist socialists at the time for not being as extreme and violent as they are. Socialism as a concept has a lot of different interpretations, but Marxism? Not so much.
Potentially violent revolution =/= authoritarian. Also Marx believed that in more democratic and free nations that nonviolent ways of achieving communism was actually plausible, he just didn’t believe so for most of the world. He just had very little faith in existing power structures allowing the proletariat majority to take power away from them nonviolently, especially outside of a few already very “left” leaning democracies.
Damn dude, stop making me argue in favor of pure Marxism, I’m not even a communist, I’m just a bit left of social Democrats personally.
Marxism didn’t stop at the revolution though. Marxism can be simplified to 3 overarching steps:
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A violent revolution that overthrows capitalism where the economy is seized, capitalists are eliminated, and capitalist institutions are burned down (literally and metaphorically).
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The dictatorship of the proletariat is established. This is where a transitional authoritarian socialist government takes hold of the states and rules with an iron fist to establish socialism and bring about the social climate necessary to achieve communism by any means necessary.
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Actually realize communism
Since step 3 is a utopia that won’t ever happen, the ideology will always end up at step two. That’s why every single Marxist attempt that hasn’t failed during the revolution phase will inevitably hit a brick wall when a the tyrannical transitional government gets hold and never leaves. All the tyrannical regimes we’ve seen aren’t coincidences, they’re an integral part of the Marxist ideology. Maoist China is what Marxism looks like when it’s implemented down to the letter… and it ain’t pretty. Again, both Marx and Engels were both very vocal and notorious authoritarians who specifically advocated for this stuff. They went out of their way to mock and criticize pacifist socialists who wanted to make progress without bloodshed via things like reform. This isn’t some secret, it’s pretty well documented.
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And where will you be? Standing on the sidelines letting it happen, or will you be the one to pull the trigger?
probably getting shot for not wearing enough religious flair. Any half decent strategist knows you only choose the quick path when you have overwhelming power.
Countries that aren’t the US of A exist.
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I would encourage Fascists and Marxist to destroy each other so the world can finally be free of these two parasitic ideologies.
I know right, neoliberalism is utopia. /s
Sure beats Marxism and Fascism
Sure beats Marxism and Fascism
Rich… considering it’s coming from somebody who understands neither.
There’s a 100% chance that I know more about than you… You know since I’ve actually studied both in college. But I’m sure an armchair professor such yourself with a PhD from Lemmy’s echo chambers knows better than my professors.
You know since I’ve actually studied both in college.
Which college was that? Prager U, maybe?
If you did, you’d actually sound as if you knew anything about the subject matter at hand.
But you don’t - which means you didn’t.
How?
It’s killing us slower?
Well it’s quite simple really, you have three choices:
Fascism: A failed murderous ideology in both theory and practice that has killed tens of million and has done nothing but bring tyranny, poverty, famine, hate, and genocide everywhere it went.
Marxism: A failed murderous ideology in both theory and practice that has killed tens of million and has done nothing but bring tyranny, poverty, famine, hate, and genocide everywhere it went.
Neoliberalism: A very flawed ideology that takes economic freedom to an extreme and puts too much faith in unregulated free markets.
Sounds like a no brainer choice to me.
Broad generalizations, I can’t argue against that. Defeated by vaguery again.
Your biases are showing, honey.
Has anyone else noticed that a shit ton of .ml bots have been very active here over the last day or so? These accounts aren’t new. But they also haven’t been active in these communities.
Harris may replace Biden and they have to try to get people predisposed to not voting for Harris either.
Its really funny too because they think saying “Tankie just means people I dont agree with” doesnt immediately out them as a Tankie trying to muddy the waters. Thanks for letting me know you’re actually a hexbear!
Reminds me of when Hexbear would flood into any political discussion to sew discord and chaos.
Sew it into what?
Is “Tankies” a new term? I’ve never heard it before a week or two ago.
It’s decades old. Refers to people who support communist regimes regardless of what they do. Originally because the Soviet Union used tanks to quell rebellion and some people in the west still cheered for them.
I believe it was coined by the British left when the USSR quashed the Hungarian revolution by driving tanks through their streets. Anyone still in support of them is deemed a “tankie.” Nowadays it was meant to criticize authoritarian communists.
when the USSR quashed the Hungarian revolution
quashed the Hungarian communist (democratic worker) revolution; lowercase.
Right, right, they were like “you’re not doing it right!”
Was it from the Soviet Union? I always assumed it was a reference to justifying Tianamen Square.
I guess that more you know.
Yup, it even predates Tiananmen Square by a few decades IIRC
I’ve seen it a lot more often after joining lemmy
That is because you joined a social media platform made by socialists.
Yup, when I first joined I wanted to join lemmy.ml because “oh I like machine learning”.
Those were the days…
Expecting ML to mean machine learning, when signing on to lemmy, must have lead to confusion, maybe shock.
I picked it because it had open signups and were high up in some random list, I promptly switched lol
Ah yes. Lemmy.ml, the instance about machine learning…
Havent heard that one.
It’s members certainly talk like chatgpt
you being funny? It’s 68 years old this autumn.
I apologize I’m only up to ‘s’ in my quest to memoriz3 every fucking word ever used in the English language. 🙄 The fuckin word, “meme” is like a million years old. It doesn’t mean it was as regularly used in conversation before social media. On a different note, for how many other languages use Lemy how would you know English is my primary language?
You shouldn’t be getting downvoted for asking a question. Asking genuine questions are good
I started to see the term around the time of the Russian invasion of ukraine
Is that when you joined Lemmy? Because Lemmy is infested with Tankies, and you’ll hear someone calling them out before long
edit: Spelling Errors
No, but considering Lemmy overall has grown 5800% in active monthly users in the first month the Reddit protests began, it’s safe to assume most people haven’t been here much longer than that lol. How long have you b3en using Lemy? 20 years? 50 years? Lol /s
I joined during the Reddit migration and ended up dealing with Tankies almost immediately. Before Lemmy I always thought most Communists would claim that true communism hasnt happened yet, I was NOT expecting people who aggressively protected safe spaces and didnt allow any level of words that could be considered slurs to think that Russia and China have done nothing wrong and are super great countries
Yeah I have been hearing the word “tankies” thrown around since joining during the great migration, too. I still don’t understand what the term means lol
Its a communist who thinks Russia and China are ideals to follow, easy enough to understand.
The current use of it to mean “people I disagree with” is.
Lmao
Go to nonvoters
See votes on comments and submissions
Now I kinda want to start a community called c/illiterate or c/incommunicado 😄
Love the idea of the community. It hurts my brain if I stare at it too long, but in a good way.
One of the awesome things about a community like this is that when tankies post their unironic takes, we can just pretend to agree with them and make them look like fools.
Yeah let’s spread their memes and upvote their content ironically #lol #pwned #trolled
Removed by mod
The rise of MAGA communism has so much weird meme magic. It’s surreal.
I even saw the original comment. Can’t remember where though.
Horseshoe theory proven right yet again
Y’all don’t even know what tankies are anymore.
Just mention the Red Terror
Should work as repellent for tankies and russian specific trolls
For country specific trolls you need to mention something that is censored locally there that the trolls are afraid of their supervisor seeing which leads for some people mentioning massacres like “Red Terror” or “Tiannamen Square” and that is the reasoning behind it
Tankies will just that those who suffered or died deserved it.
Que all liberals on lemmy.world falling over each other to prove they don’t actually have a clue what a tankie even is…
*Cue
My mind is kinda blown by this. I always thought it was “queue”, so “queue all liberals saying such and such” would be like “all liberals are going to line up to say such and such”, but cue works!
I consider myself corrected, smartypants.
This place is fucking illiterate
Biden perhaps shouldn’t have enabled a genocide, just saying.
Also the correct term is Arab Americans
How Arab American voters’ backlash could imperil Biden’s 2024 campaign
In Michigan, for example, Biden won in 2020 by 154,000 votes. Census estimates put the state’s Arab American population around at least 278,000.
Biden won Arizona by 10,500 votes. The Arab American population in the Grand Canyon State is estimated to be 60,000.
Biden took Georgia by 11,800 votes. The Arab American population there is at least 57,000.
Inside Biden’s Broken Relationship With Muslim and Arab American Leaders
Biden losing Arab-American voters in swing state
‘The man broke my heart’: Biden’s Arab-American boosters begin to leave his side
The fact that liberals would rather strawperson Arab and Muslim Americans and anyone else repulsed by the genocide than acknowledge the reality and try to stop it is hard to understand beyond it being based in racism and chauvinism. What group of people would vote for the person enabling their own genocide?
Edit: While Marxist-Leninists, i.e. Tankies, do exist in the US they never constituted a significant voting bloc that can sway elections, they always opposed the Democratic Party even before the genocide. Minorities such as Arab Americans -mostly Christian- and Muslim Americans do constitute a significant voting bloc that can sway elections and they used to be a consistent voter base for the Democratic Party in past elections.
In Michigan, Muslim and Arab American Voters Reconsider Support for Biden
The dismissive racism and genocide apologia by liberals is going to cost you Arab and Muslim Americans for more than one election cycle. I wish you had some self awareness and empathy to realize it.
Final Note: This is not meant to elicit debate and I don’t need an explanation on how elections work in the US or why the US will support Israel no matter what it does regardless of who is president. I am just sharing another side of the story that seem to be purposefully ignored.
I cited agreeable news source and articles and yet this comment is getting downvoted. I guess liberals would rather invent a strawperson they can easily take down than acknowledge they are losing among minorities in swing states.
Just look at the number of voters considering third party candidates:
Exclusive poll: Black voters aren’t thrilled with Biden but dislike Trump more
Let me change around your words and then shame you for the new position I created for you. Oh, and don’t bother debating me, I’m only interested in the sound of my own voice
Look, Im trans. If he loses, Im the one getting genocided. Its perhaps a mirthless disposition, but I am absolutely willing to put off Palestine so I dont get shot, and probably so you dont get deported tol btw
I’m simply stating the facts as they are, it is not my fault that the Democratic Party lost Arab and Muslim American voters.
but I am absolutely willing to put off Palestine
How would this argument win over Arab and Muslim Americans? You are basically saying: “I don’t care if you get genocided but you have to care about me”. On the upside as the polls show, Trump is even more unpopular than Biden so you can’t blame us if Trump wins, blame those who voted for him.
so I dont get shot
Arab and Muslim Americans are already getting shot. My personal recommendation is start exercising your 2nd amendment rights:
so you dont get deported
So be it but only if Darrell Issa is deported first
Because those exact same fears I have should apply to you personally too. We have exactly two options. One will kill us both, and the other wont. Getting to say I told you so while were in a camp isnt helping Palestinians now is it?
Since when has the American main stream media been tankies? Sounds like you’re doing everything you can to cope. But keep banging the drum of “he isn’t Trump”. It will surely work.
Right?
That’s enough to save America?
Those are your words. You better be right.
Since when has the American main stream media been tankies?
American main stream media has stated that they will not vote for Biden? Is American main stream media in the room with us right now? Can you point him out?
Those are your words.
When and where did I say them?
Are you really trying to act like mainstream media isn’t scared shitless right now of Biden’s presidential run? Are you blind or just trying to stay ignorant on purpose?
How am I acting like that?
